CMC Complaint & Ombudsmans Response

[karl6666]

recording

You can do it for almost no cost. If you use Skype to make calls you can record them and screen dumps are free just press "Shift" "PrtSc" and then paste it into Word or any graphics package.


Paul

Yip

im starting to trade forex this year when i get chance, ill be buying the software to record screen time to video files, £30 i reckon

k

:idea:

 

[TheGoose]

Aye, but with futuresbetting you won't be able to close a £2k per point index position unless it's in something like stoxx without spending a couple of minutes working it, usually anyway.

This is a good point and probably the most appropriate response.

If you had £2000 a point in the S&P I would have taken that straight away, but in any other market did you seriously expect them to take it in one go?

I'm a pretty laid back trader on the 'other side' and I would have declined it straight with the message too large, please call in.' If you had reduced it to clips of £200 I would have taken them but not constantly one after the other as that wouldn't give me the chance to hedge.

Building up a position of this size is fine, but closing it in one isn't unless you pick up the phone and speak to a dealer, I think that is fair!

Ian

 

[seguna]

Hello Ian (TheGoose)

Who are you???

 

[seguna]

TomTom,

What you need to do is get this publicised. Stunning to think that a SB company could mess somebody around like this and get away with it.

TomTom

I agree with Ben. Do what you can to get this publicised. Though for anyone to take this seriously, you'll need some sort of evidence to support your alleagtions. In the current market environment, the media will love your story!

I don't know how much you lost/lost out on but at £2000 per point, £2000 is the minimum and that's not small change to anyone!!!

I urge you to take this as far as you can and draw as much attention to it as you can (as long as you can stay sane in the process ). Probably thought you were a nutter trading at that size.If they weren't going to let you close out your trade, why did they let you open it?

 

[Countvonaltibar]

I agree seguna, how come it's ok to open via the web but not to close. These type of operations need to be outed in public. If the SB companies see their reps and therefore their profits decreasing then they might act with more responsibility in future.

 

[TomTom]

This is a good point and probably the most appropriate response.

If you had £2000 a point in the S&P I would have taken that straight away, but in any other market did you seriously expect them to take it in one go?

I'm a pretty laid back trader on the 'other side' and I would have declined it straight with the message too large, please call in.' If you had reduced it to clips of £200 I would have taken them but not constantly one after the other as that wouldn't give me the chance to hedge.

Building up a position of this size is fine, but closing it in one isn't unless you pick up the phone and speak to a dealer, I think that is fair!

Ian

Hi Ian,
All my internet dealing was declined to phone dealer, I requested to sell at smaller size's ( clipping ) and my instructions were declined.
The index was German Dax time was 16.00hrs when I wanted to close.
What I believe happened was none of the position was hedged by CMC and they stood to a considerable amount of money if I were to close the bet.
I find it hard to believe that some phone lines are recorded and others are not at CMC, it must have suited them to report the telephone line I used was not recorded. (but they would)
What also is hard to believe, after requesting under the data protection act the required information to support my complaint (CMC still did not supply this information) both FOS and Commissioners Office has knowledge that CMC took payment of over £100 to supply information of the events that afternoon and did not take action against them, even though it is classed as a criminal offence.
I know the actins of CMC were wrong and unfair and with FOS not believing my account of events ( due to no evidence ) and believing CMC over me what else could I do know ?
Indeed some employees at CMC has a massive guilty conscience, and as for FOS well what a joke !

 

[Kyoto]

I find it hard to believe that some phone lines are recorded and others are not at CMC, it must have suited them to report the telephone line I used was not recorded. (but they would)

I may be wrong, but it had always been my understanding that all phone calls from clients to dealing desks of FSA regulated firms had to be recorded, and failure to do so was considered a serious breach of FSA rules. I'd be quite surprised if this wasn't the case as I had believed, because ultimately it isn't in anyone's interest for there not to be a record, for obvious reasons.

I always saw the FOS as a low-level arbitration service for small disputes. Considering the amount likely involved, I'd have said that consulting specialised financial legal advice in the City would possibly have been of value.

And to add to other comments here, if anyone is having problems with their providers, record calls using Skype, take screenshots and record screens using specialist software or even a digital camera as a low-tech option - most have reasonable video capabilities these days. Catch any of these firms red-handed being economical with the truth and their case will probably sink in front of most reasonable judges.

 

[TomTom]

I may be wrong, but it had always been my understanding that all phone calls from clients to dealing desks of FSA regulated firms had to be recorded

That was my understanding too clearly at CMC theey are not.

 

[Paul-B]

I'm a complete newbie, but surely if you are trading at that sort of level you shouldn't do it through a spreadbetting company?

 

[karl6666]

Tom Tom

Paul -b good point, why are you using a SB company

KKKK

 

[seguna]

Tom Tom
Paul -b good point, why are you using a SB company
KKKK

Probably a host of reasons...convenience, access to multiple instruments and of course the biggie the SB companies really hang their hat on - Tax Free! Hey if you were trading £2K per point you probably wouldn't want to pay tax on your profits either!

Of course, I'm not saying SB is the right vehicle for this level of trading, just offering some justification. Some of us only bothered to learn about DMA futures brokers, ECNs etc, AFTER having being whacked by the SB crowd!

Still, SB has it's place in the market and if used right, is unsurpassed for convenience in my view.

I bet if there were other ways for the masses to get Tax Free trading using DMA techniques the bucket shops would clean up their act FAST....or disappear!!!

 

[seguna]

Come to think of it, someone mentioned something about offshore trading vehicles/entities a while ago, not sure if on this forum or elsewhere.

A lot of the big US hedge funds are based in the Caribbean in tax havens but they use the best technologies to access the markets so this must be a possibility, one way or another.

TomTom a man of your means should be able get some help on this sort of thing. It's AMAZING the tight spreads and speed of execution in the DMA/ECN world. Please look into it matey!!

 

[A Dashing Blade]

. . .
The index was German Dax time was 16.00hrs when I wanted to close.
. . .

So you're trying to close out the equivilent if what 100+ (depending on the fx rate at the time) Dax futures (contract size 25EUR/point) at 16.00!!!!! :-0

You'll have moved the market maybe 25 points if it was an "at market" order imo.

Tbh, and with all due respect, that's an insane position to attempt to come out of.

 

[TomTom]

Hi Dashing Blade,
I do know this, remember all my attempts to clip this trade was refered to telephone dealer, so I could not even clip myself. The dealer refused even to clip M8.
The actual amount of contract that needed to be of loaded was 175 , 15 at a time the market would obsorb with out any cause for concern.

So when the dealer said ' Jitter The Market ' he was right ?

My point of this thread is how FOS failed to fully investigate this on my behalf. I feel if FOS requestef the nececerry information as advised there wold of been enough substance to put a desission in my favor.
Instead in my opinion FOS asked CMC what happened in there opinion and sided with them.

The thing is I was buying at 300 & 400 a point up untill 15.45 then at 16.00 CMC did not want to now.

Trade small and so/so if your lucky however if you have built up large profits in a small amount of time CMC are likely to screw you over like they did me.

The long and short of it is CMC did not hedge this and some ones **** was on the line, then came the tricks/obstruction to stop me from exiting.

I have a statment showing buying action up untill 15.45, then nothing zero.
Not all telephone lines are recorded, this gives dealers the slack to do and say what they want at CMC.

When I have some spare time I will attempt to get this case published so everone can see, I will post origional responces from both CMC and FOS together with requests for information under the data protection act and show over £100 taken out of my bank account with nothing ever been recieved.
It may be a good idea to do a small vidieo too to re enact what really happened.
Todate justice has not been done.
I wonder if the owner Mr Cruddas is aware of such underhanded practises are going on at his company ?

 

[ns1000]

Although I rarely agree with Tom Tom, if everything he says is gospel, he has been royally shafted.

It's acceptable that he cannot trade €2000 per tic online. There are size limits in very market, and the position was opened in multiple clips.

It's not acceptable to refuse trades in every size online for a particular customer without notification.

it's not acceptable to refuse to make a price in size over the phone. This isn't illiquid potato futures after all, but a product in which there is some liquidity whether from natural order flow, or from the underlying market.

All dealing lines should be recorded as a matter of course. They are everywhere else I know of.

 

[gle101]

Although I rarely agree with Tom Tom, if everything he says is gospel, he has been royally shafted.

It's acceptable that he cannot trade €2000 per tic online. There are size limits in very market, and the position was opened in multiple clips.

It's not acceptable to refuse trades in every size online for a particular customer without notification.

it's not acceptable to refuse to make a price in size over the phone. This isn't illiquid potato futures after all, but a product in which there is some liquidity whether from natural order flow, or from the underlying market.

All dealing lines should be recorded as a matter of course. They are everywhere else I know of.

Tom Tom put himself in a terrible position, that is his responsibility. He probably had the margin requirement needed to cover up for the increased position. He couldn't close the position, partly or as a whole, either online or through a dealer. SB is a market maker and that status can easily be abused if really big money is at stake.

 

[ns1000]

Tom Tom put himself in a terrible position, that is his responsibility. He probably had the margin requirement needed to cover up for the increased position. He couldn't close the position, partly or as a whole, either online or through a dealer. SB is a market maker and that status can easily be abused if really big money is at stake.

How did he put himself in a terrible position? It's reasonable to expect to be able to close a position on a liquid, orderly market in the same way as it was opened i.e in smaller clips online. If this wasn't possible, how is it his responsibility that his broker apparently refused to partially close his position over the phone. The market was open, and they were -it must be assumed - still quoting the Dax for other customer. Just not for him.

Margin is irrelevant. He didn't want the trade open, whether to take profit or prevent loss.

As you say, CMC were a market maker. They refused to make a market though - in any size. Again not his responsiblity.

They should have had an obligation to treat him fairly, and if they were making a market for other customers, had an obligation to make him a market in the same price and size.

 

[gle101]

How did he put himself in a terrible position? It's reasonable to expect to be able to close a position on a liquid, orderly market in the same way as it was opened i.e in smaller clips online. If this wasn't possible, how is it his responsibility that his broker apparently refused to partially close his position over the phone. The market was open, and they were -it must be assumed - still quoting the Dax for other customer. Just not for him.

Margin is irrelevant. He didn't want the trade open, whether to take profit or prevent loss.

As you say, CMC were a market maker. They refused to make a market though - in any size. Again not his responsiblity.

They should have had an obligation to treat him fairly, and if they were making a market for other customers, had an obligation to make him a market in the same price and size.

I see your point and understand it. But sorry to say this is not how things work when big money is at stake and you are not in complete control. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely do not defend their behavior, at the same time I am not surprised this can happen with a market maker.

 

[Caps4444]

Why could you not put a stop in place, so at least if it drops it will hit your stop....surely they can't get out of that?

 

[gle101]

Why could you not put a stop in place, so at least if it drops it will hit your stop....surely they can't get out of that?

Yes they can ignore executing the stop if the order is to big. I don't know if CMC offer a guaranteed stop loss though. In his case hedging the position with another broker would have been the natural thing to do.