Mechanical Trading possible ?

I should have stuck to the post that I deleted.

I have nothing to gain by discouraging people following the mechanical route. It will only lead to abuse and aggression in the long run.

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I find this whole black & white approach to arguing about mechanical systems quite amusing. There are 2 very distinct groups here - those who say it's not possible & those who say it is possible yet we have spent no time defining what "it" is.

An automated/mechanical system does not need to be left unattended constantly. For instance, just as you'd ignore technicals at 8:30 am Eastern time on Thursday when the unemployment numbers come out, so you would tell your automated system not to trade at that time. You'd switch off your automated system and that is something you do manually.

In my opinion a decent system should have a lot of options - set the times you allow it to trade on any day , set a risk adjustment for any day depending on your confidence level, tell the system to only take trades in a certain direction etc. These options are all set at the discretion of the person using the system.

System components such as oscillators are interesting. People often ask which oscillator settings are best. From what I have seen - there are no best settings because they depend on the pace of the market and that changes over time. Most of the common oscillators are basically the same to within a bar or so. A system that uses oscillators would more need some parameter tweaking when the markets changed pace and the person using the system would need to keep on top of that.

So - if you can tell your system which indicators to use, tell it what times to trade, tell it to risk adjust down on a day you aren't comfortable, tell it to only take trades in a certain direction.... what do you have at that point ? An automated system ? An execution system ? A semi-discretionary system ?

In my opinion - this is what a mechanical system is and I think it can be achieved with the correct programing skills. You cannot buy a black box system because you will not be able to maintain that system as time goes by. At best you will have something that works for a while and then starts to fail.

A mechanical system should be an extention of your own discretion. You can't buy such a system, you need to create it yourself and it does take some fairly advanced programming skills. I would argue that any trader would benefit from some level of automation - for instance if you use complex position sizing/money management rules, it's much easier to let the system calculate that and much safer too.

If we are talking about a black box that you turn on, don't maintain & it churns out money forever - I would doubt that is possible. If you are talking about a system that can be told which kind of setups to take, how to calculate position size, targets, stop loss etc. then I think that is possible. Basket trading is much simpler with a mechanical system as manually calculating the risk & position for the elements in your basket can be quite time consuming and error prone.

Anyway - that's my 2c.
 
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Well said pedro01

The World is not always black and white New_Trader .....

How many 100% return daytrading margin trades occur per week for your mechanical system New_Trader? About ten or more for me...with several being 200%+ per week - see the PDF attached to this post. To those that have mechanical systems that return 100% per year, great....I prefer to use a little discretion and consistently return 100% by noon daily...to each his own.

The OVERSOLD condition behaves differently in a bull market than in a bear market, for instance. A "little discretion" means you refer to the trading rules and documentation (4 or 5 pages with a few different trade setups). In a bull market your long setups easily overcome oversold conditions; In a bear market that is falling 20%+ you flat out ignore the oversold conditions until your overbought condition is stopped out.

In the meantime, my non-discretionary Kindergarten Trades ARE mechanical in version 2.2 - it's just a matter of how many points of profit you take before you start scaling out. You get the SAME mechanical signal within a minute on the TWO charts you are using - thus lowering risk substantially, since both views of the market coincide.

Trends behave differently than Trading Ranges, so anyone that doesn't use some discretion in the futures market is likely missing out on a lot of profitable points per day, imo.

Sorry my trading solution doesn't conform to your narrow view of the World, New_Trader...I prefer to try to learn something new every day, and have fun doing it!

SK
 

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A mechanical system should be an extention of your own discretion. You can't buy such a system, you need to create it yourself and it does take some fairly advanced programming skills. I would argue that any trader would benefit from some level of automation - for instance if you use complex position sizing/money management rules, it's much easier to let the system calculate that and much safer too.

If we are talking about a black box that you turn on, don't maintain & it churns out money forever - I would doubt that is possible. If you are talking about a system that can be told which kind of setups to take, how to calculate position size, targets, stop loss etc. then I think that is possible. Basket trading is much simpler with a mechanical system as manually calculating the risk & position for the elements in your basket can be quite time consuming and error prone.

Anyway - that's my 2c.

Well Said !!!!

IMO a Mechanical System should contain all the elements needed to trade successfully. The benefit once implemented is that day-to-day Trading should be less emotional than discretionary as one simply follows the systems signals and don't have to worry about other external factors (*1)

This for me was the main reason why I decided to journey down this path......

(*1) This assumes that these "external" factors have (to some extent) already been catered for during the testing phase.
 
Coming Out of the Closet

For the past five or six years I have been a discretionary day trader. Every order has been entered by hand ... well by click.

I started this because I was convinced that day trading was way to make real money trading. Why? Because in microswing day trading you get 3-6 opportunities per day per market. So if you risk 2% every time your return per day is much higher than in EOD trading where the 2% might only be risked once a week.

But I was pretty convinced it had to be hand driven. So I commenced learning. And at that stage I loved spending 3-8 hours a day watching the markets.

I learned about trends, how to read them with mas, how to read them with lines and channels, how to read them with market profile concepts. I learned about pullbacks and I learned a lot from the trend dynamics course. I learned about profit improvement on entry and the conditions that would suggest a conservative or an extended target.

Then I learned all the stuff that Mark Douglas talks about: getting out too early, getting out too late, entering without a signal, failing to enter with a signal, fear, frustration, boredom and all the secrets that lie within myself and come out when pressured to make very quick decisions with your money and your ego on the line. This generated a thread of mine: Useful things I've found on the net

After 4 years where I evolved from gbl to euro to hsi the HSI made a huge change of its nature when a bunch of big swinging disks from China bought megayuan to the market and totally screwed it up. So I went in search of another market. And I found two, the Aussie SPI and the Taiwanese STW. They were half as fast as HSI so two wasn't too difficult. And I adapted all the things I'd learned on HSI to these two; and three months later I had two great variations on my original strategy and was sucking the bucks from them.

Then came the GFC and the markets halved their ranges and STW became a little too quiet so I checked out HSI. Well the bsd's from China has burnt their yuan and it as back to normal almost. So now I'm trading HSI again although I'm better than ever because I had to evolve to the other markets ... and that learning has come back with me.

BUT. Damn it. I don't enjoy the process of trading 1m charts any more.

What to do?

OK. Time to apply my brains instead of simply my attention. Two weeks ago I decided that my exits were the most mechanical part of my strategy and that because SierraChart now permitted you to control the IB TWS interface with dlls I'd write some code to mechanize my exits - I'd still enter intelligently but I'd let the computer do the exit. After a week and a half I had code that was doing it quite well. And wow, it was a joy not to have to track the market intensely for the 3 minutes it usually takes me to close a position (for 50 points targeted). Exiting mechanically brings these advantages:

- it saves you 3 minutes four or five times a day (yes, hardly worth the hours of testing and programming)

- it prevents entrainment in the market during the time of risk (steenbarger talks about the problem that people face changing behaviours because they decide what to do in one mental state but then try to do it in another one) thus reducing emotionality & thus stress & propensity to make errors

- to change an entry into a straight gamble (one of the things that makes trading harder than gambling is that a gambler sees the chance, takes the bet, and then sits back to see how it runs; a trader because he then manages the position has much higher chance of self-blame and can't see it as a simple bet because he can do (usually wrong) things that affect the outcome.


So, wow, I put the trade on and then I sit back and watch the horse. I'm rooting for it but if it loses, well it lost. Such is life.


Then, 4 days ago, I thought, why not mechanize my main entry (I have two and the other one is to put a limit at a critical point and wait to see if the market will take the bait). On my main entry I'd sometimes miss it - often when I shouldn't. So I thought that if the exit was so much fun I'd program in the entry too. Well it turns out that after I get an entry signal there are 4 different limit points at which I can take the trade and they are determined by 5 different decisions about market micro-timeframe structure. No wonder I missed the odd trade ... I had less than 30 seconds to make the decisions, validate them, and place the correct order.

So now, when the trend is up and the structure is right, I just press a button and "Buy" or "Sell" appears on the chart. The software waits for the entry signal and when it gets it, in microseconds it calculates the correct one of my four entry points and submits it to IB.

Two days now. Wow, its relaxing. I've rediscovered the computer program and its a labour and stress saver.

Next step. I think I can program a state machine that will generate a series of entries as long as a) conditions don't tell it that the trend is suspect, and b) I don't remove the "Buy Sequence" command because I have decided that conditions might have changed.

So I will check the market from time to time to make sure that conditions are such that "in the old days" I'd be looking for trades and as long as that holds ..
I'll just watch the fire. :cheers:
 
I have a mentor that is helping me to trade purely based on price action. I currently trade a discretionary system that gives a signal - the signal can last a few bars and I'll take a long if I get a higher low as confirmation (opposite for shorts).

Now - I can wait like a hawk with reptilian reflexes (a Hawkocodile), waiting for my bar to close with a higher low before pouncing. I can rely on my reflexes OR when I get my setup signal, just kick this script off...

Code:
input : TradeStopLoss(3), TradeTarget(3), NumContracts(3);
vars : Trade(true);

if marketposition = 1 then trade = false;

if trade = true and barstatus(1) = 2 and lastbaronchart and low > low[1] then
	buy NumContracts contracts next bar at market;

setstopshare;
setstoploss(tradestoploss * bigpointvalue);
setprofittarget(tradetarget * bigpointvalue);

Even in manual trading, a little bit of code helps !!

This is just to put things in perspective - it's a very small piece of code but it proves a point. It stops me from either pressing the button too early or too late. It makes the decision in microseconds and it NEVER presses the wrong button.

Code can be used to help you trade. How far you go with it is up to you.
 
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...discretion is the better part of valor....computers are like adding machines - let them do the grunt work, but always check the total before making the deposit..

If you choose a futures index that is significantly hedged by multiple long term players, the index you day trade will not have wild liquidity swings or "random" numbers that wreak havoc with your trading rules, stop losses, profit objectives. I've traded in size on the Mini Dow - frequently 300 contracts at a time - with no liquidity issues, but I only trade "institutional stops". The biggest consistent trade size I've seen is about 800 contracts, he gets filled about 400 or so at a time.

If you do your due diligence on what index you trade, you will not have to change futures contracts ...cuz the unexpected isn't going to happen.

It is good to be brave, but it is also good to be careful.; If you are careful, you will not get into situations that require you to be brave

The Mechanical DayTrader
 
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If you choose a futures index that is significantly hedged by multiple long term players, the index you day trade will not have wild liquidity swings or "random" numbers that wreak havoc with your trading rules, stop losses, profit objectives.


The Mechanical DayTrader

How do you know if an index is "hedged by multiple long term players" ?
 
How do you know if an index is "hedged by multiple long term players" ?


ya gotta pay for that info...lol ! "market technicians" know money flow, institutional stops, and have time-tested critieria for OVERSOLD and OVERBOUGHT conditions and when those conditions end. Unless you know money flow and have well-defined OVERSOLD and OVERBOUGHT conditions, you have no business day trading, imo. You are likely to lose your shirt ..and the boat..and the ....

Cheers!

The Mechanical Day Trader
 
ya gotta pay for that info...lol ! "market technicians" know money flow, institutional stops, and have time-tested critieria for OVERSOLD and OVERBOUGHT conditions and when those conditions end. Unless you know money flow and have well-defined OVERSOLD and OVERBOUGHT conditions, you have no business day trading, imo. You are likely to lose your shirt ..and the boat..and the ....

Cheers!

The Mechanical Day Trader

The question was about hedging not overbought and oversold conditons.
 
The question was about hedging not overbought and oversold conditons.

???? :eek:the question was about HOW to determine if a market is hedged...I gave him the answer...(actually a couple answers) ..one of which sailed right over your head dcraig1....You can't measure hedging unless you know money flow; you can't measure money flow unless you can identify OB and OS conditions with rigid mathematical models.

One great thing about Forums is you can definitely spot those that KNOW and those that DON'T ! Be careful out there folks!

The Mechanical Day Trader
 
???? :eek:the question was about HOW to determine if a market is hedged...I gave him the answer...(actually a couple answers) ..one of which sailed right over your head dcraig1....You can't measure hedging unless you know money flow; you can't measure money flow unless you can identify OB and OS conditions with rigid mathematical models.

One great thing about Forums is you can definitely spot those that KNOW and those that DON'T ! Be careful out there folks!

The Mechanical Day Trader

Ahh .... , it seems you are using the term "hedge" in a metaphorical fashion rather than a technical fashion.

OK, Mr Big Swinging, I've heard read this stuff before. You posit a market paradigm with the big players - institutions, hedge funds and whoever else you want to to throw into the mix on one side and the little guys - private traders and the like - on the other. So if the little guy can just tell where the big guys are putting their money, then they are 'In Like Flynn".

Problem is the "big guys" don't run a cartel. Futhermore the "big guys" trade with each other because there is nobody else to trade with - that is where the liquidity is.

There is a reason that most institutions don't deliver market beating returns.
 
"One great thing about Forums is you can definitely spot those that KNOW and those that DON'T ! Be careful out there folks! "...

not really sure about the rant by dcraig1 but....

...the institutions take both sides of the futures market - the difference is one side is exiting a trade the other side entering a trade...the retail portion of the market is getting stopped out (the institutions can figure out where the stops are). Intraday trading displays multiple points of retail capitulation. Institutions make money off of retail capitulation daily.

High Performance Daytrading is not for amateur tire kickers or emotional ranters....keep the emotion out of why you take a trade as much as possible..but have fun properly entering at the appropriate point of cycle highs and cycle lows!

Cheers Everyone !!

The Mechanical Day Trader
 
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"One great thing about Forums is you can definitely spot those that KNOW and those that DON'T ! Be careful out there folks! "...

not really sure about the rant by dcraig1 but....

...the institutions take both sides of the futures market - the difference is one side is exiting a trade the other side entering a trade...the retail portion of the market is getting stopped out (the institutions can figure out where the stops are). Intraday trading displays multiple points of retail capitulation. Institutions make money off of retail capitulation daily.

High Performance Daytrading is not for amateur tire kickers or emotional ranters....keep the emotion out of why you take a trade as much as possible..but have fun properly entering at the appropriate point of cycle highs and cycle lows!

Cheers Everyone !!

The Mechanical Day Trader

Have you actually got anything to say at all ? Other than the snide remarks ?
 
OK, Mr Big Swinging, I've heard read this stuff before.

...those that engage in name calling have no room to complain...

You posit a market paradigm with the big players - institutions, hedge funds and whoever else you want to to throw into the mix on one side and the little guys - private traders and the like - on the other.

A wildly inaccurate statement by dcraig1....Institutional Traders control both sides of the market that I trade...

Problem is the "big guys" don't run a cartel.

The market that I trade is technically correct 24/7 - obviously it is safely manipulated so both sides of the market can enter and exit smoothly. IMO, dcraig1 is mixing metaphors & terms with no real knowledge or factual basis of how the MIni Dow market creates, retraces and reverses on institutional stops.

High Performance Daytrading is not for amateurs, name callers or for those that seem frustrated in life...it requires cool, calm decision making - one should be self critical of past missed trades or losses, so regular improvement of daytrading performance can occur. Using proven mathematical setups for trade entries minimizes stress, repetitive losses and uncertainty. Choose how you trade the market, let it come to you, coolly pull the trigger and calmly start taking profits.

The Mechanical Day Trader
 
mechanicaldaytrader is clearly a vendor.

Worse than that he's full of bs and subscribes to fantasy based views of the market dcraig. And fantasy based views of his own trading by the look of it. Very impressive to those who don't know the real market truth. Perhaps it will suck in some newbies?
 
mechanicaldaytrader is clearly a vendor.

Worse than that he's full of bs and subscribes to fantasy based views of the market dcraig. And fantasy based views of his own trading by the look of it. Very impressive to those who don't know the real market truth. Perhaps it will suck in some newbies?

that's why 3 new subscribers signed up this week...2 of which read this Forum....

Tell ya what...pick your best trading day next week day trading one contract of whatever futures contract you day trade...then do a screen capture of your trades from start to finish, with beginning and end cash balance...After getting yours, I'll email you mine...just black out your account # (your last name needs to be displayed on the trade history) on the screen shot of your trading history. The trading history should also display the net profit/loss for each trade. Your email needs to display your full name and Skype ID so I will call you to verify what you traded, you can expect the same from me.

Send the email to me two weeks from today.

If I don't get a email by 5 pm ET two weeks from this Tuesday (March 30th), I'll add a post to this thread stating you did not put up.

The Mechanical Day Trader
 
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Simple:

Successful traders work logically, they don't work on hunches, they have a method which can be expressed as an algorithms. Not saying they have, but I'm certain it's possible.

That being said I doubt you can buy a decent system, and it's not easy to program something fairly successful.

I think most people who don't think it's possible have been disheartened by crap such as FAP, or aren't too clued up on computers.

People didn't think computers could do a lot of things which they can now, we've already solved draughts after all, and it won't be long for chess.

It's nice to think we can do something a machine can't, but I doubt it.
 
I think most people assume a computer based mechanical system is something very complicated and difficult to program and understand and there are many that are, these tend to be the ones peddled by non trading dodgy salesman and invariably they don't work.

The systems that i have seen work and some including the one i trade work very well are all extremely simple and easy to understand, they make sense and are often no more than a simple entry set up that's applied with good risk management, all the trader has to do is follow a simple set of rules and take each trade.
 
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