Commentary on The Journey from the Basement
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smileypete
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dc2000,
Does psycology play a role in your trading? Do you trade a system or discretionary?
cheers,
Pete.
Does psycology play a role in your trading? Do you trade a system or discretionary?
cheers,
Pete.
Agree re dc- nice post temptrader. (dc and I share a commonality- no I dont sell a system, but there's nothing wrong with that - I too faced a ban and voluntarily walked from the boards for a while, I seem to remeber dc took the ban, apologies if I'm wrong dc)
I dunno how you guys find the time- Ive just finished trading and updating my various spreadsheets (97 ticks in the oil market today
)!
No pictues of sheds (nice "shed"). The only point I want to make is that it is nothing to do with newbies or rookies or whatever label this site chooses to stick against you. It's about finding a trading style that suits you, there is no right or wrong way despite the statements of "Socrates". The right way is the way that suits you and makes you the amount of money in the market you wish to make. Sure, a lot of what he said is true, only in the sense that it is a truism, little more than common sense. IMHO There is no easy route, there are no set of rules that will guarantee you success, but there are guidelines to follow that will minimise the risk, and avoid the huge drawdowns that wipeout most.
Ive traded for 20 years, the last 6 on my own pa full time. I dont have a system as such, I trade by looking at the market action within simple trends and Fibonacci retrecements. And then I break em from time to time!
I dunno how you guys find the time- Ive just finished trading and updating my various spreadsheets (97 ticks in the oil market today
)!No pictues of sheds (nice "shed"). The only point I want to make is that it is nothing to do with newbies or rookies or whatever label this site chooses to stick against you. It's about finding a trading style that suits you, there is no right or wrong way despite the statements of "Socrates". The right way is the way that suits you and makes you the amount of money in the market you wish to make. Sure, a lot of what he said is true, only in the sense that it is a truism, little more than common sense. IMHO There is no easy route, there are no set of rules that will guarantee you success, but there are guidelines to follow that will minimise the risk, and avoid the huge drawdowns that wipeout most.
Ive traded for 20 years, the last 6 on my own pa full time. I dont have a system as such, I trade by looking at the market action within simple trends and Fibonacci retrecements. And then I break em from time to time!
dc2000
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Smileypete
I trade a system although I prefer to call it a strategy using a mathematical approach to trading and quite often don't even watch the screen.
As for psychology " Dont look for reasons look for results" and " They make the news fit the moves" is about it.
I trade a system although I prefer to call it a strategy using a mathematical approach to trading and quite often don't even watch the screen.
As for psychology " Dont look for reasons look for results" and " They make the news fit the moves" is about it.
Hello All,
I have read this post and the Journey to the Basement post taking notes as I did so. I want to help move this thread along. I will begin with some quotes, paraphrasing and excerpts from some well known trading and trading psychology gurus, reiterate some of Socrates points, embellishing along the way, then suggest how we might expand on them. Most of all, I would love to hear your thoughts on how you to move toward your TP.
Following is a list of skills Joe Ross specifies as requirements in his book, Trading by the Book: (1) Self Discipline, (2) Knowledge, (3) Patience, (4) Self Control, (5) Resourcefulness, (6) Diligence, (7) Flexibility, (8) Concentration, (9) Decisiveness, (10) Persistence, (11) Discretion, (12) Perseverance and (13) Consistency. Most of these are soft skills or behaviours and are part of one’s character. One might argue that one’s character is driven by their values, beliefs, goals and psychology.
Mark Douglas in his book Trading in the Zone states that we need a probabilistic mind-set pertaining to trading which consists of five fundamental truths. (1) Anything can happen. (2) You don’t need to know what is going to happen next in order to make money. (3) There is a random distribution between wins and losses for any given set of variables that define an edge. (4) An edge is nothing more than an indication of a higher probability of one thing happening over another. (5) Every moment in the market is unique. He further states that there are seven principles of consistency, namely: (1) Objectively identify your edges. (2) Pre-define the risk of every trade. (3) Completely accept the risk you are willing take or let go of the trade. (4) Act on your edges without reservation or hesitation. (5) Pay yourself as the market makes money available to you. (6) Continually monitor your susceptibility for making errors. (7) Understand the absolute necessity of these principles of consistent success and, therefore, never violate them. This is all easy to say, the challenge of course is in consistent execution.
Brett Steenbarger has stated in a number of his publications and interviews a similar theme surrounding personal development. Here are a couple of his quotes:
“If market opportunities are born of inefficiencies inherent in human information processing, as behavioral finance researchers suggest, then the ability to profit from these opportunities requires the capacity to stand apart from such biases and patterns. One cannot simultaneously fall prey to human nature and profit from it. This requires a considerable measure of self-development, the kind that can only occur as the result of immersive experience and practice. Those who aspire to trading greatness must find some measure of greatness within. Such is the challenge and nobility of the path we've chosen.”
“In mastering the markets, you can further yourself as a human being; and in developing yourself as a person, you can enhance your trading success.”
Socrates suggests some skills to master to lead to a TP would include: the art and practice of Speculation, the principles of risk quantification, the development of Persona, the development of Persona Detached, the principles of Mind Development, the protocols of self management and self responsibility, techniques for handling tactical decisions dependent upon conditions of uncertainty, Alternative Economics, Alternative Political Theory, Alternative Mathematics, Transmutation, Transposition, Transalteration, Tanking, Verinegation, Time Studies and Bio-mind Faculty Development.
I must admit that even with some searching on the Internet I could not find very much or any information on some of the soft skills Socrates spoke of. Personally, I don’t think we all need all of the skills and knowledge Socrates mentions above in order to master our own personal TP. However, other than the time involved in learning, perhaps these skills and this knowledge would enhance our TP. Others may argue that some of it is too academic. Do we really need to know all this to make money trading?
In one of the posts someone made up a good chart summarizing some of Socrates thoughts. The chart showed concentric circles of The Correct Knowledge (leading to a complete mind map of how “everything” works), Awareness (leading to abstract knowing), TP (leading to the ultimately armoured TP), Total Serenity (leading to impartiality), leading to The Eye - the Ultimate Prize. I have tried to touch on each of these soft skills in this post.
The point of all the above you ask? I believe there is a great deal of merit to what Brett Steenbarger says. That is, in order to develop one’s TP one needs to develop one’s self. To the degree that our values, beliefs, goals and behaviour are congruent, and to the degree we are at peace with ourselves, we will more easily achieve our TP.
So I will begin with some of my personal experiences. I have found that for me to be in the Zone, I must first handle ALL the physical matters which include no environmental distractions at the trade station, being well rested, well prepared, comfortable, not overly hungry or full and not thirsty. If I have not dealt with every one of these, I will not trade. Next I must be relaxed and free of stress mental distractions. To achieve the latter I find stretching and meditation to be extremely beneficial.
Another technique is to become centered. Those who practice marshal arts have an edge in this regard. A useful book if you want to learn more about being centred is Journey to Center by Thomas Crum.
With regard to Socrates point about having a detached persona, or impartiality, this can be achieved through the teachings of Lester Levenson, He teaches how to become “hootlessness” where you don’t give a “hoot” about the outcome or are unattached to the outcome of your feelings and emotions.
I pose these questions to the floor. Consider the following. There seem to be some extraordinary human beings who seem to have the character attributes of being totally at peace with themselves and the world. Zen Buddhists come to mind. If they are able to achieve this state, do they need a TP or just the trading knowledge portion? If they have the trading knowledge and the aforementioned character attributes perhaps they automatically will have a TP?
So now I would like your input on some techniques you use to help you move toward your TP. It would be especially interesting to me if you could enlighten us on your knowledge and experience in any of the long list of skills and knowledge Socrates only briefly mentioned. Of particular interest to me would anything you could share regarding Transmutation, Transposition, Transalteration and Tanking.
Cheers!
WRR
I have read this post and the Journey to the Basement post taking notes as I did so. I want to help move this thread along. I will begin with some quotes, paraphrasing and excerpts from some well known trading and trading psychology gurus, reiterate some of Socrates points, embellishing along the way, then suggest how we might expand on them. Most of all, I would love to hear your thoughts on how you to move toward your TP.
Following is a list of skills Joe Ross specifies as requirements in his book, Trading by the Book: (1) Self Discipline, (2) Knowledge, (3) Patience, (4) Self Control, (5) Resourcefulness, (6) Diligence, (7) Flexibility, (8) Concentration, (9) Decisiveness, (10) Persistence, (11) Discretion, (12) Perseverance and (13) Consistency. Most of these are soft skills or behaviours and are part of one’s character. One might argue that one’s character is driven by their values, beliefs, goals and psychology.
Mark Douglas in his book Trading in the Zone states that we need a probabilistic mind-set pertaining to trading which consists of five fundamental truths. (1) Anything can happen. (2) You don’t need to know what is going to happen next in order to make money. (3) There is a random distribution between wins and losses for any given set of variables that define an edge. (4) An edge is nothing more than an indication of a higher probability of one thing happening over another. (5) Every moment in the market is unique. He further states that there are seven principles of consistency, namely: (1) Objectively identify your edges. (2) Pre-define the risk of every trade. (3) Completely accept the risk you are willing take or let go of the trade. (4) Act on your edges without reservation or hesitation. (5) Pay yourself as the market makes money available to you. (6) Continually monitor your susceptibility for making errors. (7) Understand the absolute necessity of these principles of consistent success and, therefore, never violate them. This is all easy to say, the challenge of course is in consistent execution.
Brett Steenbarger has stated in a number of his publications and interviews a similar theme surrounding personal development. Here are a couple of his quotes:
“If market opportunities are born of inefficiencies inherent in human information processing, as behavioral finance researchers suggest, then the ability to profit from these opportunities requires the capacity to stand apart from such biases and patterns. One cannot simultaneously fall prey to human nature and profit from it. This requires a considerable measure of self-development, the kind that can only occur as the result of immersive experience and practice. Those who aspire to trading greatness must find some measure of greatness within. Such is the challenge and nobility of the path we've chosen.”
“In mastering the markets, you can further yourself as a human being; and in developing yourself as a person, you can enhance your trading success.”
Socrates suggests some skills to master to lead to a TP would include: the art and practice of Speculation, the principles of risk quantification, the development of Persona, the development of Persona Detached, the principles of Mind Development, the protocols of self management and self responsibility, techniques for handling tactical decisions dependent upon conditions of uncertainty, Alternative Economics, Alternative Political Theory, Alternative Mathematics, Transmutation, Transposition, Transalteration, Tanking, Verinegation, Time Studies and Bio-mind Faculty Development.
I must admit that even with some searching on the Internet I could not find very much or any information on some of the soft skills Socrates spoke of. Personally, I don’t think we all need all of the skills and knowledge Socrates mentions above in order to master our own personal TP. However, other than the time involved in learning, perhaps these skills and this knowledge would enhance our TP. Others may argue that some of it is too academic. Do we really need to know all this to make money trading?
In one of the posts someone made up a good chart summarizing some of Socrates thoughts. The chart showed concentric circles of The Correct Knowledge (leading to a complete mind map of how “everything” works), Awareness (leading to abstract knowing), TP (leading to the ultimately armoured TP), Total Serenity (leading to impartiality), leading to The Eye - the Ultimate Prize. I have tried to touch on each of these soft skills in this post.
The point of all the above you ask? I believe there is a great deal of merit to what Brett Steenbarger says. That is, in order to develop one’s TP one needs to develop one’s self. To the degree that our values, beliefs, goals and behaviour are congruent, and to the degree we are at peace with ourselves, we will more easily achieve our TP.
So I will begin with some of my personal experiences. I have found that for me to be in the Zone, I must first handle ALL the physical matters which include no environmental distractions at the trade station, being well rested, well prepared, comfortable, not overly hungry or full and not thirsty. If I have not dealt with every one of these, I will not trade. Next I must be relaxed and free of stress mental distractions. To achieve the latter I find stretching and meditation to be extremely beneficial.
Another technique is to become centered. Those who practice marshal arts have an edge in this regard. A useful book if you want to learn more about being centred is Journey to Center by Thomas Crum.
With regard to Socrates point about having a detached persona, or impartiality, this can be achieved through the teachings of Lester Levenson, He teaches how to become “hootlessness” where you don’t give a “hoot” about the outcome or are unattached to the outcome of your feelings and emotions.
I pose these questions to the floor. Consider the following. There seem to be some extraordinary human beings who seem to have the character attributes of being totally at peace with themselves and the world. Zen Buddhists come to mind. If they are able to achieve this state, do they need a TP or just the trading knowledge portion? If they have the trading knowledge and the aforementioned character attributes perhaps they automatically will have a TP?
So now I would like your input on some techniques you use to help you move toward your TP. It would be especially interesting to me if you could enlighten us on your knowledge and experience in any of the long list of skills and knowledge Socrates only briefly mentioned. Of particular interest to me would anything you could share regarding Transmutation, Transposition, Transalteration and Tanking.
Cheers!
WRR
TheBramble
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Fair enough.temptrader said:
JumpOff
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Well I found the whole thing very entertaining, and useful too. The combination of Socs going on about the TP and dbphoenix on another thread gently suggesting that many of us don't have clue, made me realize I could start developing that TP by doing some grunt work at the beginning. Not only did I not have a trading plan - I didn't even know that I was supposed to have one! No wonder I kept making the same mistakes over and over.
You know, not every word on these boards is going to contain a pearl of wisdom - sometimes its just fun to relax and enjoy the sparks. And remember, there are probably several personalities here who are just marketing shills for some broker's industry association. I run everything through my own crap detector. If it is useful, I keep it. If it doesn't make the grade, then I just smile and go on....
wwr, Regarding psych exercises - I've about given up. I'm working on plain old common sense and a well written trading plan. (Of course your emotions go crazy if you are just guessing and losing money all the time!) If I can't stick to my trading plan, then I'll look into the psych thing again.
JO
You know, not every word on these boards is going to contain a pearl of wisdom - sometimes its just fun to relax and enjoy the sparks. And remember, there are probably several personalities here who are just marketing shills for some broker's industry association. I run everything through my own crap detector. If it is useful, I keep it. If it doesn't make the grade, then I just smile and go on....
wwr, Regarding psych exercises - I've about given up. I'm working on plain old common sense and a well written trading plan. (Of course your emotions go crazy if you are just guessing and losing money all the time!) If I can't stick to my trading plan, then I'll look into the psych thing again.
JO
Windlesham1
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I went through a crisis of confidence a while back and posted here. there was some support and sympathy,but nothing that helped.Looking back at my last 2 years I have done well by trading as myself. All the greats have gone through the same processes,and what got them through? It was their own personality. I now give little credence to other peoples input,as they have been proved wrong about 90% of the time. My broker/s trading some funds for me,at one point were 20% down- I've never traded that badly or in such an ill disciplined manner-so their combined 30+ years of experience actually counts for zero if their trading personalities are not suited to it. Funny old game innit?
Windowsill
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I looked through approx the first 60 pages...enjoyed some of it, perhaps easier to be the right personality type in the 1st place then reinventing yourself......Did/was there ever a down to earth discussion on the nitty gritty of trading, with price and volume or would this be tooo basement? I was attracted to the thread because of the lack of indicators as I limit myself to price only & 20 sma to remind me of the trend. Indicators I feel give you lots of reasons NOT to trade. Never found much use for volume either though. In my experience I found virtual trading, the best way to learn.
SOCRATES
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This is because the object ot the original thread was to discover the bias in how individuals who have the correct faculties are divided away from those who have not, and to properly channel those at the correct level of personal awareness.Windowsill said:
This is like the aspiration of ordinary military personnel, ore even civilians, may have to being admitted to a Special Forces Unit. Many can aspire, but very few succeed, and even fewer pass selection and can be admitted.
For this reason it was assumed that the members participating and contributing already had evolved an effective methodology condusive to a very real potential for consistent success, but hampered by self defeatism as a result of not having developed the proper mindset to accompany their technical ability.
To discuss indicators or other rock bottom basic technical matters within the context of the above is irrelevant.
As there are many members who do not understand these criteria, the result is inevitable misunderstanding, often spilling into frustration, even rudeness.
But the members who were able to correctly use the channelling have benefitted greatly.
There was whole host of interesting things highlighted, or rather discussed in depth in the Journey from the Basement thread. Thank you indeed for raising these and for the significant amount of time you put in, Socs.
I learned a great deal from this thread, and have to say that I have benefitted significantly from the work I have done which was triggered by a few key words from within the many posts. (You have to look carefully, but the gems are there to get you on your way if you so wish!!)
It would be naive of me to post what I've done to improve myself in a public forum; it certainly isn't mainstream! And also it required a huge amount of hours to do, so I doubt if many could be bothered to put in the effort anyway.
I learned a great deal from this thread, and have to say that I have benefitted significantly from the work I have done which was triggered by a few key words from within the many posts. (You have to look carefully, but the gems are there to get you on your way if you so wish!!)
It would be naive of me to post what I've done to improve myself in a public forum; it certainly isn't mainstream! And also it required a huge amount of hours to do, so I doubt if many could be bothered to put in the effort anyway.
Windowsill
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Thank you for the reply Socratees.
Virtual trading, a different mindset/personality. Thats what I find fascinating.
Virtual trading, a different mindset/personality. Thats what I find fascinating.
SOCRATES
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I am very pleased to hear you have benefitted.jimmy1jag said:
The most important part of trading is not the act of trading, but the mindset that accompanies it.
Very few are either able or willing to make the effort.
I asked Skim to close the thread when in the latter stages the conduct from some posters became intolerable. I was prepared to write a whole series until it was made patently obvious to me very few were ready to be taken higher.
For this reason "The Journey" remains unfinished.
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