Commentary on The Journey from the Basement

[smileypete]

Hi,

Some more ideas and views on trader psycology would be nice instead of knocking each other (bit of irony there... :| )

cheers,
Pete.

 

[tradesmart]

The polite respectful ones who are desperate to learn are the ones who lose out because Socrates has I believe left the boards

You could always try a pm - I doubt that he'd ignore you - if you're polite - very polite (and desperate.......)





and if he's not having a bonfire................

 

[temptrader]

Hey Two Bars,

If you look at all my previous posts you'll find that I've been very polite and curteous - I just can't stand it when the like of Socrates feel so damn superior to everyone else. He reminds me of someone that I use to be at a certain stage in my life and also someone I use to know, so now you'll be in for a long explanation:

Socrates has given you nothing boys, but you're too dumb to acknowledge it to yourselves, because in order to do so would mean you have to start again. Those that do, like BBB, tradesmart etc. . . know that you've all been duped, but again there's this little sense of doubt in you that thinks maybe, just maybe there is something there . . . or maybe there's nothing at all.

I remember about 2 and a half years ago that I use to be a member of Colin Davey's private Syndicate. He would always babble on the phone and give an impression that he knew all there was about horses. He had this amazing tack of keeping people on the syndicate by claiming that he has a method known as "The Pot of Gold" that would guarantee a 90% strike rate. What he did was when he had a big price winner he would claim afterwards that it was a "Pot of Gold" bet and that he would only reveal it to a few selected individuals who would stay on and listen to him. I was duped well enough into staying with him and we averaged about 2 or maybe 3 bets a month mostly odds on and never made any money. Why did I still stay? Because I had this horrible feeling in my head that he might just do it. He also told us about form, class and other factors in considering a horse and most of it was useful (like what Socrates would be saying). But in the end it served to only enrich him. He also sold me two methods that I bought for £1250. One worked really well for about a month or 2 and then it totalled the bank! After being with him for a year or so I went to his seminar for free and got to know about his so called "Colin Davey" method. After the horrific loses I decided to face facts and I stopped listening to the prat. My friend was also a member of his syndicate as well and left around the same time.

What we did next was rather odd. My friend still believed in Mr Davey's methods and so he spent, and I mean literally, a full 1 and a half years, analysing the racing every single day!! He took some of what Colin said into account and found some of it of use, but that's besides the point. Me and him had nasty arguments about the validity of the Colin Davey method and his other methods and things got to a head that I ended up analysing over 10 years worth of racing to clear my mind because it was literally p!ssing me off that the method might work. You boys might want to ask the owners of the racing post website about the excessive page hits of over 70,000 web pages during the autumn of 2003, because it was me and my friend taking the results for analysis. I wrote multiple programs in all to prove to him and myself that Colin Davey's stuff was just a scam and I glad I did it.

After this we found our own methods through hard work. It wasn't easy because he was - and still is - unemployed. We modified and few things and have a method that can get us about £100 a day, but you have to work for it. His second method is still in the works and will require another 2 or more years to perfect. It's already at the break even stage and needs fine tuning. WE LEARNED NOT TO LISTEN TO ANYONE to get to where we are. Socrates pay attention.

My personaly opinion of Socrates is that he's nothing more than a very clever marketeer, and with a "holier than thou" attitude certainly gives the right impression to convince newbies to his side. But I've seen it all before and quite frankly I'm sick of it and so are most of the others here.

He may have a method that works - I don't know, and we probably never will. But for him to think that his way is the best or give the impression that it is the only way or the superior way misses the point, and is very miss leading to beginners.

Socrates pay attention: You can fool most of the people most of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time

 

[trendie]

The previous few posts are very interesting.

The preculiar thing about psychology is that the things we choose tell us a lot about OURSELVES.

Socrates methods are followed by some. His methods, of inferring he knows it all - you have to be advanced to understand - anybody else not on the "program" are losers. These concepts engender a sense of superiority in those who follow. Maybe these people like to feel superior, or feel they are ubermensch, above the likes us mere mortals.

There are other methods that make money.
Moving Averages ( my favourite ), Swing-Trading, scalping.

Some traders place trades lasting mere minutes. Some place trades lasting weeks and months.

I prefer, and I believe most do, to analyse many methods in parallel, and thus have some mechanism to determine which method is "better".

Problem is: some methods are better in trending markets, some better in ranging markets.

Also, the idea of "better". Some of us like the excitement of intra-day ( not me ), and "better" means scalping a handful of points a day.
For others, "better" is placing trades lasting a few days.

The method each of us use is a reflection of what our own perceptions of risk, reward, expectations etc are.

Does Ed Seykota, ( trend-follower ) use Socrates method ?
Does Paul Tudor Jones use Socrates method ? ( amrket wizard )
Does Linda Raschke use Socrates method ? ( anotehr amrket wizard )
Chartman on this website shows real-time trades that make money. Beat that !!

Socrates suggested improving your skills by watching TV. Great.
Its just that some of us got bored and started channel-hopping

By all means follow Socrates - but PLEASE cut out the holier-than-thou rubbish.

In the final analysis, YOU are the one that places the trade.
If you lose, YOU are the one to blame, not Socrates.
If you win, you take the credit.

If you become a good trader, if will be because you have the ability, and Socrates has helped you.

There are many routes to the summit.

My route is mine own. It suits me, because it suits my personality and psychology.
We are all capable of reaching the summit, with our different methods.

Socrates may teach you to trade.
I would rather learn to make money.

 

[Two Bars]

For temptrader:

If as you say your previous posts have been very polite and courteous, does this give you the right to be abusive to Socrates or to anyone else? No it does not.

You give us your personal opinion. Who cares? Are you qualified to give it? No you are not because you are a newbie and out of your depth on the subject being discussed by Socrates.

Your previous posts have ALL been on trendsignal, anthony robbins, and vince stanzione. These are all vendors and you are obviously looking to buy a system to make you money. Socrates has never talked about a system.

You tell us all about horse racing tipsters. What do horse racing tipsters and syndicates have to do with being able to trade? Absolutely nothing.

You bet on the horses and now you want to poke around in trading to make some money. There is nothing which connects six legs travelling at speed across grass with financial institutions manipulating markets with billions of dollars of money.

That proves that you do not understand what is being discussed because you are a newbie and this subject is for ADVANCED TRADERS.
The subject being discussed is the formation of the correct mindset to be able to trade at world class levels, not a bit of betting on nags..

This is out of your league, as you cannot even understand the topic Socrates is discussing. YOU ARE A NEWBIE and this subject IS FOR ADVANCED TRADERS. Got it now?
Sorry to shout, but what else can I do to get this message into your head which is full of horse racing tipster tricks and horse racing scams and horse racing synidicates?

Be honest with yourself, you have only tried to read Socrates posts because you are desperate to find a cheap quick way to make money in the trading markets, just like you were with trying to make money on horse races. You didn't find a method revealed by Socrates - BECAUSE NO METHOD HAS EVER BEEN DISCUSSED.

You are the proof that newbies who know absolutely nothing about the subject are hellbent on screwing it up for the rest of us. You should be ashamed.

Theres no point in telling you to 'pay attention' because you have not so far and I doubt that you will now.

A tip for you my friend - have you tried dog racing? That is closer to horse racing than trading, but the difference is that there are only four legs running round a track. And if you have difficulty in understanding why horse racing involves six legs it is because two of those legs belong to the jockey.

I bet you are in your early twenties and just out of university. When you have been trading for 30-odd years, come back and have a meaningful discussion. Until then, I wish you great fortune betting on nags.

 

[FetteredChinos]

i remember the good old days, when everyone used to be nice and courteous to each other.


mods, can we stop this thread getting out of hand too please?

 

[tradesmart]

I remember the good old days when a pint of mild was 6d…….

So does Socrates …….

This is the difference between us and you and you’ll never catch up…..


Never………..

And we help old ladies across the road…….do you…….?


and all of this is your fault not ours........

 

[ChartMan]

Yes,calm down please and there is no ned to be rude or offensive in getting your point over.....

My 2p worth, as an unbiased comment, as I have no take on the subject either way.
It's like this, in all things when it comes to copying/emulating.... IF you don't understand what's going on, DON'T do it. Those that understand my Dow methods do well from it. Those that don't undersand it, don't do well.
If you can't understand what Socratees is telling you, you'll never benefit.
If you don't understand it, how can you justify claiming that it is garbage, or brilliant?

 

[temptrader]

I give up and will tactfully leave you all alone. . . .

 

[trendie]

temptrader,

"cut your losses short...." ??

 

[Two Bars]

To temptrader:

I apologize if I was too forthright in my post.

 

[FetteredChinos]

aww i love a decent reconciliation.

this is just like Sunset Beach

 

[bracke]

Is this a 15 post argument or the 30 post argument. Remember Monty Python ?

Regards

bracke

 

[trendie]

HA-HA !! Nobody expects the 30-post argument !!

Oops - wrong sketch.

 

[tradesmart]

I'm sure that the last thing that Socrates would have wanted would have been to polarise and create conflict and friction between T2W members......

He always avoided anything inflammatory.......

 

[temptrader]

To Two Bars,

Since someone has encouraged me vi PM I will answers your questions:

QUOTE:

>You tell us all about horse racing tipsters. What do horse racing tipsters and syndicates have to do with being able to trade? Absolutely nothing.<

well you see the method we have we could be laying on 6 losers in a row to get a winner at the end. How many people would have the guts to do that? And we also see patterns on the horse's performance that allows us that little extra edge to our plans.

QUOTE:

>You bet on the horses and now you want to poke around in trading to make some money. There is nothing which connects six legs travelling at speed across grass with financial institutions manipulating markets with billions of dollars of money.<

Big Boys play games to suit their own interests, so do trainers of horses, but sometimes the horses don't deliver because there's an extra factor in the perception of the trainer of horse and how he rates the horses ability. He is also under pressure from the owner to make his living (trainers and jockeys get about 10% of the prize money in a race when they win). You can bet your life that there are sneeaky little tricks behind the races (usually ALWAYS LEGAL) if you analyse it and look at it carefully. I could talk a Socrates like stance on this . . . but I don't want to give it all away. Suffice to say that there are about 10 - 20 selections per year that my friend could predict with 90% certainty - the problem is that they don't come often.

The markets are similar, horse racing is much harder. Big Boys play games like cutting out shorts, retractments etc . . . Along with other market factors that would take ages to explain. You are better off experiencing it yourself than talking about it.

QUOTE:

>That proves that you do not understand what is being discussed because you are a newbie and this subject is for ADVANCED TRADERS.
The subject being discussed is the formation of the correct mindset to be able to trade at world class levels, not a bit of betting on nags..<

Mr Socrates animal stories are nothing new to me, since you are speaking to a biological mathematician. What he has expounded is simple and elementary to someone like me and is accessible to anyone who takes time and effort to understand the literature. For animal behaviour you want to read Morris, Dawkins, Tinbergen, Lorenz, von Frisch, Trivers, Hamilton etc. . . . I could tell you all a thing or two about Game Theory and Cannablism in chimps, Altruistic behaviour in bees and other such things, and maybe we could discuss about Gene Selfishness and its central role in human altruistic behaviour . . . .

QUOTE:

>Be honest with yourself, you have only tried to read Socrates posts because you are desperate to find a cheap quick way to make money in the trading markets, just like you were with trying to make money on horse races. You didn't find a method revealed by Socrates - BECAUSE NO METHOD HAS EVER BEEN DISCUSSED.<

Me and my friend had a long discussion about this, and it goes along these lines:

The average person in this world has to work. Which means he has to devete a hefty chunk of his life in a environment not of his choosing (usually of his choosing for the lucky ones). Even worse he might not like what he does but has no choice due to economic pressures etc . . . To get away from this and be "free" (as we would call it) requires great effort and most will not make it. I have never really believed in getting rich quick, and I never believed that the markets were easy (in fact being a successful trader must be the toughest game in the world). And I've made my mistakes of thinking of getting rich on horse racing like other people, but when I realised my mistakes and looked at what it was that was at stake I began to understand.

I am writing this calmly and politely when I say that Socrates has told you nothing that you can't work out for yourselves, and seeing that article about him given in another threads tells you what kind of a person he is.

If he really does have this knowledge consider the following evidence:

1) total lack of compassion to others. Just downright smug superiority.

2) getting irritated and angry and saying that he's going to burn his books and the "stuff" about his trading plan that he was about to give us all for free doesn't show a calm and collected personality. It shows an attention seeking person who wants others approval, hardly the behaviour of someone of superior intellect and psychological robustness of his convictions

3) in the same thread calling others losers does not help. Dear Socrates, there will always be better trades than thou, and they may not even agree at all with what you say, or bother at all with your methods because they have the sensibility to stick to their way.

Let me end with a little about the human condition, to which Mr Socrates (and the rest of us included) is a victim of:

It has been said by the great Friedrich Nietzsche that you give men health, wealth, entertainment etc and they are not happy. They really want power. This is not true of all individuals because of other circumstances, but the basic drive is there. Just as much as men have evolved ways to get power, so have men evolved ways to take power from others and ways to maintain their power. This is what we are seeing here and the game is very complex indeed.

Socrates wants us all in his own image. He thinks his stuff is so advanced that it strato. . damn can't spell the word and can't be bothered . . and some of us are seeing it for what it is, and we are saying NO, and we will keep on saying NO because it's in our nature to.

 

[dc2000]

Nice post temptrader

I see Im not the only one to receive fan mail over the whole Socrates issue


I am one of the "dunces" and have no inclination to become an ADVANCED TRADER but then the shed load I make from the markets is already sufficient for me.

 

[Two Bars]

the shed load I make from the markets is already sufficient for me.

I remember now. Your a vendor and you sell a system. How many copies did you have to sell to earn that shed load?

 

[tradesmart]

This is the shed where I keep my shed load..........

In terms of trading psychology, it's better to see your shed half full rather than half empty...

there is plainly a parallel with the 'glass half full/half empty' syndrome that some mention...

and if you get a bigger shed it might encourage you to trade smarter to fill it faster....

there are all kinds of psychological angles relating to sheds, and thanks to DC for mentioning it in the first place.......

 

[dc2000]

Ah yes " The vendor selling a system" card and of course anyone selling any system couldn't possibly be making money from trading NO they surely couldn't.


Of course +52 points yesterday +40 today with a second position currently +18 could I just be dreaming