tencorp vs trader_dante - discussion

[nine]

Tidying the thread up including those asking for the irrelevant posts to stop.

We appear to have a challenge. So please stop the irrelevant posts.

Thanks,
Nine. :medieval:

 

[tss42]

Nine,
My post asking Tencorp to disclose his website is probably worth reinstating?

 

[TheTick]

Trade #1:

Long GBP/USD at 1.9976
Stop at 1.9948

Risk = 28 ticks

Chart 1 shows the market has reversed within a s/r pivot zone.

Chart 2 shows confluence with the 50 fib from the swing low.

Intrigued by this. Will you be posting only the actual trades you make or each signal given? Obviously in reality account size will limit the number of trades you can have at a given time, but in theory with a big enough account you could take them all.

 

[omni]

Actual trades only.

 

[TheTick]

Actual trades only.

Fair enough. Good luck then, T_D.

I personally am extremely skeptical of something with a 600 pip stop no matter how quickly they come in - one rogue trade will bring the house crashiing down.

 

[TheTick]

I will post every signal given providing that I see and call it BEFORE it has triggered.

It is important to note that I am not actually taking these trades with real money because I am on simulator at a prop firm and prohibited by company rules from trading my own account.

I am using the strategy that I have outlined in my thread and would certainly take them if I was allowed.

That makes sense to me - as I said your approach is only limited by account size restricting entering multiple trades. If "The Competition" won't let you know the size he's trading, you can't know his exposure at any given time and therefore what account size he must have to be able to take trades.

 

[Mathemagician]

Fair enough. Good luck then, T_D.

I personally am extremely skeptical of something with a 600 pip stop no matter how quickly they come in - one rogue trade will bring the house crashiing down.

600 pips is the house?

jj

 

[TheTick]

600 pips is the house?

jj

Depends on account size. I don't know many traders willing to take a trade with a 600 pip stop simply because they can't afford to lose that much. If Tencorp's systems first trade is a 600 pip loser, he'll need deep pockets to fund his next potential 600 pip loss:!:

 

[Mathemagician]

Depends on account size. I don't know many traders willing to take a trade with a 600 pip stop simply because they can't afford to lose that much. If Tencorp's systems first trade is a 600 pip loser, he'll need deep pockets to fund his next potential 600 pip loss:!:

That's putting the cart before the horse, isn't it?

The market should dictate the stop levels not the trader's account. Attempting to do the reverse will ensure that one's stops are too tight and choke the life out of a good entry. Death by a thousand cuts, and all that. The proper way to take account size into account is to adjust position size, even to zero if need be. There's nothing wrong with not being able to afford a trade, but there is something wrong with forcing a stop that is too tight simply because one can't afford to trade an idea properly.

Beyond that, 600 pips is not a large sum for most successful traders. Only tencorp can know in this case whether or not it is appropriate for him/her. Given that he/she is trading this system, we must infer that his/her account is appropriately sized for this level of risk. If not, that will become apparent over time, leaving trader_dante victorious by default.

jj

 

[Hoggums]

Can we not have pips won - but percentage of original account won as the benchmark.

E.g. dante might be trading to win on average 30pips per trade, and tencorp 300. If dante's trade size is > 10x that of tencorp then he'll actually make more money but tencorp will claim victory via pips.

You should also take account of overnight interest charges if holding long term positions.

 

[Mathemagician]

The most well-organized trading competition I was ever a part of had the following setup:

1. All participants start with a $100k real money account (funded by the organizer)
2. A drawdown of 20% on initial capital results in redemption
3. A daily peak-to-valley drawdown of 30% results in redemption
4. Whoever has the highest account balance at the close of the period wins

If you'd like I would be happy to make further suggestions for a fair playing field.

jj

 

[TheTick]

That's putting the cart before the horse, isn't it?

The market should dictate the stop levels not the trader's account. Attempting to do the reverse will ensure that one's stops are too tight and choke the life out of a good entry. Death by a thousand cuts, and all that. The proper way to take account size into account is to adjust position size, even to zero if need be. There's nothing wrong with not being able to afford a trade, but there is something wrong with forcing a stop that is too tight simply because one can't afford to trade an idea properly.

Beyond that, 600 pips is not a large sum for most successful traders. Only tencorp can know in this case whether or not it is appropriate for him/her. Given that he/she is trading this system, we must infer that his/her account is appropriately sized for this level of risk. If not, that will become apparent over time, leaving trader_dante victorious by default.

jj

Fair enough. Agree with all the stuff about position sizing and being able to afford a loss and also that zero is an acceptable size. My point is that Tencorp is trying to sell something and it's conceivable that the first trade could lose 600 pips. Fine for a successful trader, but I'm fairly certain they wouldn't be interested in buying the system anyway. For novice traders that's a pretty large number of ticks - what happens when they are 300 offside ... then 400 ... and if the trade goes 500+ offside, but makes 50 ticks, is it a good trade?

Looking at it another way, if the trade is 500 ticks offside then either there was potential to take a trade in the opposite direction or at least achieve a better entry.

 

[Mathemagician]

All good points. Let's save that discussion for another place and time and enjoy the competition!

jj

 

[TheTick]

All good points. Let's save that discussion for another place and time and enjoy the competition!

jj

OK - agree with that.

Incidentally, the suggestions on how to judge the competition certainly make it a much fairer contest and will give meaningful results.

 

[candles]

Nice one, TD.
I took the same trade on my new demo account
(I think you two should have opened demo accounts with these guys to keep it all neat and tidy but never mind)

 

[Mathemagician]

...why not do this from a spreadbetting perspective (x amount per tick) which is actually the vehicle that the majority of my clients use to access the markets...

...but right now i don't have the money to trade it which is why i am selling the signals to raise capital.

Pardon my ignorance, but don't spreadbetters allow you to trade with as little as 1p per tick?

jj

 

[Mathemagician]

nice trade dante. although shame you couldn't hold it as it's now well over 30 ticks higher than when you sold it. it seems like you use a lot of discretion in your trading. having a system takes that discretion element away and means you don't second guess yourself or end up with any kind of inner conflict. you put your faith in statistics which you have obtained from rigorous back testing.

ok - to answer a few of the points on here. i think it would be important to judge the winner by seeing how much money they have returned on an initial balance. for ease i suggest we have a theoretical account balance of £10,000 and rather than calculating lot sizes for each of the different contracts which would be time consuming, why not do this from a spreadbetting perspective (x amount per tick) which is actually the vehicle that the majority of my clients use to access the markets. that way we can position size more efficiently. i don't think slippage will play a part as the majority of my entries and exits are done in stable conditions. overnight charges are going to make things complex but i don't really have the inclination to start logging into demo accounts to place "actual" trades to see what the rollover costs would be.

ultimately it means little whether dante beats me. i know my system is profitable. i have evidence of that. the only reason i challenged him is because he riled me enough by suggesting that all vendors are cowards. i am sure some of them are but equally some of them are not. yes some system vendors are crooks who know they are defrauding people, others are more genuine but simply don't have enough experience and knowledge to backtest a system properly and therefore have no idea, at least in the beginning, that their systems are going to crumble once they are rolled out under live conditions. but there are some who have something good. this is what i have but right now i don't have the money to trade it which is why i am selling the signals to raise capital.

Hmmm... You probably should have stopped at "nice trade dante." There are a few red flags here. Most notably, rigorous backtests include such inconveniences as slippage and rollover charges. Execution is everything! I would not be surprised if dante does not wish to participate in a competition in which he is forced to execute and his competitor is presenting an idealized backtest. The playing field is simply not level under those conditions.

jj

 

[candles]

Lets just see how he does. He still has to post his trades like TD has and already has one pending. Fair enough. Lets let 'em get on with it

 

[firewalker99]

Great idea this thread and I wish both competitors best of luck

May the best man win! But let's keep in mind that anybody who can display something that's consistently profitable, is already a winner...

 

[tss42]

Because Tencorp is clearly unwilling to disclose his website or company info, this competition is meaningless.

I now suspect he is using a fake identity. He is an existing member. I am ready to bet my bottom dollar.

If he screws it all up, he will simply disappear and nobody will ever hear from him (or from that id, more accurately) again.

If he makes some money, fantastic advert for his then-to-be-disclosed website!