Nausea from HFT price action

[bootsyjam]

You never know you're wrong in trading, you FEEL you're wrong. A lot of that is illusory because of the way highspeed algorithm trading works. Check out a 15 second chart of CL during EPI reports or in the last 5 minute of RTH, that as to be the result of HFT price action, lstop-runs are the way those firms make money.

If I sold every loss I had on the ES for -4 points or -30 points on CL because it felt like price could go lower I would be insolvent. There's no way you can cut losses frequently intraday and remain solvent, costs of trading are too high. If you try being cautiious like that you have to end up developing a trading product for income. I want to trade for income.

If you don't want to be affected by HFTs then don't trade short term. Don't look at anything less than a 5 min chart.
Hft algos don't affect swings, they only get you if trading v short term. So don't trade short term.
I'd be surprised if there are any HFTs operating in gbpusd futures-have you seen the daily volume? They can only operate in highly liquid.markets-gbpusd isn't one of them

 

[tommog]

The vast majority of people that blame their losses on HFTs are not losing because of HFTs. Sure they killed off a lot of edges such as lifting the offer as its about to go bid to get you long the bid. Markets move instantly off the news so you don't get to jump on the move and with so many market makers on every bid/offer its very hard to spot where there's a big order sat in the book.

But these are a small number of 100's of different strategies.

Explain to me exactly how HFTs have stopped you earning intraday? Genuine question because if you can show me a specific pattern they employ..such as running stops and I'll show you a profitable strategy. If stops being run (which has always happened way before HFTs) then wait for levels to break and enter where the suckers are exiting.

I've been prop trading for 11 years and I've seen a lot of edges die off. But nearly all because other people figured them out and became saturated. But trading off charts has never been an edge in my opinion. I've worked with 100's of traders and can count on one hand the amount of people that made a lot of money odf technical analysis.

 

[tomorton]

tommog - agree about moans and groans about HFT - if we can't see it, how can anyone prove its to blame for what might be just poor trading? The majority of traders weren't making money before HFT either.

But TA not providing an edge?

 

[tommog]

tommog - agree about moans and groans about HFT - if we can't see it, how can anyone prove its to blame for what might be just poor trading? The majority of traders weren't making money before HFT either.

But TA not providing an edge?

Hi Tomorton,

There are very few definites in this industry so only speak from experience. But like I said I've been prop trading around 11 years. In that time I've met 2 or 3 systematic technical traders that made money. But 90% of the money has come from order flow scalping, exploiting anomolies around certain times of day and spread trading where you're just looking at correlations and finding when certain markets go out of line.

Not saying there aren't people out there that can stick a load of indicators on a chart and make money I've just never seen it in outright trading. Spreading is a bit different as you're looking at ranges of correlations.

 

[dbphoenix]

Hi Tomorton,

There are very few definites in this industry so only speak from experience. But like I said I've been prop trading around 11 years. In that time I've met 2 or 3 systematic technical traders that made money. But 90% of the money has come from order flow scalping, exploiting anomolies around certain times of day and spread trading where you're just looking at correlations and finding when certain markets go out of line.

Which is exactly what technical analysis is. Equating technical analysis with indicators deprives the trader of a vast field of knowledge regarding price movement.

 

[Windlesham1]

I have just read Micheal Lewis's Flash Boys- which explains how HFT works

 

[darktone]

 

[darktone]

and enter where the suckers are exiting.

hallelujah!

 

[tommog]

Which is exactly what technical analysis is. Equating technical analysis with indicators deprives the trader of a vast field of knowledge regarding price movement.

I was referring more to people that just buy because there's a level, or because a moving average has crossed

 

[dbphoenix]

I was referring more to people that just buy because there's a level, or because a moving average has crossed

But they aren't technical traders, much less technical analysts; they're marks.

 

[petetrades]

Hi Tomorton,

There are very few definites in this industry so only speak from experience. But like I said I've been prop trading around 11 years. In that time I've met 2 or 3 systematic technical traders that made money. But 90% of the money has come from order flow scalping, exploiting anomolies around certain times of day and spread trading where you're just looking at correlations and finding when certain markets go out of line.

Not saying there aren't people out there that can stick a load of indicators on a chart and make money I've just never seen it in outright trading. Spreading is a bit different as you're looking at ranges of correlations.

Most of my issues with HFT are self-inflicted. Holding positions and entering positions at the open and close of the day and right after reports, such as weekly CL report or monthly ES fed minutes, I guess competing with fast computers has an attraction to gambler personalities.

My advice: Looking at the DOM in general is a bad idea due to HFT, I can't believe Jigsaw trading is as popular as it is since HFT is so dominant now.

 

[piphoe]

hallelujah!

will you explain this chart pls? the point you are trying to make escapes me.

ps get rid of that meme pls. ty

 

[piphoe]

PA is a lot more jiggy since debut of HFT. a thousand algos jumping all over every tick banging price to & fro like a millisecond ping pong game makes it much harder for a carbon-based trader to make some coin before he gets bounced out.

thats what i'm talking about

 

[darktone]

will you explain this chart pls? the point you are trying to make escapes me.

Its simple pip. Weve the late to game shorts and 'out on stops' long pukers liquidating sub 10460. I wana be the guy who is helping these suc... traders out of their positions. As prices turn around (as they do nearly all the time) weve the late to game price action ross hook break taking confirmation seeking longs looking to get in and the sub 10460 shorts puking their stops. I also wana help these guys out too. Trading is all about helping each other.

ps get rid of that meme pls. ty

If thats a pretty please with sugar on top, I cwot I can do :clover::cheesy::clover:

 

[piphoe]

my gawd darkie your "signature" is ridiculous; triggered my epilispy

can you cram in anymore crap??

 

[tommog]

Most of my issues with HFT are self-inflicted. Holding positions and entering positions at the open and close of the day and right after reports, such as weekly CL report or monthly ES fed minutes, I guess competing with fast computers has an attraction to gambler personalities.

My advice: Looking at the DOM in general is a bad idea due to HFT, I can't believe Jigsaw trading is as popular as it is since HFT is so dominant now.

To be honest opens closes and news releases are when i do 90% of my volume and the guys I work with. Thats the main times inefficiencies emerge.

Although ive never personally used Jigsaw that is the type of stuff we look at. Spotting a hidden seller accumulating size or seeing stops get run for a quick pop can get you entries with 1 or 2 ticks risk. Ive never seen a chart entry that can give you that precision.

 

[petetrades]

To be honest opens closes and news releases are when i do 90% of my volume and the guys I work with. Thats the main times inefficiencies emerge.

Although ive never personally used Jigsaw that is the type of stuff we look at. Spotting a hidden seller accumulating size or seeing stops get run for a quick pop can get you entries with 1 or 2 ticks risk. Ive never seen a chart entry that can give you that precision.

What do you use, X Trader Pro? Ninjatrader and Jigsaw is no better than thinkorswim or multicharts imho, stone age tools in this HFT era

 

[darktone]

 

[piphoe]

darkie, i didn't say its imposiible just that its a lot harder trading against 1000's of algos

 

[tomorton]

Currently HFT is just a small percentage of Forex Liquidity but the number of contracts is rising rapidly. High frequency systems used mathematical equations that allow it to trade various different positions and even a small move makes profit.
Because of Signalstime I get to know about HFT better the mathematical equation involved in the system you don’t need to think about other information such as support and resistance.

There you are, that wasn't so hard, was it?