Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

This is a discussion on Just HOW do you make money in the markets? within the Trading Systems forums, part of the Methods category; The reason the internet gets a hard time for trading advice is this: The vast majority of private retail traders ...

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Old Jan 6, 2010, 11:45am   #46
Joined Feb 2008
Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

The reason the internet gets a hard time for trading advice is this:

The vast majority of private retail traders who make money are using systems they have developed (maybe from freely publicly available systems). This will include some form of testing/learning, whether it's backtesting, paper testing, or learning from months/years of trading. In any case, they will have paid a lot of attention to why trades win and why trades lose, risk/reward and performance characteristics of their system. They will almost all have learnt through experience why you can't just throw indicators together, why you can't just reverse a losing system. They will probably have an intuitive feel for performance characteristics when developing or refining sytems. And of course their discipline is good, and has probably been enhanced by the hours of effort and methodical approach they have taken.

So, along comes a new trader who wants to make money. He's straight on the web. He may not even have read a single book yet. I mean, that's effort right? 90% of important newbie questions on here are answered in just one decent trading book. He wants to know whether system x costing 250 quid will make him money or not. FFS, do you realise how stupid that sounds? Even system X's website doesn't claim it makes money in the small print at the bottom.

So let's say he dumps system x, or didn't go for it. The next step, post on here for a good free system. Get recommended to read a couple of 900 page threads. Get to page 40, decide you probably know how to trade that method. Try trading it. Either have success for a week, and decide that this trading lark is easy, or fail with it, for a variety of reasons, and go back to the web. Read a few more pages. Repeat for a few months.

By now, he reckons he's quite experienced. He can throw indicators together like an expert. He can search the web and books looking for more complex indicators. Maybe with a Japanese name, or something. Or he may have become a purist, and decided that price action and volume is all there is. So he trades that.

In any case, a small number of you will have made money for six months. You've only been lucky. Sorry.

In all cases, you haven't made a stab at what I described in the first paragraph, so the internet has slowed you down considerably, and in fact, you may carry on for years searching for the holy grail of making free money for little effort.

I believe all of that is a fact. If you disagree with it, please post why.

Since we now have to post our credentials on this list, I've spent the last eight months full time developing and backtesting, with almost no trading. So I have no recent record to speak of. As for before that, well, how do you think I know the newbie story so well?
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 12:51pm   #47
Joined Nov 2009
Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

Fair point, ceydababy. No, in fact lots of fair points. There IS a lot of cr*p info out there on the net, and no doubt here too, like any site. I guess when I said that I believe that there IS help available too, some of the things Xeno mentions in the post above were what I had in mind.

For example, how to test a system and why it's a good idea, the amount of sheer hard work and hours of learning it is going to take, what scams to look out for, how important it is not to just throw real money at trading and expect to come up rich in six months, which books may be worth a read, some common mistakes to avoid, the importance of risk-management/money-management, etc...things that to an experienced trader are ingrained, but for a newbie like me can be a real eye-opener.

But if I implied by my earlier post that that means "believing all you read" "finding the grail" or that "this site (or any other!), will make someone a good trader in just 8 weeks or so", then my outgoing BS filter obviously wasn't working too good either! *G*

regards
Tess
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 1:15pm   #48
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Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitlink View Post
If I was, truly, honest with myself I would say that the main reason for posting on here is to communicate in English while I am at the computer. I'm sure that I get more good information at the same time and I hope that I have been able to give some.
and if I was being truly honest, I'd admit that the main reason I come here is as a way of distracting myself so I don't get tempted to fiddle around with my open positions!
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 4:28pm   #49
Joined Nov 2008
Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

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Originally Posted by Paul71 View Post
This post is how i imagine things to be, great post. Really helpful people are usually rubbish at anything, lol. At the moment i'm snowed in, i can't get out of my council flat, so it's cheap cider and cat food for me all day whilst 'scalping' the eur/dol. Lulz.
There's always someone 'larging' it isn't there? I'll bet it's that Cesar stuff, you flash tw@t...
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 4:35pm   #50
 
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Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

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Originally Posted by dimsdaletraders View Post
and if I was being truly honest, I'd admit that the main reason I come here is as a way of distracting myself so I don't get tempted to fiddle around with my open positions!
Sitting on your hands doing nothing is also a positive decision
The great thing is that you resist the urge to trade unless your methods signal you to do so.
Over-trading = suicide trading
Richard
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 4:41pm   #51
 
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Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

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Originally Posted by Black Swan View Post
There's always someone 'larging' it isn't there? I'll bet it's that Cesar stuff, you flash tw@t...
Do Cesar make cat food ?
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 4:47pm   #52
Joined Nov 2008
Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

I'd just add a couple of things; there isn't a day I come here that I don't learn something trading related even remotely related, it might be about the human nature of trading/or those wanting to trade, it doesn't have to be trading related 'scales off eyes' eureka moments...

Secondly there appears to be a prescribed view of what this and or other forums offer up, quite frankly who cares, it is what it is; a suite of trading related forums, surely only the terminally naive would expect to get life changing advice from strangers off the web?

As for the OP and the original question..er.. dyor and figure it out yerself...
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 5:08pm   #53
Joined Feb 2007
Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

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Originally Posted by Black Swan View Post
There's always someone 'larging' it isn't there? I'll bet it's that Cesar stuff, you flash tw@t...

As Zupcon has already pointed out that's dog food But what is funny, the dog on the front of the Cesar tin looks like gamma, who is also a forum guide.
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 5:36pm   #54
Joined Aug 2003
Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

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As Zupcon has already pointed out that's dog food But what is funny, the dog on the front of the Cesar tin looks like gamma, who is also a forum guide.
Damn! the secret 's out
Can't pretend to be a great trader anymore now that the source of my income is public knowledge.
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 5:51pm   #55
Joined Mar 2007
Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

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Originally Posted by Highlander1 View Post
Hello,
I'm trying to figure out which route to go to take a shot at making consistent money trading. I've been reading a lot of these posts here, and basically it seems like there are quite a few opinions on how NOT to make money.

Thanks in advance for your input!
I am making money from trading.I can post live account statements of trading profits,the brownies can't.

All these tenderfoot time wasters are on my ignore .The only free advice opinion you will get is how to lose your money, and give it to friends of the girls seeking a tenderfoot badge.

These brownies aren't making money from trading,but from selling the Nasem taleb EAS and scamming noobs .Noobster Nasem is now hinting at balooney fib and his mum is hinting at maddoff educationale



period.
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 6:21pm   #56
Joined Feb 2007
Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

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Originally Posted by gamma View Post
Damn! the secret 's out
Can't pretend to be a great trader anymore now that the source of my income is public knowledge.

Where's the avatar gone, you lovely little westhighland terrier you?
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 6:48pm   #57
Joined Jan 2009
Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

One bit of advice, in my experience, can help successful trading:

Don't trade with capital that you can't afford to lose. If you are trading in order to put bread on the table and pay the rent, you are quite likely doomed to failure - unless you have balls of absolute steel of course.
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Old Jan 6, 2010, 6:54pm   #58
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Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

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Originally Posted by Jock Strap View Post
One bit of advice, in my experience, can help successful trading:

Don't trade with capital that you can't afford to lose. If you are trading in order to put bread on the table and pay the rent, you are quite likely doomed to failure - unless you have balls of absolute steel of course.

I look at it differently nowadays, borrow on your credit cards ,house loans,remortgage and go for it.


but novices should not follow me.
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Old Jan 7, 2010, 11:53am   #59
 
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Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

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Originally Posted by oildaytrader View Post
I look at it differently nowadays, borrow on your credit cards ,house loans,remortgage and go for it.


but novices should not follow me.
I think I get what your point is here!

When I started trading I traded with the only money I had. As a full time student I plowed my loan into my trading account -- it really wad money that I couldn't afford to lose. This forced me to be very careful with my trading. I quickly learned to cut my losses, though I still have trouble letting my winners run.

I'm fairly sure that if I had begun trading with money I could afford to lose I would have blown up more times than I currently have!

I'm sure it was quite a stupid decision, but there is no lesson like losing! If you make sure you don't make the same mistake twice -- it's a bit like compounding your experiences -- you will improve every day.
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Old Jan 7, 2010, 11:59am   #60
Joined Mar 2007
Re: Just HOW do you make money in the markets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock Strap View Post
One bit of advice, in my experience, can help successful trading:

Don't trade with capital that you can't afford to lose. If you are trading in order to put bread on the table and pay the rent, you are quite likely doomed to failure - unless you have balls of absolute steel of course.
The comment should have been "unless you have a method/system , proven and tested on real accounts OVER MANY YEARS ON MANY INSTRUMENTS , a method with a far superior edge"

O D T
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