The Market Matrix

This is a discussion on The Market Matrix within the Trading Systems forums, part of the Methods category; Well, I dunno. I came to this thread to have a look at the consensus regarding MM as Tom Hougaard ...

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Old Jun 2, 2008, 7:32pm   #463
GMP
Joined Sep 2007
Well, I dunno. I came to this thread to have a look at the consensus regarding MM as Tom Hougaard is selling a new book version this week ("only folks!") for £525. Big reduction on the CDs and I respect Tom H's approach to TA, but I bought the Delta book a couple of years back and that boils down to a subjective approach, despite all the claims. Ditto Elliott waves - easy to apply in retrospect but curiously difficult to apply to the future with any regular accuracy.
It makes me wonder if it's the same with MM, but I haven't found much in this thread to persuade me either way. I don't doubt that it can work for some folk but how much can you put down to the method and how much to their personal implementation of it? Astrology works for some folk but that doesn't make it a science.
I guess if I could spare £500 I'd buy it out of curiousity... but I can't at the mo', so there's an end to it!
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Old Jun 14, 2008, 5:31pm   #464
 
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New Market Matrix Book
The Market Matrix By Steve Copan

Seeming I have the book, I thought that I will put a note up here for anyone who may be confused.

This book indeed is very different in comparison to the CDs. The REAL difference is the fact that there is no mention of DELTA at all in the book, and it is purely based on the Market Matrix. Now, this sentence alone may confuse quite a lot of you, but to put in simple terms having studied both DELTA and MARKET MATRIX, I can assure you that the two are very different. In simple terms, DELTA is like the unfinished work of what MARKET MATRIX (MM) is. To give an example, the time cycles that DELTA uses is in fact wrong, and this is the main reason as to why so many people are not able to accurately predict the high and low of any market. MM in comparison has corrected those mistakes, and the new book explains this in a lot of detail.

The real difference is that there was a lot of information that seems to have been missed out in the CDs, but this time within the book itself Steve Copan has definitely filled those gaps, and has allowed a new MM trader to quickly get to grasp with the quite complex knowledge. Not only that, it seems as though there is a full supportive nature that never existed before, starting from the book, to the monthly Matrix newsletter, to the Dynamic Trader software with Matrix Cycle feature added on to the software and finally a member's forum. Also what's quite a beauty is that Steve Copan has also added in a trading method to trade the MM in any market. If there was all this when I started with MM, I probably would have grasp the material a lot faster.

Fortunately, this time round, the book is a lot cheaper than the CDs ever were. Considering the book has more info than the CDs ever did, in some ways I wish I just waited for the book. With my experience so far, I have not come across a more complete system where providing you REALLY understand MM, it is by far the easiest way to make money in any market.

Keep in mind that MM does take a while to get to grasp with, and does take a lot of work to understand it. It is not something that you will understand overnight and probably take most people a year to REALLY understand MM. Also without the DT software, you will spend 80% of your time calculating when that is precisely what DT software will do for you in an instance. Personally, without the Matrix Cycles add-on in DT software, I think it will be near impossible to implement MM properly. However, what I have certainly experienced and found using MM for a couple of years is that if you REALLY understand MM, making money is just inevitable.

Hope this helps.

CJ.

Last edited by cjlee623; Jun 14, 2008 at 6:14pm.
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Old Jun 14, 2008, 7:46pm   #465
 
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from the MM website
"... The Foundations the
Market Matrix is built upon the Natural Time cycles of the planets
in our solar system that where created with the formation of the
universe, combined with simple mathematics and natural law that has
been around since Time began. ...." [holds head in hands and gently nods "no" icon]

form your post
" To give an example, the time cycles that DELTA uses is in fact wrong, and this is the main reason as to why so many people are not able to accurately predict the high and low of any market."

I spent an incredible amount of time trying to work out why the Delta points varied around, and tried to make excuses for the early arrival and late arrival of points, to no avail. Now, possibly, those Delta points were wrong to begin with. Believe me, I was not
averse to working into the early hours to get Delta to work.

Please understand that I am being analytical here, not cynical. The questions I ask should be seen as critical points, not rubbishing the product. (I suspect you would ask the same questions if you were contemplating buying the book.)

01: Can we be certain that the MM points themselves do not come with fudge-factor variables?
02: Did the original MM also believe that Delta was wrong, or is this a revelation for the new MM?
03: How complex is MM given that the new book is 144 pages of A4 with 89 full-colour charts? even if the charts were half-page pictures, thats about 45 pages of pictures. Thats only approx 100 pages of text. I reckon most of us could read that in 1 day, and get to grips with the concepts in a weekend. We're not stupid here. Most are technically minded, very numerate, and with better than average critical faculties. I am not counting the absolute newbies. A year to make work?!
04: ( tongue-in-cheek] given that Pluto is no longer a planet, will this affect the cycles count?
05: How discretionary is it? Would the MM analysis lead everyone to conclude identical points?
06: Your posts refer to Dynamic Trader and the MM add-on. But arent the add-ons a separate expense? If so, how much more?

A couple of forward calls would be useful. No-one would actually trade them, so no secrets are being unveiled.

If the book was around a hundred quid, I would buy it just to appease my curiosity; but for £600 I run the risk of being disappointed.

nevertheless, good luck with it.
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Old Jun 14, 2008, 9:46pm   #466
 
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Hi,

Just to be clear, the answer to your questions are just my own opinion.

From my understanding, and a combination of what I have heard within the community of MM traders (within the forum), I believe that when the original MM CDs were created, they were trying to pitch it to the DELTA community who were already familiar with the concepts, hence I believe they were using language that was common to them (i.e ITD, MTD, etc). However, I think what happened was that it created more confusion rather than clarity hence in the revised work in the form of the book, there is no mention of DELTA at all. From my experience and understanding, MM is very accurate and MM Time cycles are very accurate (i.e MC1-MC6). MM time cycles have no relevance with DELTA cycles apart from the fact that they share similar concepts, but the actual cycles themselves are different. To put it in simple terms, DELTA cycles are wrong.

I believe that the confusion of MM cycles and the mis-understanding that they were the same as DELTA time cycles is probably where people got confused from the CDs. You can clearly see these MM cycles when you purchase the Matrix Cycles add-on, as they are built within the software. This is why the DT software with the MM add-on is a necessity. Nothing in the book is new information, but finally the concepts of MM are much more clearly explained in comparison to before, and any missing information from the CDs filled within the book. Plus, in addition, this time round I believe that the MM team has put together a more complete package making it much easier for people to learn in comparison to before when I started.

I think what people miss is that there are no short-cuts with learning MM and no cheap way either. You need the book, the software, the MM add-on, the newsletter and the forum as a complete package to really learn MM properly. If you try and take short-cuts and cut any of them out, it will only delay your learning, which is certainly what I have experienced.

What seems really clear is that Steve Copan is not often one to expand on his words unnecessarily, and hence his manner in being concise and to the point often makes people over-look vital information and forget the MM rules. To give an example, I have heard and seen the MM CDs literally thousands of times each time understanding something new and realising that Steve Copan did mention things, but I just missed them. I think it's really easy to under-estimate MM and discard it quickly as something that doesn't seem to work and judge it quickly by the cover, but MM is not something that you can learn overnight or even in a month. It takes a while to digest the information properly, and you will know when you understand it properly, coz making money will just be inevitable after that. I have seen even the most competent of technical analyst to struggle with really understanding MM, however everyone is different. It will take some people less time and for some won't get it even with a lifetime hence my average of 1 year, plus it's just my own opinion and observation. You just won't know until you try it out and learn it, but the only thing I can assure is that MM works and is a complete system.

Lastly, providing that everyone understands MM properly, the solution that they come up with will be identical for that particular market in question. The best way in my opinion is to compare your solutions to that of the MM newsletter, and use it to confirm your understanding. I knew I understood it properly when I found my points coming in identically to the newsletter.

After coming to a point where I understand MM, I can now understand why Steve Copan charges what he charges, and to be honest I was a little annoyed that his new book is so much cheaper than the CDs, but I presume most people are too busy trying to create copies of MM and flog it illegally over the internet rather than spending the time to understand and implement MM.

Hope that helps.

CJ.
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Old Jun 15, 2008, 1:44am   #467
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjlee623 View Post
Hi,

Just to be clear, the answer to your questions are just my own opinion.

....
It never ceases to amaze me how many Newbies sign up to T2W and from their first post all they do is extol the virtues of a particular system/service/guru but claim to have no connection with the company.
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Old Jun 16, 2008, 10:50am   #468
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Originally Posted by cjlee623 View Post
New Market Matrix Book
Personally, without the Matrix Cycles add-on in DT software, I think it will be near impossible to implement MM properly. However, what I have certainly experienced and found using MM for a couple of years is that if you REALLY understand MM, making money is just inevitable.

CJ.
So I could spend £600 on a book but still have to lay out more on some software to do the maths for me, and some newsletters to doublecheck I got it right? If you "REALLY understand MM" why do you need software and newsletters?
Sorry to be cynical, but it's sounding more and more like the goose that laid the golden egg, (for its publishers!). I remember seeing a couple of sample MM newsletters, and even with them a couple of the predicted "turning points" in one issue were fudged or ignored in the next newsletter.
The more I learn about MM, the less I trust it as an objectively-applicable technique. I think the complexity is probably very convincing though. No doubt it works to an extent (Tom Hougaard is no fool and I know he extols it) and if I ever have the spare dosh I'll look into it out of curiousity, but I definitely get a whiff of snake oil about it.
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Old Jun 16, 2008, 11:21am   #469
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMP View Post
So I could spend £600 on a book but still have to lay out more on some software to do the maths for me, and some newsletters to doublecheck I got it right? If you "REALLY understand MM" why do you need software and newsletters?
Sorry to be cynical, but it's sounding more and more like the goose that laid the golden egg, (for its publishers!). I remember seeing a couple of sample MM newsletters, and even with them a couple of the predicted "turning points" in one issue were fudged or ignored in the next newsletter.
The more I learn about MM, the less I trust it as an objectively-applicable technique. I think the complexity is probably very convincing though. No doubt it works to an extent (Tom Hougaard is no fool and I know he extols it) and if I ever have the spare dosh I'll look into it out of curiousity, but I definitely get a whiff of snake oil about it.
sort of agree, but wouldnt put it as strongly as "snake oil". (or maybe I am just being polite.)

if there are cycles, the numbers must be definitive, like the Delta monthly stuff. (unequivocal full moons etc)

its about taking a general concept, and drilling down into detail.
take the "cycle" as a framework, then start adding detail bit by bit.
if the principle isnt obvious, then there must be considerable discretion involved.

I also got the newsletters; unfortunately, deleted mine after a while, as I was unconvinced.

I just cant accept that it takes years to learn. the backtesting process would take, at a slovenly pace, 2 weekends max, to get a feel of viability.
(see Hoggums thread on backtesting CCI or RSI cross-overs as example)

if the book was available for £100 or so, I would take a punt.

EDIT: not happy Monday for me; -31 on a EURUSD short; unhappy particularly as I should have bailed at -20.
__________________
# If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail - Abraham Maslow
# There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those that understand binary, and those that dont. -Anon
# Ed Seykotas Whipsaw Song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiE1V...Wlxk8&index=10
# Defeat is temporary. Giving up makes it permanent. Anon
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