Capitalism

[Pat494]

An example of capitalism for the average Joe is:-
He sees an opportunity to open a fruit and veg shop in the small town he lives. Spends his savings and opens up. Builds a successful business for about 6 months. Another business man thinks he can do better and opens another fruit & veg shop across the road. Within weeks the first shop closes down. He can't compete on price and his money is gone.

Should the winner be applauded or is it commiserations to the loser ?

There are no prisoners in capitalism

Once the competition has gone broke the winner raises his prices.

 

[Forexmospherian]

That's right, because I apply the principle of Occam's razor. I don't expect you to understand though, so don't ask.

Hi new_trader

A few points -

First of all - are you an American - I ask because you show an GB flag ?

Have you ever travelled in Europe or in any other parts of the World - outside the US ?

You mentioned previously you understand human nature - and maybe that is why you say you detest Socialism. I imagine when you say you understand human nature - you mean people are selfish and greedy and place themselves first normally?

If that is the case - are Capitalist not Human - and do they have a different nature?

All the stuff you quote with regards to Bill of Rights etc - is so antiquated and outdated - it really needs updating

In fact any theory or principle - certainly ones over 50 -100 yrs can always be improved - its because the World today is more Open and man's experience is far greater

I actually enjoy the USA and have spent a lot of time over there on both the West and East Coast - but have found the American People not really very Worldly - more all theory rather than reality and certainly with a "chip" on their shoulder - May that also be another side of human nature ?


Regards


F

 

[Atilla]

An example of capitalism for the average Joe is:-
He sees an opportunity to open a fruit and veg shop in the small town he lives. Spends his savings and opens up. Builds a successful business for about 6 months. Another business man thinks he can do better and opens another fruit & veg shop across the road. Within weeks the first shop closes down. He can't compete on price and his money is gone.

Should the winner be applauded or is it commiserations to the loser ?

There are no prisoners in capitalism

Once the competition has gone broke the winner raises his prices.

I'm a new supplier and see you earning good money at favourable prices to me.

I open up my shop but choose not to undercut your prices, but match them. However, I make sure I pick out the one or two bad fruit and veg and sell only good stuff.

My plan is to compete on quality not price. I win over your customers.

 

[tomorton]

An example of capitalism for the average Joe is:-
He sees an opportunity to open a fruit and veg shop in the small town he lives. Spends his savings and opens up. Builds a successful business for about 6 months. Another business man thinks he can do better and opens another fruit & veg shop across the road. Within weeks the first shop closes down. He can't compete on price and his money is gone.

Should the winner be applauded or is it commiserations to the loser ?

There are no prisoners in capitalism

Once the competition has gone broke the winner raises his prices.

But in a free capitalist economy, what's to stop a third business man coming in and offering lower prices than the second guy?

 

[Atilla]

But in a free capitalist economy, what's to stop a third business man coming in and offering lower prices than the second guy?

Nothing and that's what makes capitalism great.

If an entrepreneur sees an opportunity he risks capital and goes for it. Fabbo. :clap:

 

[Pat494]

Nothing and that's what makes capitalism great.

If an entrepreneur sees an opportunity he risks capital and goes for it. Fabbo. :clap:

What if the first guy has friends in the heavy department and owns favours from the cops as in so many 3rd world countries ?

 

[Atilla]

What if the first guy has friends in the heavy department and owns favours from the cops as in so many 3rd world countries ?

Well that may be perceived as "State Capitalism"...

What we do here is ignore the favours provided by "State".

Assume it never happened.


So applying the principle of Occam's razor we are simply left with "Capitalism"...

 

[new_trader]

Once the competition has gone broke the winner raises his prices.

This theory has been discredited by almost every economist on the planet, left and right! This theory only exists in the minds of people who haven't done any research into it.

All businesses hate competition, that's true. However once the competition has been eliminated the remaining business can't raise prices because it provides profit opportunity for a new business to enter the market.

 

[Pat494]

I think another valid criticism of capitalism is that it ruins the environment in the mad dash for money. The oceans are being depleted of fish from over fishing and filled with rubbish and chemical run-offs. The forests and animals are disappearing at an alarming rate from exploitation etc. etc.

Mankind should give more thought and protection to the environment as we rely on it for life continuing. Mere money figures on a bank statement is no compensation.

 

[Pat494]

Well that may be perceived as "State Capitalism"...

What we do here is ignore the favours provided by "State".

Assume it never happened.


So applying the principle of Occam's razor we are simply left
with "Capitalism"...

I would prefer to call it criminal anarchy. Surely there is a better way ?

 

[Atilla]

This theory has been discredited by almost every economist on the planet, left and right! This theory only exists in the minds of people who haven't done any research into it.

All businesses hate competition, that's true. However once the competition has been eliminated the remaining business can't raise prices because it provides profit opportunity for a new business to enter the market.

Predatory pricing will always be with us. It takes many guises and difficult to prove from competitive pricing. The ones that are highlighted and reported are also just tip of the iceberg.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ions-of-predatory-pricing-over-fuel-cost.html

http://news.sky.com/story/1511762/us-airlines-face-price-fixing-investigation

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101799842

 

[Atilla]

I would prefer to call it criminal anarchy. Surely there is a better way ?

Organised crime or organised capitalism? Is there a distinction? :cheesy:

There is no anarchy. Even anarchist know how to organise them selves. :idea:

 

[Pat494]

How do you respond to the criticism that capitalism vastly helps trash the planet of its resources ? ( illegal loggers, over fishing etc. )

There is a little reassurance that some of the very rich do care enough to try and protect the rain forest etc. Eco warriors are needed not blood spilling jihadis.

 

[tomorton]

How do you respond to the criticism that capitalism vastly helps trash the planet of its resources ? ( illegal loggers, over fishing etc. )

I don't see the extraction and use of natural resources as a failure of capitalism, its a failure of government to regulate use of and access to the resources. This of course can happen within any economic structure. However, the grossest examples of eco damage have come from capitalist structures becuse they are simply more efficient at identifying market needs and opportunities.

We should not be duped by politicians who would have us blame bankers and business men for the world's ills.

 

[Splitlink]

I don't see the extraction and use of natural resources as a failure of capitalism, its a failure of government to regulate use of and access to the resources. This of course can happen within any economic structure. However, the grossest examples of eco damage have come from capitalist structures becuse they are simply more efficient at identifying market needs and opportunities.

We should not be duped by politicians who would have us blame bankers and business men for the world's ills.

I don't agree

 

[Splitlink]

I don't see the extraction and use of natural resources as a failure of capitalism, its a failure of government to regulate use of and access to the resources. This of course can happen within any economic structure. However, the grossest examples of eco damage have come from capitalist structures becuse they are simply more efficient at identifying market needs and opportunities.

We should not be duped by politicians who would have us blame bankers and business men for the world's ills.

I don't agree. I believe that big business influences government. Right wing governments decry any form of legislation. You are right about governments telling us, when they are in power (but I would not say that they are "duping" us) that big business is to blame. They are right, but they are the tools of big business.

Do not tell me that Rio Tinto, BP, Esso, etc. do not influence government. They are the big extractors of the world's resources and, when they have finished extracting in an area they leave it in a shambles, if there is no legislation.

Without being a socialist, I do face realities. The two party system ie. left and right, is useless in today's world. But it is taking us a long time to realise it.

 

[new_trader]

Hi new_trader

A few points -

First of all - are you an American - I ask because you show an GB flag ?

No, I am not American.

Have you ever travelled in Europe or in any other parts of the World - outside the US ?

I am not American and I have probably travelled to as many places around the world as you have. I also have close friends and family in different countries around the world.

You mentioned previously you understand human nature - and maybe that is why you say you detest Socialism. I imagine when you say you understand human nature - you mean people are selfish and greedy and place themselves first normally?

*LOL*...No the complete opposite! I know people are lazy and would gladly rely on others to do the work for them, that's why I detest Socialism - it removes all incentives to work hard, that's one reason it eventually fails every time it is tried. History proves this time and again. Any idiot can redistribute wealth but it requires true genius and effort to create it.

If that is the case - are Capitalist not Human - and do they have a different nature?

Capitalism provides the incentive for people to work, innovate and generally improve the standard of living of others. It is self-interest that motivates people to do the best for themselves and as a consequence, everyone benefits.

All the stuff you quote with regards to Bill of Rights etc - is so antiquated and outdated - it really needs updating

Really?

• Is one of the roles of Government to protect our rights or to take them away? It can't be both because that is a conflict of interest.
• Why do you think the Colonists of America fought a war of independence from Britain? Was it because they wanted more Government tyranny or less? Now you think you know better than people who actually fought and died for their independence?
• What is the role of the Supreme Court in the US?

 

[new_trader]

How do you respond to the criticism that capitalism vastly helps trash the planet of its resources ? ( illegal loggers, over fishing etc. )

By having private property rights that's how. Have you ever heard of the term "Tragedy of the commons"?

There is a little reassurance that some of the very rich do care enough to try and protect the rain forest etc. Eco warriors are needed not blood spilling jihadis.

If there were private property rights, all you tree hugging conservationists could pool your money and buy up the rain forests you want to protect. But no, you want to use the Government to force me and other taxpayers to pay for the protection of everything you think is important.

 

[Atilla]

No, I am not American.



I am not American and I have probably travelled to as many places around the world as you have. I also have close friends and family in different countries around the world.



*LOL*...No the complete opposite! I know people are lazy and would gladly rely on others to do the work for them, that's why I detest Socialism - it removes all incentives to work hard, that's one reason it eventually fails every time it is tried. History proves this time and again. Any idiot can redistribute wealth but it requires true genius and effort to create it.



Capitalism provides the incentive for people to work, innovate and generally improve the standard of living of others. It is self-interest that motivates people to do the best for themselves and as a consequence, everyone benefits.



Really?

• Is one of the roles of Government to protect our rights or to take them away? It can't be both because that is a conflict of interest.
• Why do you think the Colonists of America fought a war of independence from Britain? Was it because they wanted more Government tyranny or less? Now you think you know better than people who actually fought and died for their independence?
• What is the role of the Supreme Court in the US?

NT no one disagrees with the free enterprise risk taking of the entrepreneur, the work effort to make a profit.

No one disagrees with freedom and private ownership.


Disagreements are about market structure that becomes and the all consuming dangers of power.


Why allow a little fledgling of a new entrepreneur grow and take market share when one can stamp it out and maintain dominance and income flow.

You are at the little corner shop end of the market and capitalism whilst totally belligerent to the mega corporations abusing market dominance and allocation of numeration and regulation and everything else.

The invisible hand can work for the individual & social interest but also against, in particular behind closed doors, against the interest of the many and social interest likewise.

 

[Splitlink]

incentive[/U] for people to work, innovate and generally improve the standard of living of others. It is self-interest that motivates people to do the best for themselves and as a consequence, everyone benefits.

[/LIST]

You feed us discutible arguments and then you beat us over the head with technical explanations that I, for one, do not pretend to understand.

The "self-interest" is the reason that 10% of the world's population owns 90% of the wealth. The exact statistic escapes me, but I think that I am erring on the side of the very rich.

They are the reason that capital corrupts. They would, ruthlessly, close down a plant and put a whole town out of work. That is the reason why companies, like Amazon, Starbucks and the like locate registered offices in places like Luxenbourg so as to avoid taxes. Guess who got rewarded with the top job in Brissels, BTW!

Self-interest makes people work for less money, so as to pay the rent and put food on the table. Human kindness is not a trait that is much seen in capital circles. Self interest is plentiful.