Boot's Trading

I agree with the first part - your stops should be placed where it is obvious that the trade is wrong and away from any noise. And I also agree that you shouldn't move your stops all over the place for no reason.

However, I do think that your ongoing management of a trade should include a regular review to assess whether the trade is still valid and you can justify keeping it open. The reason I asked the question about your strategy for managing this trade is because I think in this trade you missed some obvious signals to close it early.

Here's my tuppence worth:

Initially I wouldn't have taken the trade and my reasons for that are posted previously, so when I look at your trade I am seeing it from a different perspective than you, which you should bear in mind.

If I did take this trade, as I wrote before, I would be very aggressive with how I managed it. I would be looking for early confirmation that I was correct in my read of the chart and look for it to go into profit quickly.

Lets look at what happened over the last two days: you entered Tues morning at 695, price quickly fell to 665, which is great. However, the markets rallied Tues afternoon and the price came back to around 695. That's not a good sign as it shows that the selling pressure couldn't sustain a down day.

So I wake up Weds morning and see that the US markets had a very bullish afternoon after the Fed rate cut and the Asian markets confirmed this overnight. So I know that the FTSE will probably gap up on the open and sure enough LMI opens up a little. Then the price falls to 690, rallies up to over 700 and then falls to 690 again. Then it starts to rally again. At the same time the FTSE is also going up. At this point on Weds morning I would have closed this trade for break even or maybe a small loss, and I had wondered if you would do the same, which is why I asked you about it. Here's why:

The general market sentiment has been bullish for the last couple of days, LMI has stalled at 665 and now it has stalled twice at 690. It is in the process of forming a higher low from the Dec 5th bottom. This tells me that there is no great appetite for selling this stock and the bulls are taking control. The trade has gone into profit but couldn't sustain it and is now showing signs of a bullish rally. The FTSE is going up, so another bullish day will take this trade into loss. Rather than wait for my stop to be hit to confirm that the trade has gone wrong, I would rather close for as little damage as possible and look for another entry signal.

If I am wrong and the stock falls, so be it, I don't lose much if anything. If I am right then I save myself some losses and possibly get a short entry at a better price when the rally runs out of steam.
 
Mid-morning update.
Bish-bash-bosh....all trades have been stopped out:
Closed trades:
LMI; Stopped at 747; -£104.00
PFC; Stopped at 345: -£65.00
AHT; Stopped at 41.5; -£47.30
Total: -£216.30

Wednesday's close: cash £9,136.90, open P/L -£84.00, total £9,052.90
Currently: cash £8,920.60, open P/L £0.00, total £8920.60

Change on yesterday: -£132.30
Change on week:-£217.50

Back to the drawing board
 
bbb

a couple of points;

1. I'd shut up shop 'til the New Year now. Early December onward is always a funny old time and there's lot of crazy movements that can blow your chart analysis apart. Dunno why, traders balancing their year-end books and/or positioning themselves for next year maybe.

2. I agree with Poker, particular when you're trading against the market (remember I've got FTSE in swing uptrend atm), but I think you're right to rely on your eod chart for your primary decisions. Whilst there is some intraday action that may be extremely pertinent, you'll find yourself shaken out of a lot of good trades if you pay too much attention to it.

good trading

jon
 
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BBB - there is nothing wrong with how you set up your entries. It is just that you are using it to find short positions in a market that is no longer trending down.

You and I have a very similar strategy for picking out swing trades, but at the moment I am only taking long positions. I'm not saying that I am right and you are wrong, but there is a critical difference between how we read the overall market conditions at the moment.

I never take trades against the current market trend, as they are just too difficult to manage. And I assess the market trend by looking at the index moving averages. I use 10 and 30 SMA just as a rough guide for the overall trend. As the FTSE 10 has recently crossed above the 30, I am now ignoring all short signals that I get. It's not foolproof but it helps me avoid the kind of scenario that you have just experienced.

BarJon - I would be interested in hearing how you assess the market conditions as well.
 
Thanks Jon. Let me see if I understand your chart:

When the FTSE breaks the high of the previous swing (red line) then it is in an upward swing trend.

When it fails to make a new low (blue line), then it remains in an upward swing.
 
Thanks Jon. Let me see if I understand your chart:

When the FTSE breaks the high of the previous swing (red line) then it is in an upward swing trend.

When it fails to make a new low (blue line), then it remains in an upward swing.

yes, that's about it. The blue line is actually taken as the first correction (swing low) after the upward trend change. It followed a failed one (red circled) and the white line is the long entry point.

I usually think of swing trend changes as a series of lights. For a change to up, the first light for me generally comes when the high of the last swinghigh bar goes and then other lights come on in confirmation. How many lights you need to be lit before deciding that it's a trend change (and therefore trading it) depends on individual approaches.

good trading

jon
 
Cheers guys!
Thanks for you messages and advice.
Yes I'm going to shut shop for the year now. I don't there's much action this time of the year.
Actually I'm on holiday for a month in the new year so I probably won't be trading again until March time.
I'd like to keep this thread going, maybe discussing trading strategies if anyone is interested.
Thanks for all your valuable advice and support so far!
Adam
 
BBB - have you ever checked out the Interactive Investor website? Free Portfolio, Share dealing, ISAs, PEPs, SIPPs, CFDs, Spread betting - Interactive Investor

They have a very good range of info and indicators for every stock, and I like to check this when I am scanning stocks. They also do a technical insight page on each stock where they monitor the formation of chart patterns, MA crossovers, oscillators and indicators, and list them as to whether they are bullish or bearish etc. This can help to confirm if you are entering a trend with continued momentum or one that is running out of memonetum.

For example, the chart of Lonmin shows a number of bullish signals around the 15th December. After a long period of bearish signals, this would have made me pause and rethink a short trade.
 
BBB - have you ever checked out the Interactive Investor website? Free Portfolio, Share dealing, ISAs, PEPs, SIPPs, CFDs, Spread betting - Interactive Investor

They have a very good range of info and indicators for every stock, and I like to check this when I am scanning stocks. They also do a technical insight page on each stock where they monitor the formation of chart patterns, MA crossovers, oscillators and indicators, and list them as to whether they are bullish or bearish etc. This can help to confirm if you are entering a trend with continued momentum or one that is running out of memonetum.

For example, the chart of Lonmin shows a number of bullish signals around the 15th December. After a long period of bearish signals, this would have made me pause and rethink a short trade.


Yes I've seen it before. I prefer to use prorealtime and screen for stocks using that. It has all the main indicators and you can adjust the settings as you wish. It's also good because you can program your own indicators fairly easily (I found the programming a bit difficult at first but soon got used to it and I'm not exactly a computer whizz)

Actually these days I don't use all that much in the way of indicators, maybe just a simple moving average for the trend. Most of my back-testing on strategies using oscillators, MA cross-overs, etc have yielded pretty mediocre returns at best. I found variations on Elder's triple screening systems that he uses in his “Trading for a living” book to be fairly good but nothing that couldn't be achieved from price action alone in my opinion.

I don't think there was anything particularly “wrong” with the system I was using. I was taking small short positions (1% risk) in a rising (?) market. I didn't have any full (2% risk) long positions as I wasn't getting any set-ups. I think the difficulty at present may be more due to the fact that the market may be changing direction. Once the market trend is more clear I think I will be getting more signals that agree with the market direction. I suppose you could say that my system lags the market which is fine when the market is trending but once the trend changes direction there will be a lag in getting signals in the same direction as the new trend.

On a slightly different note I am currently working on a breakout system which is showing promise across all markets (stocks, indices, commodities, forex) (another plug for prorealtime here; it does have an amazing array of free EOD data to test on), I want to test it a bit more first though.

I'd be interested to hear what people here think of using 2 or more systems simultaneously. Do you think having more than one complicates things too much? Or would using systems based on different strategies compliment each other to give more consistent returns?

Thanks PokerBrat for keeping this thread going!
 
I agree with you BBB - there is nothing wrong with your signalling system, it's just that the market had stopped trending in that direction.

Personally, I would avoid using two different systems until you are proficient and profitable in one. It is an easy mistake to make when you first start out, chopping and changing from one system to the next trying to find one that works. And if you have two systems competing for your brain power you will end up master of neither.

I am an advocate of the KISS principle - find a simple strategy that provides a reasonable win ratio, apply strict money management and focus all your effort on learning that system inside out.
 
Yes, me too.

In the same way that we talked about getting to know individual shares and their quirks intimately, so can you get to know your "system" and the price action that surrounds it. I put "system" in inverted commas because I think you will find that it will gradually evolve into a discretionary approach based on that system as you come to really know and understand it. You don't want to clutter yourself up with other things while that's going on.

Have a great Christmas (you too poker :D)

jon
 
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