If this board refreshed continually when you posted, these crossovers wouldn't happen so often.
Hmm, I think that that is a bit much to as Sharky though
Hey Sharky can we have the boards constantly refresh but our 'post' windows stay static whilst we type. Nah, don't think that is going to happen.
Hmm, I think that that is a bit much to as Sharky though
Hey Sharky can we have the boards constantly refresh but our 'post' windows stay static whilst we type. Nah, don't think that is going to happen.
frugi
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Sometimes on YM at an obvious chart support level you will see (on market depth) a large bid 5 -10 ticks below support and if the price is pulled down through support towards this large bid (as stops just below support are triggered) a few players try and front run the large bidder by buying a tick or two above him, which temporarily slows the descent. At which point the large bid is pulled, the price quickly drops 3 or 5 more ticks only to then suddenly shoot up as the large faking bidder (who was a buyer all along but wanted it a little more cheaply) soaks up last of the selling and quickly takes the price back to test the support level. It can be quite fun to watch
frugi
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Indeed It's often me. I'm not trading live for a month as I'm determined to get to the bottom of their nasty games. Hmm, might as well stick wings on a swine and hurl it out of the window, safe in the knowledge that it has enough swill and aerodynamic ability to reach Botswana.. That said, depth is becoming my friend, albeit excruciatingly slowly. Lev 2 will always defeat me though, I'm sure ... simply too much to take in ... teach a Fran to hook for Ross and he will be happy enough, though only marginally profitable
Anyway, I thought this thread was about foxes :cheesy:
It's often me. I'm not trading live for a month as I'm determined to get to the bottom of their nasty games. Hmm, might as well stick wings on a swine and hurl it out of the window, safe in the knowledge that it has enough swill and aerodynamic ability to reach Botswana.. That said, depth is becoming my friend, albeit excruciatingly slowly. Lev 2 will always defeat me though, I'm sure ... simply too much to take in ... teach a Fran to hook for Ross and he will be happy enough, though only marginally profitable Anyway, I thought this thread was about foxes :cheesy:
Mr. Charts
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I thought I'd wait a little longer to see if anyone else wanted to have a go.
The stock was approaching its high of the day and I was looking to assess whether to go long.
When abnormally large size appeared from cinn on the bid it seemed likely to me this was someone using the ECN wanting everyone to think she was a buyer.
Now you can come up with all sorts of theories about what and why, some plausible, some not.
However, what was the actual market action that ensued? In the next few seconds the number of shares being bid for on cinn at that best bid shrunk rapidly with sells printing off on T&S. Within seconds the price fell 10c as bids were pulled/hit. Then it stabilised and lo and behold back came a big buyer on cinn again.
This time the supply on the market had dried up and the demand pushed the price up, it took off north and continued to rise a whole dollar.
So my way of using level 2 and T&S and reading bid/sell pressures - what I have referred to as micro-analysis - (and this is one very small example of many common scenarios) involves "reading" what actually happens incorporating my experience, not taking everything at face value or having a fixed "opinion" but seeing how the market reacts to different influences - and trading accordingly. It might sound complex, but it's like learning to drive. Once you know what to do and what usually happens, experience enables you to anticipate future activity with a high degree of probability - like anticipating road conditions and events before and as they start to happen.
You could say that this is BEYOND "price and volume" (and I refer specifically to trading Nasdaq shares here - nothing else) so you can often anticipate price action and volume BEFORE volume registers or any chart indicator suggests anything.
HTH
Richard
The stock was approaching its high of the day and I was looking to assess whether to go long.
When abnormally large size appeared from cinn on the bid it seemed likely to me this was someone using the ECN wanting everyone to think she was a buyer.
Now you can come up with all sorts of theories about what and why, some plausible, some not.
However, what was the actual market action that ensued? In the next few seconds the number of shares being bid for on cinn at that best bid shrunk rapidly with sells printing off on T&S. Within seconds the price fell 10c as bids were pulled/hit. Then it stabilised and lo and behold back came a big buyer on cinn again.
This time the supply on the market had dried up and the demand pushed the price up, it took off north and continued to rise a whole dollar.
So my way of using level 2 and T&S and reading bid/sell pressures - what I have referred to as micro-analysis - (and this is one very small example of many common scenarios) involves "reading" what actually happens incorporating my experience, not taking everything at face value or having a fixed "opinion" but seeing how the market reacts to different influences - and trading accordingly. It might sound complex, but it's like learning to drive. Once you know what to do and what usually happens, experience enables you to anticipate future activity with a high degree of probability - like anticipating road conditions and events before and as they start to happen.
You could say that this is BEYOND "price and volume" (and I refer specifically to trading Nasdaq shares here - nothing else) so you can often anticipate price action and volume BEFORE volume registers or any chart indicator suggests anything.
HTH
Richard
SOCRATES
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I have not had time to read all the posts on this thread since my last one because I am very busy.
But I have spotted the statement made by Mr Charts on the above post and I quote:~
You could say that is BEYOND "price and volume"(and he refers specifically to trading Nasdaq shares here ~ nothing else) so you can often anticipate price action and volume BEFORE volume registers or any chart indicators suggest anything.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, because it is perfectly correct and applies to any liquid market.
It requires degrees of skill, however, which are in the domain only of those very advanced and expert in the particular instruments in which they have chosen to specialise in.
I now hope this puts paid to silly arguments going on elsewhere as to price and volume being all there is.
I am gratified not to be the only who is able to do this, as this makes me feel less of a freak in here.
Kind Regards As Usual.
But I have spotted the statement made by Mr Charts on the above post and I quote:~
You could say that is BEYOND "price and volume"(and he refers specifically to trading Nasdaq shares here ~ nothing else) so you can often anticipate price action and volume BEFORE volume registers or any chart indicators suggest anything.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, because it is perfectly correct and applies to any liquid market.
It requires degrees of skill, however, which are in the domain only of those very advanced and expert in the particular instruments in which they have chosen to specialise in.
I now hope this puts paid to silly arguments going on elsewhere as to price and volume being all there is.
I am gratified not to be the only who is able to do this, as this makes me feel less of a freak in here.
Kind Regards As Usual.
SOCRATES
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I am busy in between calls. I have only just seen this.Mr. Charts said:
I would not be surprised to see the price suddenly plummet, stop falling and then creep up again to the previous level, and, depending on market conditions surrounding the instrument in degrees of collective and individual bullishness, perhaps go higher still.
After that,. this would depend upon what further availability existed during the recovery from the low, and commensurate with the supply demand situation unfolding, so proportionately the intensity and duration of the rise.
The added impulse of momentum at that stage could not be ruled out as well.
Kind Regards.
peto
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Mr. Charts said:
Thanks for the interesting insights.
Are we saying then that it was an successful attempt at a double bluff.....in that the large bidder realised that no one would believe she was really a buyer, and consequently would sell to her and pull their bids quickly lowering the price, at which point she could clean up by doing her 'real' buying?
It all seems horrendously devious , but I 'm reassured by your analogy of learning to drive, where experience eventually gives us insight into what happens next. Only trouble is most road users don't deliberately set out to confuse others (well apart from BMW drivers, obviously). I fear that I would be caught in the headlights during the L2 learning process a little too often....
pete
Mr. Charts
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Hi peto,
"Are we saying then that it was an successful attempt at a double bluff....."
Not necessarily. She could have been a genuine buyer but there was simply too much supply on the market at that moment.
"Only trouble is most road users don't deliberately set out to confuse others"
True. Most analogies break down if pushed too far, but the point is that once you are familiar with the handful of ploys players use, then you can read the market far better. For example if you rely on charts only you might have a success rate with breakouts of say, 60%. By being able to read the market by seeing what players are doing using what I call micro-analysis you can raise your success rate to maybe 80%. This is obviously a huge edge.
"I fear that I would be caught in the headlights during the L2 learning process a little too often...."
The way to prevent that is to practice, practice, practice until you are getting it right most of the time before you trade for real. Even then you start off trading small size till consistent success and profits give you the experience and confidence to trade in size and make money.
This, in my view, is about building the skills and edge required to win. Work and application are required to succeed in most endeavours.
If micro-analysis isn't telling me a CLEAR story, I won't trade the pattern set-up. Im my trading I require one of my set ups, then the trigger.
No set up - no trade.
Set up but no trigger - no trade.
Set up plus CLEAR trigger - trade
Develop the rules, apply them.
In a sense the discretionary element is much less than people think. Again using the driving analogy, if you are about to enter a roundabout you will only do it when you can clearly see it's safe to do so.
Some would say that is exercising discretion and in a sense it is. But there are underlying indications which enable you to safely make that decision. Trading, for me, is the same.
Of course the analogy will break down when you've got people who will enter a roundabout and force traffic already in it to stop or brake. And of course you get people who will accelerate and close up a gap so you can't get in - a ploy a little like MMs. However, with experience you can usually spot those drivers and MMs and act accordingly.
Hello Socrates,
You are certainly not alone in understanding and knowing the existence of factors BEYOND price and volume.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say factors BENEATH or BEFORE price and volume register on most people's minds. I'm sure you know precisely what I mean ;-)
Richard
"Are we saying then that it was an successful attempt at a double bluff....."
Not necessarily. She could have been a genuine buyer but there was simply too much supply on the market at that moment.
"Only trouble is most road users don't deliberately set out to confuse others"
True. Most analogies break down if pushed too far, but the point is that once you are familiar with the handful of ploys players use, then you can read the market far better. For example if you rely on charts only you might have a success rate with breakouts of say, 60%. By being able to read the market by seeing what players are doing using what I call micro-analysis you can raise your success rate to maybe 80%. This is obviously a huge edge.
"I fear that I would be caught in the headlights during the L2 learning process a little too often...."
The way to prevent that is to practice, practice, practice until you are getting it right most of the time before you trade for real. Even then you start off trading small size till consistent success and profits give you the experience and confidence to trade in size and make money.
This, in my view, is about building the skills and edge required to win. Work and application are required to succeed in most endeavours.
If micro-analysis isn't telling me a CLEAR story, I won't trade the pattern set-up. Im my trading I require one of my set ups, then the trigger.
No set up - no trade.
Set up but no trigger - no trade.
Set up plus CLEAR trigger - trade
Develop the rules, apply them.
In a sense the discretionary element is much less than people think. Again using the driving analogy, if you are about to enter a roundabout you will only do it when you can clearly see it's safe to do so.
Some would say that is exercising discretion and in a sense it is. But there are underlying indications which enable you to safely make that decision. Trading, for me, is the same.
Of course the analogy will break down when you've got people who will enter a roundabout and force traffic already in it to stop or brake. And of course you get people who will accelerate and close up a gap so you can't get in - a ploy a little like MMs. However, with experience you can usually spot those drivers and MMs and act accordingly.
Hello Socrates,
You are certainly not alone in understanding and knowing the existence of factors BEYOND price and volume.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say factors BENEATH or BEFORE price and volume register on most people's minds. I'm sure you know precisely what I mean ;-)
Richard
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Mr. Charts
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My pleasure.
Glad you found it of interest.
Richard
Glad you found it of interest.
Richard
my understanding of stop hunting is that assuming in the above example everyone is expecting the DOW to go up they place their stops like good little traders in logical places just below the 10500 level... next a player comes along with enough $$ to move the market towards they stop positions and as the market moves and knocks out the stops it triggers more selling creating a more momentum down... then the player who started this whole thing does the u turn and starts buying at the lower prices as the market recovers and starts heading up.
speculation has it that this is the practice of market makers as they make money from the spreads and they also get to keep their clients losses.
speculation has it that this is the practice of market makers as they make money from the spreads and they also get to keep their clients losses.
