Bush's Visit!

[qaza]

[B
one evil dictator down and time for all evil bullies to wake up and smell the coffee, and even for benevelant dictatorships to see that democracy is the only way to go [/B]

Yeah Man ! Right On !

Democracy is the way forward and if anyone disagrees we'll kick yer ass in line. Tony and George know what the world needs. {stevet ........you're as bad as the loony left}

So far the Iraq war has cost close to 100 billion dollars. I wonder what the Muslim world's reaction would have been if tony and george had spent that money on Palestine instead?

 

[grubs50]

So what have the coalition inspectors found since they had the freedom to search Iraq? Zilch!!, Stevet, even with all your loyalty to Blair and Bush, you have to admit that the world is now a more dangerous place since 9-11, thx to Bush's 'brilliant' policy. It's easy to send other people's children to war and if memory serves me right, Bush was even a draft dodger so he obviously knows the risk of fighting in a war.
And if it was such a brilliant decision to go to war, why the sudden change of policy? i.e looking for an early exit strategy which would obviously leave the Iraq in chaos.

 

[options]

Democracy? Your having a laugh! There are only varying forms of different dictatorship. we just happen to have the best. At least you don't have our governments committing mass murder on our own people and burying the results in a shallow grave. (Our lot do it at a much slower pace.) (Have you tried signing on at the social lately?)

Bad as the loony left? I thought they were the pc correct bunch?

"So far the Iraq war has cost close to 100 billion dollars. I wonder what the Muslim world's reaction would have been if tony and george had spent that money on Palestine instead?"

"...the Iraq war has cost close to 100 billion dollars..."

Depends what paper you read.

'...the Muslims' world reaction would have been if Tony and George had spent all that money on Palestine instead...'

Probably. Is that all? Can we come over and get and get a house and social benefit now.

Might as well, the English people that are entitled to it are seeing fuck all of it.

 

[stevet]

grubs

"you have to admit that the world is now a more dangerous place since 9-11,"

yes - and that is kinda the point - 911 did happen and it showed that any warp minded and spoilt kid with a bit of money could use religeon as a front to manipulate and control others into acting out his own evil fantasies -

and that was a wake up call for those who we democraticallyu elect to take the kind of decisions that we lot sitting in our armchairs have the luxury of supporting or moaning about from a safe distance

 

[stevet]

qaza

"So far the Iraq war has cost close to 100 billion dollars. I wonder what the Muslim world's reaction would have been if tony and george had spent that money on Palestine instead?"

i am not real happy about this one country and its history - israel - causing so much problems in the world - and personally if i had to power - i would just give it back to whoever wants it - and solve this in one go

but of course a whole load of other stuff would i guess turn up with other countries - how far back to do you go undoing old boundaries

but re the 100 billion dollars or whatever it is - the arab world is and has been real rich - and cash rich at that - why have the arab states not pumped billions in themselves if that would solve anythng

 

[stevet]

grubs50

a war is when one countries people fight another countries people

the iraq "war" was about releasing people from a prison and the "war" was with the prison guards who were miliking the country dry and feathering their own nests

the "war" happened since an evil bully dicator ignored the demands of the UN for 10 years and was told the game is up - he was told pretty clearly over a year that he had had enough time to comply- you invaded kuwait - this is the result - no more ****ing around or you are out on your ear - saddam did not comply - and he is out on his ear

and a whole country of people are free to have the chance to live in a democratic country - if they want to **** that away - thats up to them - but they have the chance if they want it

 

[stevet]

grubs50

"Democracy is the way forward and if anyone disagrees we'll kick yer ass in line. Tony and George know what the world needs. {stevet ........you're as bad as the loony left}"

no - not if anyone disagrees - if its clear the people of a country are being abused and suffereing at the hands of a dictator who is stealing that county's wealth and using intimidation and fear to control the people of that country - they should start to know that the free world aint gonna put up with it - so better they start packing their bags now - bundle up their cash in some bin liners and go find a nice beach to sit on - so the people of that country can start to learn to be free and have democratic rights and share in the resources of the country

 

[madasafish]

Steve .. you said:" its clear the people of a country are being abused and suffereing at the hands of a dictator who is stealing that county's wealth and using intimidation and fear to control the people of that country - they should start to know that the free world aint gonna put up with it - so better they start packing their bags now - bundle up their cash in some bin liners and go find a nice beach to sit on - so the people of that country can start to learn to be free and have democratic rights and share in the resources of the country"

So when are the US going to deal with the House of Saud?

Fits your admirable description clearly...

 

[stevet]

but even benevelant dictatorships like saudia arabia have to take on board that if the country is not democratic and even if everyone is enjoying a good life style and being looked after - there will always be a tin pot lot of bullies who will use the lack of democracy as an excuse to manipulate and take advantage of weaker minded people to do their evil bidding

 

[suggy]

we have had more acts of terrorism after the war on terrorism was declared than b4, doesn't that simple fact show that the whole approach is wrong.......

I would rather not preserve a status quo of flying planes into buildings. The US has little experience of fighting terrorism, and I think it might have overestimated the importance of geography and holding the land. Like I said, more scalpel required. The apparent escape of SD and BL shows how limited our much vaunted resources are. A much more methodical and calculated approach needs to be shown.

Stevet - Unfortunately that has been the case of every governmental system since civilisation evolved. Democracy is no guarantor against tinpot bullies. Just because you do not see them does not mean they are not there. Why then is a benevolent dictatorship worse than democracy?

 

[stevet]

suggy

"Why then is a benevolent dictatorship worse than democracy?
"

sorry, not sure what you mean?

 

[madasafish]

stevet
You have not answered my question on the House of Saud..

A benevolent dictatorship? What a strange description for a country which supplied many of the perpetrators of 9/11 and funded and probably still funds Al Quaeda and whose official religion is a sect which preaches a militant form of Islam.

Come on: you have got to be consistent in your approach to dictatorships or is it the old US adage " he's our bastaaard"?

 

[suggy]

You're argument against benevolent dictatorships was that they are a breeding ground for 'tinpot' bullies. I merely made the point that these 'tinpot' bullies exist in every form of government. And tbh, if people are not only happy but better off under a 'benevolent' dictatorship then I would see no need to go to war with them. This is not about inflicting our world view on people who do not want it, it is about eliminating oppression and ensuring that these people have the right to choose.

 

[grubs50]

I hope in a few years time that Iraq would be a stable democracy , if only cos of the lives that have been lost in the pursuit of this dream, but i have a sneaky feeling that the country would be in a bigger mess for a few years to come. Even in Afghanistan, where i feel the war was justified to some extent, the so-called interim leader is virtually only in control of Kabul (the capital).......he can't just venture to anywhere in the country even with all the protection of the US army. US soldiers and other innocent people (from other voluntary services) are being killed but it is now a 'forgotten war' so it doesn't get any publicity.
Stevet, i would love to have the altruistic vision u have abt these things but it is not like that in reality. There needs to be a radical change in approach to this war against terrorism by trying to sort out the root cause of this evil.

 

[stevet]

madasafish

sorry - cant work out your point or why you think i did not answer it

the house of saud went out of their way to plough the riches of saudia arabia back into the infrastructure of the country - from housing, to communications, health service to everything

sure a bunch of princes and they have a lot - cream off a pile of money - but thats kinda how their system works - they still do the best deal - but they get their salary by just getting suppliers to give them a cut out of the suppliers profit

but saudi arabia is a sort of 5 star country - but even so - and even because - some have a lot of money and have a lot of time and perhaps they are nutty with it - they are going to look for mischief to get up to - and if the country is not democratic - it makes it easy to attack the core of the country - so absolutly - the saudi people have had a great and luxurious ride on the back of the saud family - but all the postive work by the saud family in building saudi is going to get undone if they dont initate bringing in real democracy

 

[stevet]

grubs50

the root cause is the same as it has always been and always will be - evil ****ed up people using religeon or some other cause as a way to lead and manipulatate others to do what the cowardly bullies dont want to do themselves

so one theory is to take out countries where these people might be able to freely expand their power base - of course that drives them underground - but at least it makes it harder for them to operate and over time - one by one , try to rid the world of them

 

[grubs50]

Are you for real?, u want to take out another country!!! I hope u meant that tongue in cheek.

 

[stevet]

grubs50

duh!

not the country! - the crooks stealing a country's wealth and keeping the country's people suppressed with fear

the people in the civilised world have a duty not to ignore the suffering being caused by a few crackpot dictators

 

[reddragon]

Hi,
Iwould like to point out that as a result of the 2nd Gulf war
that Iran finally opened up it's nuclear programme to
western inspectors. Result - they found evidence of weapons
grade plutonium, ok - perhaps that doesn't mean that they have
made nuclear weapons, but 20+ yrs ago Iran/Iraq were at
each others throats, and as far as i'm aware they aren't
exactly best chums nowadays. What would have things been
like if Iran had continued it's nuclear programme un-checked by
the West, would Saddam Hussein have sat back and allowed
his worst enemy to gain an advantage?
Reddragon.

 

[madasafish]

Reddragon
"What would have things been
like if Iran had continued it's nuclear programme un-checked by
the West, would Saddam Hussein have sat back and allowed
his worst enemy to gain an advantage?"


What nuclear program are you referring to?

The only one Iraq had was dismantled in the mid 1990s by Un and has never been restarted.. despite what the US (Colin Powel/Bush etc said) .. and no evidence has been found to support any claims that it was.

I do not disagree that SH would have loved to have nuclear weapons and would have used them if he had.. but he had not .

To use that as an argument for invading Iraq when it was patently untrue before the war (what do US spy satellites do?.. tell lies?) is just sophistry and not very subtle as well.