Making Money Trading

[trader_dante]

Imagine the confusion for the newbs when a bunch of people do EXACTLY the same thing, but one tosses chicken bones, one works behind a curtain that puffs smoke, one uses the LRC and zigzags, one uses pivots, one uses MACD and the final one throws darts !

Hey mp,

Good to see you over here! And I agree with you.

 

[grimweasel]

The majority I know use support/resistance combined with the order book.

Simple technical analysis such as head and shoulder patterns, channels, trend lines and flags are also often metioned as are fibs.

Also there is a lot of positions taken off the back of news. (I wouldn't advise this for the amateur - it is, in my opinion, one of the quickest way to lose your account)

No indicators.

T-D
Many thanks for the above. That kind of confirms what my trader mate said too. The indicators are an added if he is unsure, but he rarely uses them. I need to swot up more on flags, pennants etc. I hear what you are saying about the news. I find it's one of my best times to trade. I always close positions before the news as I find it see-saws dramatically on the announcement, then after a few minutes the news sinks in and the direction becomes apparent. Today's US GDP news was a good example. One minute down for Cable then up again once the news has sunk in.

I binned the indicators today and ended up the day with more than I started with. This style of trading means I'd become a screen slave and I wish to have a life still. I prefer the 1H/Daily setups on Pin Bars etc as it allows you to play golf etc! My account was down 50% at one stage today but I made it back by trading the DJI up and down between the TL's today. Same with Gold.

I now see that having Level 2 access may be beneficial as it allows me to see the order book. You can then apply that knowledge to the chart and see where the orders are lurking. I'd imagine that it must be a huge bonus seeing the potential fills that the market could offer.
Thanks again T-D for taking the time to reply. Good Trading
Grim

 

[TraderGreg]

The simpler a thing is that works the better I like it. I hate over complications; I love simplicity. So naturally I hate indicators! I love only: S/R, Trend lines, (Fib), and PRICE ACTION works!

I learn t about forex one day not too long ago and blew a small account withing 4 days after! I was just looking at charts and trade by guessing the markets likely turns. But this thread showed me to look for pattern in the market! Once I saw a way to trade without indicators, that was for me, I wanted nothing more. I just hate the way they look. The all seem to disrupt the market's actionable information; and they all seem to log. Full stop. I think they just fool you into "predicting the markets". My opinion!

I read all this thread and I am now midway through JAMES16 on FF. I am also absorbing Diallist and following closely. When someone try to teach you emotional based knowledge just take care to listen and practice what you learn. Feel the traders emotional mistakes when he tells you about them and avoid them.

It helps. I am trading live slightly. But .....

I am making some pips by the way! I recovered my fast early losses.

My point here is: indicators are nasty (my thought) and keenly watch and follow the tried and tested traders and remember why you should!

Thanks TD.

 

[mp6140]

MP -- are indicators really "ugly" or do they help ?

What i was taught by the NYC "cowboys" is the H1 for overall trends and major s+r areas, the s+r's on the shorter time frames combined with what you see on the H1, for additional guidance, and the fibs.

Ive added one or two support and resistance thingies to help me, and to use as "alternative" s+r areas (as well as strong confirmation overlays for the previous)

While tons of indicators are not necessary, my little ma crossover/macd divergence indicator serves me well when the mms are "headfaking", as it shows me the TRUTH in whether we have entered a reversal of trend, and so I would not be without it.

I trade with what might be called a "modified" price action system, depending mostly on TREND and s + r with fib assist, BUT the zigzags help me immediately visualize which way the trend should be coming up and the LRC channels speak so much truth about OVERALL support and resistance that to not use them or some version, is to be giving away SO MUCH INFORMATION that it would be a silly thing to do IMO !

Now as a rookie, you see things one way, and are happy to make up for your small losses -- as someone who is responsible for handling other peoples money, it is a sorry day when I cant earn 100 pips X 5 lots or so OVERNITE, while im sleeping, and during the day, seeing 600 pips that way is not rare.

AND I USE INDICATORS, cause i need to know where things are heading and i dont have a "neatness" fetish, only a money one !

LOL -- enjoy and trade well

different strokes for different folks

mp

 

[TheTick]

I trade with what might be called a "modified" price action system, depending mostly on TREND and s + r with fib assist, BUT the zigzags help me immediately visualize which way the trend should be coming up and the LRC channels speak so much truth about OVERALL support and resistance that to not use them or some version, is to be giving away SO MUCH INFORMATION that it would be a silly thing to do IMO !

mp

'Scuse my ignorance, but what are the LRC channels? Never heard of them, and always keen to learn about something new.

 

[mp6140]

'Scuse my ignorance, but what are the LRC channels? Never heard of them, and always keen to learn about something new.

=============================================================

LOL -- my reasons for being negative are often created by just such a statement as you have above --- 192 posts or so, with at least half being pictures and explanations of the LRC, and then theres always one who doesnt know what Im talking about. Not stated as a negative about you, but HOW ON EARTH CAN ONE TEACH IMPORTANT THINGS ABOUT THE MARKET WHEN SO MANY MISS THE POSTS ??

oh well, attached chart shows the channels (GREEN) which are "essentially" nothing more than parallel trend lines, showing top and bottom of the trend the currency is moving in, in whatever timeframe you so choose. DeMark trendlines, an indicator called "SHI channels real", and a couple other trend channels exist out there and do much the same thing, but my personal favorite is the LINEAR REGRESSION CHANNELS, as theyre based on support and resistance AND some mathematical voodoo that always seems to know.

Notice how the price, similar to the bols, wants to move from one side of the channel to the other -- invariably, once a bounce has occurred off of one channel, the price WILL move to the other channel, only problem being news, which can temporarilly keep this from happening, BUT once set in motion the price WILL hit the opposite channel, and the best use of them from my point of view, is to predict overnite trades, as a bottom on the H4 channel that occurs at 2 in the afternoon (EDT) will NORMALLY not actually start its REAL move until MIDNITE EDT, and complete by a bit into the following days US mkt open !

there are a few ways of working with it, such as a shorter timeframe where its easier to simply play moving up and down the channel (s+r will show you a lot) and therefore "playing the channel".

It points out TRENDS immediately, on any timeframe, which allows you to effortlessly trade as long as you trade the trend, and it can show you the downside moves left when you decide to go short, and perhaps miss your exit and then get swallowed up in an intraday upside reversal.

once you use it whole new worlds are opened to you in a completely visual style --- hard to miss whats happening, methinks !

enjoy and trade well

mp

 

[TraderGreg]

Hello MP6140,
I must agree with you that "different strokes" works for "different folks", but it cannot be denied that precision trading comes with focusing in some way or another on the movement of price in the markets. This can be seen with TD's method and it has incredible and "fast" win rates from time you enter into the market; you will know sooner rather than later most times whether you are up for some pips or not. Full Stop.( I would like to know what TD think about this.)(The TD method alone requires a lot of patience but a good PA setup lets you know profitability OR loss quicker. And better for precision money management)

I also have noticed that most of the methods here and in other forums have to narrow down to price settings for a favorable entry even with the most indicator based ones. I believe that if the indicator be cleared and the trader develop some stamina, the same trade could be had. (My thought). Price action tells you there was a turn in the market and 80% of the time from TD'S method we can see that price turns 'profitably' for the trader. This amount of information can not be had from any indicator on a single bar in time (whichever time frame) in the market. ("profitably" = at some point after the trader could have taken some pips no matter how small)

So again yes all traders have their requirements and demand over their trading and time frames for success, I agree; and indicators were developed because those developers knew how it would help themselves with their way of trading, I agree. Can they help with your profitability = yes!

Will I use most indicators on my charts = No way!

Why? Because they do not give immediate and actionable information like price action. One has to wait a few bars away from an entry that would put a bigger smile on my face. when ones method is indicator based. Now, however you trade just make sure you win more that you lose! My thoughts.

Cheers! (Teach this Rookie More)

 

[TheTick]

=============================================================

LOL -- my reasons for being negative are often created by just such a statement as you have above --- 192 posts or so, with at least half being pictures and explanations of the LRC, and then theres always one who doesnt know what Im talking about. Not stated as a negative about you, but HOW ON EARTH CAN ONE TEACH IMPORTANT THINGS ABOUT THE MARKET WHEN SO MANY MISS THE POSTS ??

oh well, attached chart shows the channels (GREEN) which are "essentially" nothing more than parallel trend lines, showing top and bottom of the trend the currency is moving in, in whatever timeframe you so choose. DeMark trendlines, an indicator called "SHI channels real", and a couple other trend channels exist out there and do much the same thing, but my personal favorite is the LINEAR REGRESSION CHANNELS, as theyre based on support and resistance AND some mathematical voodoo that always seems to know.

Notice how the price, similar to the bols, wants to move from one side of the channel to the other -- invariably, once a bounce has occurred off of one channel, the price WILL move to the other channel, only problem being news, which can temporarilly keep this from happening, BUT once set in motion the price WILL hit the opposite channel, and the best use of them from my point of view, is to predict overnite trades, as a bottom on the H4 channel that occurs at 2 in the afternoon (EDT) will NORMALLY not actually start its REAL move until MIDNITE EDT, and complete by a bit into the following days US mkt open !

there are a few ways of working with it, such as a shorter timeframe where its easier to simply play moving up and down the channel (s+r will show you a lot) and therefore "playing the channel".

It points out TRENDS immediately, on any timeframe, which allows you to effortlessly trade as long as you trade the trend, and it can show you the downside moves left when you decide to go short, and perhaps miss your exit and then get swallowed up in an intraday upside reversal.

once you use it whole new worlds are opened to you in a completely visual style --- hard to miss whats happening, methinks !

enjoy and trade well

mp

There's so many posts with such a varied amount and quality of content that it's inevitable people will miss some, as I obviously did with the LRC. I'm reading as much as I can and this is just something I hadn't come accross. Thanks for taking the time to explain a little about them - I will now spend some time looking at them and learning more.

 

[mp6140]

Mp -- Indicators, Indicators, Indicators ????

Hello MP6140,
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .So again yes all traders have their requirements and demand over their trading and time frames for success, I agree; and indicators were developed because those developers knew how it would help themselves with their way of trading, I agree. Can they help with your profitability = yes!

Will I use most indicators on my charts = No way!

Why? Because they do not give immediate and actionable information like price action. One has to wait a few bars away from an entry that would put a bigger smile on my face. when ones method is indicator based. Now, however you trade just make sure you win more that you lose! My thoughts.

Cheers! (Teach this Rookie More)

===================================================================

LOL -- you seem hard to "teach more", rookie !

where youre missing my point is not in the use of indicators for an entry or exit, but in the use of them as confirmers of truth.

take this scenerio --- a price starts up on the 5 minute chart and you, confident of it going to yyy.yyyy, jump on with a large bid since its only a short run of 10 pips or so, only to watch as the price heads toward your tp point, and then promptly dives 10 pips.
Do you exit at a loss or stay in the trade ?

My small set of indicators, while showing me entry and exit points well enough, EVEN MORE SO show whether this is a true reversal move or just a mm headfake --- usually it shows that the one minute chart took a dive and that the 5 minute or 15 min is still just fine for a LONG, and so, where many would have stopped out or bailed out, I hold the trade to its profit point (thats where s+r and the lrc comes in) and smile at the ones who bailed because "price action" went against them.

Furthermore, how do you look at 4 charts of differing timeframes and see that theyre all lined up for a run WITHOUT some form of indicator to "sync" these charts together with ? It simply takes far too long to look at 4 timeframe charts, see their present price action, and assume theyre in sync for an upside move together !

can you trade "naked" ---- yes, cause thats essentially what i do, EXCEPT when headfaked and then a fast look at my little indicator pak, and my breathing is back to normal !

i figure if the pros are using indicators, and theyre calling the shots, i might as well have a shot at what theyre shooting at !

enjoy and trade well

mp

 

[nine]

What indicators do you believe that "the pros" use?

 

[mp6140]

What indicators do you believe that "the pros" use?

======================================================

the last time I was at citibanks trading room they were using the CCI and RSI --- naturally they were using s+r and their most impt indicator, the telephone !

but i talk about indicators because THEY are moving the pieces around and WE are only following them --- in a night excercise, the bad guys can move forward as they wish but if were behind them, trying to find them, night vision and sound detectors sure help us !

So do the indicators, as long as were FOLLOWING and not LEADING !

mp

 

[black bear]

very special ones nine

What indicators do you believe that "the pros" use?

post nine

I think they use very special ones nine


Sure do not use their eyes or price location, hell no that would be just to simple, tell you another thing ........

there rsi "s have a special setting that tells them just how much more price is going to fall when it gets into oversold zone :-0 honest ........its amazing, saw one once


it was fab

lol

good weekend all :clover:

 

[jonj]

dont you love this thread??!!
for my two ps worth indicators are not only helpfull but can be be used as a profitable trading system completly ignoring price action.depends on your tradin style.i allways ask myself if the indicator signals would stop me from entering the trade? the ussual answer for me is NO,but as i said i think its a matter of style.
good night yawl

 

[TraderGreg]

Hello MP6140,
LOL .... What am I to make of this: 'you seem hard to "teach more" rookie!' Senior Member!
Heard to learn because I love to take all of what I am given!! LoL. And why not?

Indicators are helpful and I concur with your point above; I do not discount their helpfulness in telling 'truths' as you put it. But the point I think I was trying to argue, based on what I have learn't on this thread and others related, is that less or no indicator at all and a good PA system or method of trading can do a highly superb job of sending you on a regular basis to the bank with more. And I was saying that if you look closely, I think, the truths that the indicators confirm could also be confirmed with some method in price action for taking the same trade.

One more thing: TD prefers the higher time frames for this form of Pinocchio bar trading. He says that they are more reliable on the higher time frames ( TF >= H1) so I personally would not even try to look for PA setups on anything less. And your scenario does not do justice to the method of trading described in this thread. Pin bars tell superb 'truths' about markets likely direction because it in its self does confirm a turn in market direction; may be small may be large, but a turn on a smaller time frame. TDs method dictates trading "favorable PIN BAR SETUPS" and trading on the particular time frame that the pin bar was spotted on. The only requirement be that one knows the present trend along with the setup. No crosses of indicators needed. So if I can trade this way, why do I need indicators for confirmation? A strict pin entry into a good trade lets me gracefully take whatever the market cares to give me in pips for which I am always grateful. By waiting on indicator confirmations you miss a little of what the market care to give. It could be 5 or 10 or 20 pips etc.

Look at these scenario and say for e.g. we exit the trade on same conditions (though unlikely):
Wining trade Pin bar style: pin setup - risk 30 - take 300!!
Wining trade indicator style: indicator confirmation 10 pips gone due to logging nature - risk 30 - take 290!!

We both make money but PA GET YOU MORE!!

Cheers ( 10 pip makes me smile just a bit better; teach me more)
GR...

 

[mp6140]

There's so many posts with such a varied amount and quality of content that it's inevitable people will miss some, as I obviously did with the LRC. I'm reading as much as I can and this is just something I hadn't come accross. Thanks for taking the time to explain a little about them - I will now spend some time looking at them and learning more.

=================================================
it was only a joke tick --- most of what i say is with my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek (you DIDNT think i was going into detail on anyplace ELSE it may get in its travels, did you ?)

enjoy

mp

 

[mp6140]

Hello MP6140,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - By waiting on indicator confirmations you miss a little of what the market care to give. It could be 5 or 10 or 20 pips etc.

Look at these scenario and say for e.g. we exit the trade on same conditions (though unlikely):
Wining trade Pin bar style: pin setup - risk 30 - take 300!!
Wining trade indicator style: indicator confirmation 10 pips gone due to logging nature - risk 30 - take 290!!

We both make money but PA GET YOU MORE!!

Cheers ( 10 pip makes me smile just a bit better; teach me more)
GR...

=============================================================

let us take your same scenerio and since moves rarely just go up (at least not long term ones) let us say you get your entry appears, you enter, the price starts up AND THEN HEADS FOR THE FLOOR !

this has happened to all of us at some time --- now, what do your pin bars tell you to do now ? Has your stop been hit and youre now out of the trade with a loss ?

the indicator pak i use is NOT for ma's crossing, although theyre in there, but for the divergence macd indicator which, along with the ma's, will tell me if this trade is still good as a long. Now one could use an RSI to gain that info, and i have duplicated my little indicator (used on MT4 charts) with the WADI which is only available on the quotetracker charting program, but is the best little thing since sliced bread to tell you the honest truth of a trend and when it ends and i use BOTH to satisfy my trading.

while what you say about having made more not using ma crosses would be true, all things being equal, that doesnt apply to how i determine entry points, although i certainly have the capability of trading that way should i turn lazy --- they are only a confirm, or can be used to prophesize, along with the others in the tool box.

Price action is fine, and I stated that i use it in a modified manner, depending totally on s+r levels, trendlines and channels --- it is highly doubtful that you can get MORE out of a move than i can, but ill bet dollars to donuts my indicators KEEP ME IN MORE winning trades than your pure price action does, if only that i dont get stopped out and have to re-enter !

mp

 

[nine]

Doughnuts don't do good things for my waste line .. and dollars, well, how about some Euro's?

Seriously though, what is a WADI ?




PS. Given that your indicators are just manipulations of price action I bet you could come up with PA rules that would be as good as or better. But the indicators are a short cut.

 

[mp6140]

Doughnuts don't do good things for my waste line .. and dollars, well, how about some Euro's?

Seriously though, what is a WADI ?

PS. Given that your indicators are just manipulations of price action I bet you could come up with PA rules that would be as good as or better. But the indicators are a short cut.

WADI -- Williams accumulation/distribution Index
I use the accumulation/distribution index on the MT4 platform also, but MOSTLY for finding bottoms and tops, where it surpasses most any indicator ive met in my travels.

Distinct possibility rules could do what indicators do, but im an analog guy in a digital world, and so i use squiggly lines to help me thru the day ! Single Malt Scotch does well also !

enjoy and trade well

mp

 

[nine]

18 yr old Chivas is ok too.

I still have one squiggly line

 

[mp6140]

18 yr old Chivas is ok too.

I still have one squiggly line

ever notice how one works well for entries and working an uptrend, but how another is better for exits and the short side ?

LOL

18 yr olds are just fine in my book !

mp