How Do DayTraders Make Money in the Futures Market?

timsk, did I miss something? Who is Lee? He/She was mentioned as a successful student of Stuart's. Can we get some background on Lee and get him or her posting on here?
Lee is 'Pitbull' here on T2W. Take a look at his review on page 9 of this thread that I referenced in my earlier post. As regards to him posting, I expect he's too busy making those 100 point a day profits to want to get involved in this debate. He is both an experienced trader and a long standing member of T2W, therefore his credibility rating is about as good as it gets, IMO. I've 'known' him on here and on another forum for a long time and respect him as someone who knows what he's talking about. Then again, I doubt you'll have to hunt for very long before you find someone - or perhaps lots of people - who think that both Lee and I talk complete twaddle and know sweet FA about sweet FA! As is the way on forums like this, you believe what you want to believe and disregard the rest.
Tim.
 
Okay, I wish Lee luck. He is going to need it

Lee doesn't need any luck...he studies and applies the One Minute Methodology and makes HIS OWN luck....with the requisite British stiff upper lip, of course. Lee has a good analytical eye and doesn't bring emotion into the picture, which is excellent advice to everyone!

Stuart K.
 
...isn't it amazing that VTROPP22b just can't accept that someone can take the ball, run with it and then succeed...and be content about it? VTROPP22b definitely has an agenda and won't let go no matter what facts fly in his face...and we are noticing he hasn't taken back the smear of AussiePerson either...he's had plenty of time to contact him directly or the Mods.

Looks like one of my newbies has his Tradestation account funded so I will be working with him next week on his live trades hopefully. He nailed the bottom today (via his skype IM entry while I was away). Another newbie aced his Module II, will be progressing thru the videos for the rest of the week and I'll be working with him on taking Kindergarten Trades & installing Tradestation in the coming weeks.

Stuart K.
 
This has been a lively debate! Welll, I am still using Stuart's method and raking in the points every week. Some days the Dow conforms wonderfully, like yesterday after a pretty choppy morning, some days it doesn't. You can't expect to get monster trades every day, but yesterday was an exception and I only traded the morning.

I think people get frustrated with it as they are trying to pick the exact tops and bottoms, R1 and S1. Sometimes you can get them but may take a few goes. When do you short a double top?, after uptrend ends, whats the safest entry? an RDOWN. When do you buy a double bottom? after downtrend ends, whats the safest entry? a URUP. What should all you short entries be? a H&S, what should all you long entries be? a RHS.

I find the best reversals happen on the hard numbers, 8100,8150,8200. Easy stuff!

I have added a couple of larger timeframes to get a bigger picture of the overbought/oversold situation for a likely larger reversal and the art part to the method is price action. Why try and buy a double bottom in a downtrend when price is still falling?? Newbie mistake! So when a URUP happens 15mins to the dot, does it hold the low keltner or keep falling? This is what you need to watch.

Chart from yesterday to show you how it works.
 

Attachments

  • 080709AM.png
    080709AM.png
    112.1 KB · Views: 361
What was yesterdays trade? Talking Dow cash, 8088 to 8178, 90 points, were gapping up 50 odd points, what Dow behaviour has just occurred on the futures, 8190, what chart pattern has just occurred, a H&S...so we assume YT is finished at the open.
 
This has been a lively debate! Welll, I am still using Stuart's method and raking in the points every week. Some days the Dow conforms wonderfully, like yesterday after a pretty choppy morning, some days it doesn't. You can't expect to get monster trades every day, but yesterday was an exception and I only traded the morning.

I think people get frustrated with it as they are trying to pick the exact tops and bottoms, R1 and S1. Sometimes you can get them but may take a few goes. When do you short a double top?, after uptrend ends, whats the safest entry? an RDOWN. When do you buy a double bottom? after downtrend ends, whats the safest entry? a URUP. What should all you short entries be? a H&S, what should all you long entries be? a RHS.

I find the best reversals happen on the hard numbers, 8100,8150,8200. Easy stuff!

I have added a couple of larger timeframes to get a bigger picture of the overbought/oversold situation for a likely larger reversal and the art part to the method is price action. Why try and buy a double bottom in a downtrend when price is still falling?? Newbie mistake! So when a URUP happens 15mins to the dot, does it hold the low keltner or keep falling? This is what you need to watch.

Chart from yesterday to show you how it works.

Lee - out of interest - can you tell us....

How many of those trades did you take.
What was your entry price, stop loss & exit price ?

Obviously, the anti-argument here is that it's retrospective. So - what were your entry points & risk at that point of entry ?
 
Where the arrows are and stop at the highs and lows, risk about 10 -20 ticks
 
Where the arrows are and stop at the highs and lows, risk about 10 -20 ticks

How abt posting up the TS chart of the YM with the actual trades on it ? :cheesy:

This will, after all, shut a lot of people up.

Come on... purleeeeeeeeze....
 
How do day traders make money.....very simply, by buying low and selling higher, and selling high and buying lower, not difficult really, just the trader, armed with a mulititude of everybody's else opinions making it difficult really, I suppose. Do it yourself, sod everybody elses view is all I can say, what works for one, doesn't for another etc.
 
The Mechanicals are long from yesterday's Dow Cash 8101...look for the lows today to hold above that, then take out the morning high (the open) later today. Whether that happens or not, that's the strategy you have using the Methodology this morning. ...as things progress, you keep an open mind and re-evaluate as needed, based on what time of the day it is and what untouched Institutional Stops are left from today and yesterday.

Great calls Lee!

Stuart K.
 
How do day traders make money.....very simply, by buying low and selling higher, and selling high and buying lower, not difficult really, just the trader, armed with a mulititude of everybody's else opinions making it difficult really, I suppose. Do it yourself, sod everybody elses view is all I can say, what works for one, doesn't for another etc.

...morning appt is running late, so I have some time...

The Dow Jones is controlled by mechanical trading systems, imo. The reversal points of the Dow are inviolate, as set by the Dow Cash (not the futures, except in the overnight session). I teach to always trade WITH the Mechanicals, anything else is a 'counter trend' trade..which is ok, just don't enter and walk away from the market, you're profit objective is likely to be swiftly hit then a reversal against your original trade entry will be in the cards and you shall be stopped out.

The Dow moves at TWO definite time/price speeds - students are taught how to read that - based on the 'speed' the market will only move 'x' points in 'x' minutes, so when you see a mechanical overbought or oversold scenario you take the opposite direction (trading the likely reversal) with a risk of about 6 to 12 ticks max (rarely that large).

The e-mini's were created with new technology (imo) and set up as a profit center for the Mechanical Trading Systems and the brokers as cash cows. No matter what the size of the market at any given time, the emini Mechanicals will automatically and instantly adjust their trading size to handle it -- this is the major difference between the emini index futures and the open outcry for the S&P, etc -- liquidity is rigid in the outcry biz model. As long as you trade a recognized mechanical trading system Institutional Stop, you can enter a 50 or 100 lot via limit and get a great fill. If you are entering at a "non-Institutional Stop" then you're likely to get a bunch of slippage. [you can verify this easily within Tradestation by adjusting your time & sales window lot size and watch when the big stops are hit...excellent fills with sizes > 30 lots all day long, every day]

This type of trading runs counter to many 'myths', 'conventional wisdom', and Linus security blankets that have been worshiped for years, so it is unpopular and rattles some cages. I don't freaking care. Somebody with a disciplined, objective trading style (like Lee) can nail many likely low risk reversal points almost every day.

The Methodology breaks down a little when the market is in a 40 point trading range for hours..in that case you move your timeframe out to 'x' minutes/hours based on the time of day and look for the "codes" be to be hit or ignored or violated..that DOES take some experience..however, futures traders DON'T make money in small trading range markets, so this does not happen frequently..usually a mid-day announcement is imminent and the Mechanicals are locked in place waiting for their move once the announcement comes out....so when this happens, you just take each overbought and each oversold and get out at the first or second profit objective...otherwise the Dow is a speedy PT Boat and "trends" 200 to 300 points every single day (intraday, counting the overnight session after 6 am ET).

The DayRaider Upgrade nails a lot of the trading ranges at DR 2.2 did not, matter of fact I'd say EVERY trading range reversal that DR 2.2 did not. You'll see the proof of the pudding via daily statements in the near future.

To each his own, that's fine, no problem there.

The Mechanical Day Trader
 
as both a momentum trader and a reversal trader, principally using pivot points to either fade or jump on momentum, I'd have to partially disagree with your post. It's very short-sighted only to focus on reversals, and I humbly submit it is one of the key factors in newbies failure rates. There's something, after all, to be said for buying strength and selling weakness

that said, reversals are still a great way to profit, although since many people use pivot points-they work best!
 
Originally Posted by rathcoole_exile View Post
as both a momentum trader and a reversal trader, principally using pivot points to either fade or jump on momentum, I'd have to partially disagree with your post. It's very short-sighted only to focus on reversals, and I humbly submit it is one of the key factors in newbies failure rates. There's something, after all, to be said for buying strength and selling weakness



...please quantify this with an actual example, particularly mention how the trade entry and exit are "objective" and not emotionally based and what the risk/reward is also. I guess a "momentum trader" is going with the trend? Ok, well I quantify that as LTE#2 (LTE#1 occurs near the lowest low, before the uptrend starts, for example) or STE2 (long entry #2, short entry #2)...as the trend continues you can #3, #4, etc...each additional entry during the trend must be individually profitable and have a low risk for instance.

Since we're daytrading, we want to leverage our money to the max and use brokers that feature low daytrading margin. What is the "return on daytraders margin" on a "momentum" trade? For example, a typical crappy trading range trade in the One Minute Methodology should net about 25 ticks.

here's a hypothetical example with a broker that offers $500 daytrading margin:


($500 daytraders margin, risk $40). So 25 x $5 = $125
That equals to a profit of 25% of daytraders margin.
Assume you have 3 of these trades, 2 winners, 1 loser
Gross Profit $250 - $40 (loss) = $210 / $500 margin = 42% return on daytraders margin for 3 crummy trading range trades (there are about 12 to 18 reversal trades every day in the MIni Dow).

Conventional math, require a 2:1 margin (still $500 daytraders margin at the broker) . $210 / $1,000 = 21% profit before commissions, slippage.

Now, let's add 2 trending trades, one 45 points profit, another 90 points profit and a loss of 12 points (used a big stop on a short).

45 x $5 = $225 (over 50% return on daytraders margin)
90 x $5 = $450 (90% return on daytraders margin)
12 x $5 loss = <$60>
3 prev trades = $210
----------------------------
Daily P&L $825 / 165% return on daytraders margin of $500
Daily P&L $825 / 80%+ return on 'double' of daytraders margin

Counting the Globex trade that goes into the Dow Open, there's about 18 trades; if you catch 6 or 12 of them (just staying in for the other side of the trading range or an obvious trending trade) using a reversal methodology with objective rules + using the Dow Behaviors [slightly subjective] a daily P & L for a full time trader is do-able every single day. If somebody only hits 50% of that a day, along with maybe a 100% hit once a week, they still are eating steak instead of hot dogs.

Let's see them momentum trades please, the real numbers and risk/reward and how many times these occur (average) per 5 trading days (a week).

I'm all Ross Perot Ears...:innocent:

The Mechanical Day Trader
===========================
 
Originally Posted by rathcoole_exile View Post
as both a momentum trader and a reversal trader, principally using pivot points to either fade or jump on momentum, I'd have to partially disagree with your post. It's very short-sighted only to focus on reversals, and I humbly submit it is one of the key factors in newbies failure rates. There's something, after all, to be said for buying strength and selling weakness



...please quantify this with an actual example, particularly mention how the trade entry and exit are "objective" and not emotionally based and what the risk/reward is also. I guess a "momentum trader" is going with the trend? Ok, well I quantify that as LTE#2 (LTE#1 occurs near the lowest low, before the uptrend starts, for example) or STE2 (long entry #2, short entry #2)...as the trend continues you can #3, #4, etc...each additional entry during the trend must be individually profitable and have a low risk for instance.

Since we're daytrading, we want to leverage our money to the max and use brokers that feature low daytrading margin. What is the "return on daytraders margin" on a "momentum" trade? For example, a typical crappy trading range trade in the One Minute Methodology should net about 25 ticks.

here's a hypothetical example with a broker that offers $500 daytrading margin:


($500 daytraders margin, risk $40). So 25 x $5 = $125
That equals to a profit of 25% of daytraders margin.
Assume you have 3 of these trades, 2 winners, 1 loser
Gross Profit $250 - $40 (loss) = $210 / $500 margin = 42% return on daytraders margin for 3 crummy trading range trades (there are about 12 to 18 reversal trades every day in the MIni Dow).

Conventional math, require a 2:1 margin (still $500 daytraders margin at the broker) . $210 / $1,000 = 21% profit before commissions, slippage.

Now, let's add 2 trending trades, one 45 points profit, another 90 points profit and a loss of 12 points (used a big stop on a short).

45 x $5 = $225 (over 50% return on daytraders margin)
90 x $5 = $450 (90% return on daytraders margin)
12 x $5 loss = <$60>
3 prev trades = $210
----------------------------
Daily P&L $825 / 165% return on daytraders margin of $500
Daily P&L $825 / 80%+ return on 'double' of daytraders margin

Counting the Globex trade that goes into the Dow Open, there's about 18 trades; if you catch 6 or 12 of them (just staying in for the other side of the trading range or an obvious trending trade) using a reversal methodology with objective rules + using the Dow Behaviors [slightly subjective] a daily P & L for a full time trader is do-able every single day. If somebody only hits 50% of that a day, along with maybe a 100% hit once a week, they still are eating steak instead of hot dogs.

Let's see them momentum trades please, the real numbers and risk/reward and how many times these occur (average) per 5 trading days (a week).

I'm all Ross Perot Ears...:innocent:

The Mechanical Day Trader
===========================

Damn....I thought he was all gaseous and all that but he does make valid points, PitBull's chart does infact throw out patterns that are usually symmetrical, at least on that one.

But isn't this pattern recognition taken to new heights, bloody hell if you are saying these patterns are relentlessly symmetrical AND recurring with such clarity AND that your method has been able to convert them into strict mechanical signals then hats off to you....

Shouldn't you be able to add entry/exit paint bars when such conditions coincide as well for idiots like (well like me....for example) that can't recognize patterns half the time....?
 
ummm...no....Reality trumps mechanical setups unfortunately. For instance, you can use a MACD and crossover of moving averages...in a bull market the buy entries will be honored, in a bear market the buy entries would frequently be stopped out.

My Methodology is predicated on basically 3 different mechanical systems control the daily highs and lows of the Mini Dow. Remember the Dow climbing steadily higher and higher a few weeks ago until one day at the open it has pivoted downward? The "x" day Mechanical System had run back to back buy programs until the very end. A new "x" day Mechanical System (same time period) was then short from the close of the previous day (the 'x' day highest high). There are two other Mechanical Systems of shorter time periods that set most reversals. YT takes the overnight position and carries it into the next morning (every single day this method works, right to within about ten points accuracy every single day of every week of every year).

Europe sets the Globex high and Globex low before the Dow opens at 9:30 ET. There's a reversal of the Europe position when New York wakes up, this trade lasts about 60 to 120 minutes to about the 9:30 open. There's a timed reversal - this occurs between 'x' and 'y' every single day. This reversal then ends either at 'a', 'b' or 'c' time periods give or take a few minutes. These two trades move about 'x' points then pause....if both of these trades are in the same direction (a trend), then you just double the length and predict when the mechanical reversal setup will occur....if it does not occur at time 'a', then you move your projection up to 'b' time period..if a legal setup occurs around that time, check the 3 main Dow Behaviors..

if you have all 3, then it is a 100% winning trade; if you have 2 Dow Behaviors, then you have a 80% chance the entire movement has occurred and this is the reversal...if you have only ONE Dow Behavior, scale out of your position either 33% or 50% and hang in there for some more action in the same direction.

If the market exhibits a trading range after the timed reversal has expired, patience is key ..and some experience...after about 6 or 8 weeks Lee was nailing most of the tougher trading range tricks. The key is to stick with the "4 mechanical trades" in Module I & II...this is your blueprint for daytrading low risk reversals the rest of your life...you will never have to go to another seminar, buy another book or ask someone how they daytrade..you can break down low risk trending and trading range positions over and over...

You should be able to figure out 5.5 hours of a 6.5 hour trading day after a month or so of real time analysis...in the meantime you can understand more than half of the intraday chart ...Newbies just take the Kindergarten Trades which are 100% mechanical and objective...yes you can get stopped out but if you stick to the KT + 2 Dow Behaviors you'll have lots of wins, and few losses.

Most people are not that patient..they want the "black box secret code book to one million dollars in 90 days" and don't want to sit there and use their brain for a week or two...after a couple weeks of paper trading the One Minute Methodology you should be able to consistently nail 50+ points every day and get a good 100-150 point trend once a week also. Just be patient.

I've had several people nail KT's the first day after they got their Module I chart up and running, patience, practice and having an open mind are key. Slam Dunk isntant daytrading exists somewhere else, not here.

Stuart K.
 
Top