Grand Fraud ( spreadbetting Companies )

[Splitlink]

Lightning,

If you imagine the scenario in which a website 'goes down' (ie is taken off line in a fast directional market to prevent themselves from being taken to the cleaners), then do you really think your stop would be honoured anyway? Or might there be a little bit of slippage In the instance that it's a genuine site outage and you urgently need to close a position, you could always enter it with one of the other spreadbet firms you have an account with for these eventualities, and close both trades out when everything is working okay again. To echo Splitlink's point that has only ever happened to me once in all my years of trading and it was a conventional broker who let me down (site down, not answering phones) and a spreadbet firm that bailed me out by letting me offset the trades I wanted to close!

I think that the broker registers the stops at the exchange so, in a broker's site crash, you should not be affected. My problem, that morning, was with traded options. The exchanges do not accepted trailing stops, though. These are a broker's service to his clients and would be affected. IB warns traders on this point.

Split

 

[black bear]

I've been trading for years and haven't sorted this matter out satisfactorily in my mind. The quick answer that I get is that the stop is too close. If it is too far away it might be more useful, because it is less likely to get triggered. So be it, but at least, the trader should have one in place. It is insurance.

Split & Jack

Bang on, it should be on HARD at time of trade I realise a hard stop loss because of computer down, away from screen, ye go on then its Saturday or housework once every other week or three, The risk at time of order is 2.5% of bank. I move hard Stop quick as possible to maintain this. I trade out on soft stop, because that's my real HARD STOP if that makes any sense which is probably where I would put Hard stop in the 1st place but for spiky action with sb firms.

Don"t forget that your away from screen , come back and find your doing it at +60, and your normal target is +30 or there was a nasty pull back you would have traded out on Split evens out in the end IMO.

 

[black bear]

Correct they are are a bookmaker and you have been given the KNOCK BACK

move out in time frame and your stop won"t be run as often, that is till the big Boys at the market start to run em

Thread went off course again :!:

SB firms are Bookmakers are entitled to KNOCK BACK refuse to accept bet.

I do object to platform disconnects, Ye , cant prove it, its busy , you can use the phone to close etc etc bla bla bla, temp folders , latest java etc etc the list goes on.

The good old market closed works just fine thank you,:!: I don't mind, I just go and get a cup of tea. But I do mind if you keep disconnecting me and taking out me router and giving me a mi-grain and then telling me ~

"there"s only one other person in the whole country experiencing difficulty Sir"

IG Index, new platform, anybody else had any trouble. :?:

I would advise anybody starting trading with the SB firms to take full advantage of their generosity and

1. use the minimum bet size in the less volatile markets at first.
2. Longer time frame and no intra day trading with any size bet unless its just to fine tune entry for swing trade, or your method is trying to capture most of days range etc.

I have had accounts with most while learning

I can"t be bothered writing more , don"t think the server will have hard drive space but the list would include the usual ~

Slow tickets, market moved on / re-quotes, disconnects, charts go to dead slow or stop in fast markets, but payment screen works in a nano second phones take an age to get to dealer.

You have been warned learn and move on or trade in higher time frame which is probably ok.

Advice, if your short in the Dow or anything else for that matter, always enter a limit at an extreme
ie; 200 pts, from your open, if you are lucky enough to get caught up in a black swan event after news etc and indexs are crashing fast, you will not get out if platform disconnects and phones are verrry verrrrrry busy. Last February Fins platform and phones were down for the best part of 1 1/2 hrs during largest part of crash and bounce. this without a limit order would have left you VERY

include limit to Long to for good measure to

 

[Trader333]

Isn't it amazing that the direct access brokers just don't appear to experience these same problems and it makes you wonder why ?


Paul

 

[black bear]

Isn't it amazing that the direct access brokers just don't appear to experience these same problems and it makes you wonder why ?


Paul

I think the penny has just dropped :idea:

if not yet convinced

Can"t remember but there is a link on this sight to some company that er"rrrrr fine tunes SB firms platforms so they can stop hunt without effort, maximise slips and check the level of your connectivity to their platform. I assume they can wind this setting down just like servers do at weekend peak download times, which in their case is payrolls day ,

looked this afternoon could"nt find it, thought it was aerial communications or something like that :?:

 

[Charlton]

I think the penny has just dropped :idea:

if not yet convinced

Can"t remember but there is a link on this sight to some company that er"rrrrr fine tunes SB firms platforms so they can stop hunt without effort, maximise slips and check the level of your connectivity to their platform. I assume they can wind this setting down just like servers do at weekend peak download times, which in their case is payrolls day ,

looked this afternoon could"nt find it, thought it was aerial communications or something like that :?:

I can understand the reasons for wishing to start with an SB firm, but direct access simply does not suffer from these issues. If you are happy with your SB broker then you are fortunate, but there seem to be so many problems with them discussed on these threads, that you have to question and weigh up the pros and cons of (perhaps) cheaper fees, commissions and tax advantages against a more expensive (perhaps) but reliable service from direct access.

Charlton

 

[black bear]

I can understand the reasons for wishing to start with an SB firm, but direct access simply does not suffer from these issues. If you are happy with your SB broker then you are fortunate, but there seem to be so many problems with them discussed on these threads, that you have to question and weigh up the pros and cons of (perhaps) cheaper fees, commissions and tax advantages against a more expensive (perhaps) but reliable service from direct access.

Charlton

I agree, no problem in higher time frames, just well the threads about dishing them, and if what's been said is not true, nothing to stop them posting and telling us the truth , we"ll believe them, won"t we.

Don"t think anything that bad as been said anyway, we are just stating the obvious

They are bookmakers :!:

I have no experience yet of IB I have just started to trade a higher time frame again, if I am connected that is

just object to them making out that they want intra day business, when in fact they do, provided the entry is high risk and to their advantage.

The case I highlighted with Fins is in my opinion bordering on Fraudulent business practice, even if they have a couple of lines in contract covering it.

I am happy to stand corrected if punters post to say Fins gave them their money back etc earlier this year when Dow and Fins platform, and the phones had a fault all on the same night. just when the index bounced like a rubber ball ye right :!:

 

[jkplay]

I think the penny has just dropped :idea:



Can"t remember but there is a link on this sight to some company that er"rrrrr fine tunes SB firms platforms so they can stop hunt without effort, maximise slips and check the level of your connectivity to their platform.

http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/products.htm

City & Cap Spreads use it (according to the website!).

JK

 

[jkplay]

Cause of negative SB press.

I can understand the reasons for wishing to start with an SB firm, but direct access simply does not suffer from these issues. If you are happy with your SB broker then you are fortunate, but there seem to be so many problems with them discussed on these threads, that you have to question and weigh up the pros and cons of (perhaps) cheaper fees, commissions and tax advantages against a more expensive (perhaps) but reliable service from direct access.

Charlton

The way I would look at that is that the people who use direct access tend to have alot more knowledge and experience than most spreadbet traders. They have nobody to blame when they get the market wrong. The massive expansion over the last few years has caused many novice investors to ''have a punt'' with spreadbetting companies.

I would say that most criticism in regards to SB's come from people who have set tight stops, over-leveraged themselves or got the market totally wrong (hopefully not all 3!). This is a massive generalization but a large part of the 90% who loose money do it for those reasons. As there is a third party to pass the blame onto that tends to be the frequent reaction on boards such as this, with allot of hilariously paranoid opinions and enough conspiracy theories to fill a season of CSI.

Just my opinion, of course there are cases where they are wrong but in general I feel fine about spreadbetting.

JK

 

[trendie]

as I am primarily a SB'er, this threads premise, that SB companies conduct fraud, is of concern if true.

however, as has been noted, they dont have to follow the underlying futures prices accurately, as their bias reflects the varying positions of the sum of their clients, not the whole market.

there are also a number of other threads that relate to slippage, etc.
but please note, these players may be predominantly scalpers.

if you zoom out to a larger time-frame, these slippages may be seen as noise.

however, how are we going to quantify "fraud", and "stop-hunting". how is the "SB" stop-hunting any different to "professional market-maker" stop-hunting?

can we post the charts of SB prices of a given market, and compare with futures prices?
if there are noticeable spike events, lets say more than a given percentage over the futures prices, that may constitute fraud.

but its also important not to abdicate responsibility for ones own poor money-management and trade-placement.

in summary, how can we replace possible urban-myths, sheer bad luck, and anecdotal stories with a quantifiable, objective, body of evidence that carries the weight of mathematics to prove/disprove fraud?

 

[Crap Buddist]

Bent ****ers!

http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/products.htm

City & Cap Spreads use it (according to the website!).

JK

"Slippage – Set by client, market and size to make extra pips on stop orders "

 

[Jack o'Clubs]

in summary, how can we replace possible urban-myths, sheer bad luck, and anecdotal stories with a quantifiable, objective, body of evidence that carries the weight of mathematics to prove/disprove fraud?

see Crap Buddhist's post above! The case for the prosecution rests, m'lud.

 

[trendie]

see Crap Buddhist's post above! The case for the prosecution rests, m'lud.

my car has a speedometer that goes upto 150 mph.
by your own reasoning, that is "proof" that I break the speed limit each time I turn on the ignition.

from a "proof" perspective, the SB companies could claim that dont use that facility!

I am not defending SBs, just that we should as intelligent people, be capable of constructing a far stronger case than words off an internet webpage.

comparative screenshots is one possible objective method that such a facility is being used.

EDIT: improved the reading of last sentence.
EDIT2: damn!! Ive done it again! getting myself embroiled in threads, instead of just getting on with some reading. ("Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris.) This trading is a very solitary activity, isnt it?

 

[Jack o'Clubs]

Trendie,

I meant my post to be tongue-in-cheek, but more seriously if you're after proof, I doubt you'll find it. I also wouldn't call what the spreadbet companies do 'fraud'. It may in some instances be sharp practice, but nothing that the punter hasn't accepted when they signed the T&C's to open the account. Is a casino fraudulent because it pays 36/1 on a roulette win, when the odds are 37/1 ?

In any case, I doubt it matters. It's all part of the learning curve, and if definitive proof of fraudulent behaviour were found, thousands of beginners would still open accounts, attracted by the leverage, nice trading platforms, small size bets, special offers, training courses, tax avoidance (although in practice this hardly benefits a new trader) and ease of use. Over time, the limitations become apparent and the beginners will either have left the game (because of their own ineptitude, unlikely to because of s'bet fraud - although lengthening the odds of winning won't have helped), or adapted their strategies so the s'bet tricks don't matter so much (ie longer timescales), or moved onto DMA.

After all, it's not as if there aren't enough threads on here about bad experience with specific companies, and sure as eggs is eggs, a few weeks later there'll be yet another one...

 

[trendie]

JoC,

yes, I got carried away. I was being my usual flippant self.
sorry if my post came across as interrogative or anything unfriendly.
Mondays are tough, as I dont like to trade until the US wakes up and "really" start the week.

 

[Trader333]

how is the "SB" stop-hunting any different to "professional market-maker" stop-hunting?

The key difference is that with a SB company your money is already in accounts held by them which is not the case with professional MM.

I agree with many of the other points that you are making such as that the accusations cannot be proved. I also think that if you are trading long term then SB is a good option but intra-day is just too risky in my view.

What I do know is that in all of my time in trading I have never encountered any issues ever when using a direct access platform to place or close orders. If the online platform was faulty I am still able to close a trade in 30 seconds from the point at which I am aware an issue may exist by phone because I tested it once but I have never needed to use it. I also know a large number of people who use SB to trade and almost all of them have had issues with unreliability of platform and especially at key times. Maybe this is pure coincidence but the evidence I have so far seen would question that.


Paul