Backgrounds of Successful Traders

[pkfryer]

Actually, who says that coming to the conclusion that the 'market' is illogical and has random factors isn't a scientific conclusion? Social psychology is a science, probability is a science. I think you are missing the point when you think science is rigidly stating that A and B = C. Infact, science comes to whatever conclusion is most appropriate unbias by emotions or opinions.

If something is random, it can be analysised and found to be such. Its the lack of emotion and the willingness to let the facts answer for themselves.

The fact is that it is possible to profit from the market, that there are ways to win... being able to analyse and research with detachment is an excellent quality.

 

[wisestguy]

>>Actually, who says that coming to the conclusion that the 'market' is illogical and has random factors >>isn't a scientific conclusion?

irrelevant .

known science has finite boundaries and as such the process can be manipulated to confirm the calculations .

no way you can do that with the market profitably over the long term. even so called mechanical systems have had the human factor programmed in it.


>>Social psychology is a science, probability is a science. I think you are missing the point when you think >science is rigidly stating that A and B = C. Infact, science comes to whatever conclusion is most >>appropriate unbias by emotions or opinions.


SP is not a science in the way physics and maths are .

>>why does science and emotion have to be seprarte ? most serious scientists are passionate about >>their subject .


being emotionally nuetral has nothing to do with being a scientist .



>>If something is random, it can be analysised and found to be such. Its the lack of emotion and the >>willingness to let the facts answer for themselves.


so what , analysis is not the sole providence of hard science , gut feel for eg. can come into it , as can chart observation - hardly a science.



>>The fact is that it is possible to profit from the market, that there are ways to win... being able to analyse >>and research with detachment is an excellent quality.


a quality not exclusive to scientists

 

[JumpOff]

scientific types believe in finite results and methodologies , that the markets are basically one giant equation which can be solved mathematically .

biggest load of bull I ever heard , news to them, but the market is made up of and moved by humans with all their non locigal , non math failings . hence the market never behaves logically or scientifically.

I'm not buying that one. If there is no advantage to recognizing a setup, backtesting to see if the following action is something different than 50:50 up:down, and acting at the point of lowest risk, then why look at a chart at all? Why learn the setups and make a trading plan? Why not just randomly pick an entry point and let money management handle it from there?


JO

 

[wisestguy]

>>I'm not buying that one.

Are you implying that I need / want to impress you ? if so , the old saying - don't flatter yourself comes to mind.

these are my opinions , take it or leave it , I don't really care

very reflective of the neo American culture where popularity is valued over substance , hence giving the masses a false sense of " king making " power.



>>If there is no advantage to recognizing a setup, backtesting to see if the following action is something >>different than 50:50 up:down, and acting at the point of lowest risk, then why look at a chart at all? Why >>learn the setups and make a trading plan? Why not just randomly pick an entry point and let money >>management handle it from there?


so charts , set ups and backtesting are the sole reserve of " scientists " are they ? LOL .

I could teach a garbage man to do this in a week , so much for needing a phd to use simple trading tools.

If those with a science background had an inherent advantage then they would all be rich men instead most top traders are from non science backgrounds.

 

[des44]

Showing true colors. It's all becoming quite clear.

d-

 

[SvenFoster]

I'm not sure any profession can help you to trade and I'd go as far as to say that trading is so foreign that any job will only serve as a hinderance to learning it(with the possible exception of fruit and veg stalls ). Most jobs can be disected into "skills" that would be useful or helpful but we've all worked with people doing the same job as us and everyone of them has different personallities(or none) or skills.

It seems to me that irrespective of the job you do its how you approach it, your ability to see the problem and your discipline that will ultimately lead to sucess.

Coming from a technical background i immediately found my self trying to develop the worlds greatest indicators, systems by leveraging my current skills... this didn't work and i've had to develop new skills(still developing new skills.) It strikes me that if I'd known how difficult it would have been or how much my head would hurt I might have skipped it.

Now as for jobs that will attract traders I'm convinced that's real.

 

[des44]

I am good Friends with a fine trader (40 yrs experience and 20 yrs full-time). I am fortunate enough to have him in my investor's club. He knows a man that moved from old Russia to America year's ago; not knowing a thing about Capitalism and learned how to trade while here. His occupation in Russia was a top level bomb defuser. My friend swears that his exceptional success at trading (10,000 shares at a time) was due partly by his job (bomb defuser). Interesting, to say the least.

d-

 

[pkfryer]

Too right des.

Lighten up MrWisestGuy we are all friends here, no ones attacking you.

My opinion of the matter is that everyone is different, our personalities are unique and we probably all require different traits to be a good trader based on our uniqueness as human beings. Because I have a very strong creative side and have many ideas and thoughts, I'm not grounded that much. So I need a scientific/engineering approach to steer me in the right direction, which I gained through my work. Someone with strong logic would probably need to develop their creativity and understanding of human nature, etc.

 

[maxpain]

I am good Friends with a fine trader (40 yrs experience and 20 yrs full-time). I am fortunate enough to have him in my investor's club. He knows a man that moved from old Russia to America year's ago; not knowing a thing about Capitalism and learned how to trade while here. His occupation in Russia was a top level bomb defuser. My friend swears that his exceptional success at trading (10,000 shares at a time) was due partly by his job (bomb defuser). Interesting, to say the least.

d-

"(bomb defuser)" or trader or brain surgeon or kamikaze pilot takes a lot of guts as well as good nerves. Russians are often regarded as top mathematicians so I guess your source is telling you the truth. Doing your DD short/long term as well as setting up your targets and stick to them takes some good nerves. Today everybody is told to play the market with the stop/loss-function you have in many trading applications. MM´s are aware of that and the sure take advantage of it. A scared Trader will never be a good trader. (own experience)

 

[henry766]

well donald thats something me and soros have in common , both sold icecream on beach !!( and trade fx i guess)

 

[wisestguy]

>>It seems to me that irrespective of the job you do its how you approach it, your ability to see the problem >>and your discipline that will ultimately lead to sucess.

This is correct


>>Lighten up MrWisestGuy we are all friends here, no ones attacking you.

No, sorry that is not right . I never said anyone was attacking me , so please save the " I'm a peacemaker , give me a bit of attention " b#ll#cks. it's so obvious it's doesn't even score on the sneakiness scale.

I have my view , I give it , what others think , that's up to them , NOT you .


>>My opinion of the matter is that everyone is different, our personalities are unique and we probably all >>require different traits to be a good trader based on our uniqueness as human beings. Because I have >>a very strong creative side and have many ideas and thoughts, I'm not grounded that much.


No, there some traits which are desirable in traders and some which are not . this is old hat , we have all been through this chat already.


>>So I need a scientific/engineering approach to steer me in the right direction, which I gained through my >>work. Someone with strong logic would probably need to develop their creativity and understanding of >>human nature, etc


A long winded way of saying science per se will not make you win in the markets , which if so I have not problem with.


>>bomb defuser)" or trader or brain surgeon or kamikaze pilot takes a lot of guts as well as good nerves.

so a bomb defuser or kamikaze pilot has the same scientific knowledge as a doctor who is a MD ?

LOL , that's great.

guts is good on the battlefield but not in the markets , I guarantee you that

>>Russians are often regarded as top mathematicians so I guess your source is telling you the truth.

so we are to believe that this bomb defuser has a 1st in maths ? LOL.


>>Doing your DD short/long term as well as setting up your targets and stick to them takes some good >nerves. Today everybody is told to play the market with the stop/loss-function you have in many trading >applications. MM´s are aware of that and the sure take advantage of it. A scared Trader will never be a >>good trader. (own experience)


another name for this is called gambling . good luck to you coz you will surely need it.

Contrary to popular belief - scared money is better than brave money , scared lives to fight another day whereas brave money has only 2 outcomes each bet , win or die , sooner or later , it will catch up to you - DIE , gambling !

And now tell me that you have had great success using this approach coz I have a stock reply for you .

 

[henry766]

you are indeed wise , very wise and rather long winded!!

 

[china white]

I'm not sure any profession can help you to trade and I'd go as far as to say that trading is so foreign that any job will only serve as a hinderance to learning it(with the possible exception of fruit and veg stalls ). Most jobs can be disected into "skills" that would be useful or helpful but we've all worked with people doing the same job as us and everyone of them has different personallities(or none) or skills.

It seems to me that irrespective of the job you do its how you approach it, your ability to see the problem and your discipline that will ultimately lead to sucess.

Coming from a technical background i immediately found my self trying to develop the worlds greatest indicators, systems by leveraging my current skills... this didn't work and i've had to develop new skills(still developing new skills.) It strikes me that if I'd known how difficult it would have been or how much my head would hurt I might have skipped it.

Now as for jobs that will attract traders I'm convinced that's real.

Excellent post mate. Several thoughts here:

1) aspiration? very important. however the way fossils interview new chaps back on the floor goes like this: "U demonstrated to me u really want to be a trader. Luvly. So does my 12 yrs old niece. Now tell me why I shud hire u ahead of her". U c my point? The true line in the sand, as u rightly pointed out, is DISCIPLINE.

2) One of the best cash traders I have seen was at some point of his life a pimp in Romania. One of the worst traders I hv seen was a PhD in Math who created 10,000 brilliant volatility surfaces and had to cover for a trader (cockney school drop-out btw) who went off on a honeymoon with his missus for a couple of weeks. 10 trading sessions, 1.25 mln quid down. I am not generalising here, but when I am asked to invest in PhDs making trading decisions for me I run

3) I myself come from a strong technical background (Monte Carlo simulations of secondary emissions coming from solar flares, for your amusement), and I know how detrimental it is in trading. Plus I know all the b*llocking ppl with such a background get on the floor - unless they prove themselves. My point here is - don't assume that if u know how to derive Black-Sholes formula u'll cream off as a trader. IT IS YOUR GUTS AND DISCIPLINE that will let u make it, nothing else. And let me ask u - where do ppl usually develop GUTS? In a classroom or on the street? The problem with the street boys though is that they often lack DISCIPLINE

 

[china white]

2 key ingredients

sorry for posting twice in a row here.....

I am not surprised at all mate. He had to have loads of GUTS and loads of DISCIPLINE as a bomb diffuser - 2 main ingredients to be a successful trader....

I am good Friends with a fine trader (40 yrs experience and 20 yrs full-time). I am fortunate enough to have him in my investor's club. He knows a man that moved from old Russia to America year's ago; not knowing a thing about Capitalism and learned how to trade while here. His occupation in Russia was a top level bomb defuser. My friend swears that his exceptional success at trading (10,000 shares at a time) was due partly by his job (bomb defuser). Interesting, to say the least.

d-

 

[TheBramble]

Which (Guts & Discipline) ties back quite neatly to comments made a few posts back about how military types might do.

While the gung-ho Marine approach may not be the best analogy (no disrespect to this mob BTW - they do have a part to play) the discipline honed by many years high-quality drilling and instruction AND the learnt ability to operate efficiently and without hesitation under circumstances where your personal survival are at stake do produce a certain 'profile'.

I remember your mention of 'a couple of Polish lads (off duty soldiers)' who had a certain manner about them...(cold, impersonal, willing to do whatever was necessary)

The point I am leading to is that these 'qualities' and not necessarily inherent - they can (and must) be learnt. We're getting awfully close to areas we probably don't want to be getting to so I'll leave it there.

 

[wisestguy]

guts & discipline don't really come together in trading . it's easy to have guts in the market , you just do the simple thing , follow whatever whim you have on the day and just bet the whole lot . then hope and pray . easy , rubbish traders do it all the time ,like cockney ( or not so ) Nick Leeson . says it all really.

 

[TheBramble]

Don't think so WG. Guts is doing something which goes 'against the grain' - almost the opposite of a whim.

I used to have a 'whim of iron' so I know what I'm talking about on that score.

If by guts you mean blind stupidity or unreasoned hopes and expectations or untested expectation of probability and skewed assimilation of historical likelihoods - I'd agree. But I've never heard the word used in that context before.

 

[wisestguy]

>>Don't think so WG. Guts is doing something which goes 'against the grain' - almost the opposite of a >>whim.

you defined guts as the ability to act without hesitation where survival is at stake.
I fail to see how that is directly benificial to trading.

guts in a soldier's sense IS usually defined as gung ho , charge 1st , then ask questions . a soldier would not be much use otherwise.

testament to this are countless battles that have been fought this way through the ages.

Though it is a good thing to think independently in the market , this does not always mean against the grain , sometimes going with the grain is equally desirable.

 

[china white]

chaps let me clarify what i mean.

to me a trading decision is 3-fold:

1) evaluation of your odds. this is actually the only place where math, tech skills etc...... MAY be beneficial. I personally trade on odds 75/25 in my favour or better - mostly derived from my experience, but sometimes from such dishonourable sources as old mate's tip....

2) GUTS - by which i mean once u determined your odds are 75/25 or better u go for it instead of debating for hours what it means from mathematical perspective as any normal PhD wud do

3) DISCIPLINE - once u r trading u establish your level of pain - which varies across trades and traders - and if the market b*tch decides to turn her back at u, u exit EXACTLY where u planned. NO whining, NO moaning, NO hoping she'll turn back to break u even a couple of ticks further against u.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enuff earlier.

 

[henry766]

you can get pills for a sagging "whim of iron " bramble!!