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This is a discussion on my journal within the Trading Journals forums, part of the Reception category; This problem didn't happen because you mentioned it, but because this friend of mine keeps on expecting more, and sometimes ...

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Old Sep 15, 2009, 6:49am   #61
 
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Yamato started this thread This problem didn't happen because you mentioned it, but because this friend of mine keeps on expecting more, and sometimes even explicitly asking. Your idea sounds reasonable of course, but I don't think I'll go for it. Indeed, I want to make profits all by myself, without selling or sharing anything to others. In fact, in order to do this, one thing I should stop doing is talking to people outside this forum about my trading, because some are asking me to invest their money. There is just one person that I feel comfortable about sending my systems to, and even getting involved in a business relationship with: he's a programmer who helped me develop the systems for years (when I had troubles configuring tradestation for example). Without him, this wouldn't have happened. So I don't have any problems sharing my systems with him, whether it's advantageous or not. He doesn't seem very interested though. He saw them already, and said they look really complicated and that he can't figure out how they work (this is because he helped me at the start, and in the last few years he didn't know what I was doing). Also, somehow he's not interested in making money. It seems that he doesn't have many expenses and that he has more than enough money for his lifetime.

Last edited by Yamato; Sep 15, 2009 at 6:54am.
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Old Sep 15, 2009, 9:58am   #62
 
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Yamato started this thread I am here at the office, as usual, and I realize how much it's wearing me out: the colleague in front of me, on the phone, playing his radio all day long with disgusting music on it (loud electric guitar, no melody, like a washing machine), the managers relying on me for everything because almost everyone else is either on coffee breaks or talking on the phone... it's all wearing me out psychologically and physically.

For years I've put up with it by saying and thinking "in a year I'll have a million" but it never got close to happening - in fact every year I lost money, at the rate of a few thousand euros per year (for 12 years). Now that for about a year I've finally had the tools to make it happen, I've been ruining things by doing automated trading together with discretionary trading, in order to rush things and get out of the office quickly. The consequence has been that I actually kept myself from building up capital. I've kept myself from leaving the office by wanting to leave it too much, because my discretionary trading has deleted most of the profits from automated trading.

Now it's going to take a lot of patience, to put up with all the scumbags surrounding me, come to work every day, and not interfere with my systems due to my urge to rush things and try to increase capital with discretionary trading. I'll have to pretend or actually believe that "life is tough" and that I have to put up with it like ordinary people, at least for a while. Until today I had thought I was different and blessed. By thinking that, I've been screwing up things and treating money like monopoly money. Not just blowing it with my reckless discretionary trading, but also spending it on restaurants, treating everyone to lunches and dinners. I need to be serious about it. I need to feel the weight of every dollar - something I've never felt. I've never felt "poor" or that my survival was in danger. And this was partly good, because maybe I never would have started investing if I had felt the real weight of every dollar. I wouldn't have wanted to risk any money. But now that I've got the tools to increase my money, it would be great to gain some sense of money, and not feel that I'll always have enough of it, no matter what.

I've started doing something good and being serious about money, when I decided to spend from my trading account, and not touch the account where I get my salary. This way I know that for every restaurant I go to my dream of leaving the office gets further away.

Last edited by Yamato; Sep 15, 2009 at 10:05am.
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Old Sep 15, 2009, 6:50pm   #63
 
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Yamato started this thread Ok, regarding automated trading, discretionary trading and their relationship to psychology, I've finally found a way to put it all together.

1) Automated consists of univocal rules and in this sense psychology does not matter.

2) Discretionary by definition must have at least a part of "discretionary" decisions, which means choices made by intuition, instinct, improvisation. The importance of psychology will be proportional to how "discretionary" a discretionary method is. But no matter how important psychology will be in achieving profitability, a knowledge of the market will always be needed and therefore an unprofitable trader cannot only look for the psychological causes of unprofitability. In other words trading isn't "all about psychology", as some say.

For example, in many cases, he will mistakenly think that not using a stoploss and incurring in a loss is a psychological problem, whereas he will forget that in other instances he made money because of not using that same stoploss, and that is why this time he was skeptical about using it. So it is only a psychological problem in the sense that he doesn't realize that a rule that can have exceptions is not a rule, that the stoploss is not a rule for his method (and maybe that he doesn't even have a method). The problem centers around this: how many "univocal" rules do we really have in our discretionary system? A rule that can be broken is not a rule, a rule that can have exceptions is not a rule, and therefore we can't blame lack of discipline for a loss due to breaking that (non) rule. And a method that doesn't have at least one non-breakable rule is not a method. Then, if we have no univocal rules, and therefore no method (except "instinct"), our type trading is the most dependent on psychology - but still it is not entirely about psychology, because even if we don't state via rules our knowledge on the markets, it will influence our instinct, and it will be needed to be profitable.

Unfortunately, in discretionary trading there is no way to measure exactly how much your unprofitability is due to psychology and how much it is due to your lack of knowledge of the markets.

Last edited by Yamato; Sep 15, 2009 at 6:57pm.
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Old Sep 15, 2009, 8:09pm   #64
 
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Yamato started this thread My problem and obsession regarding discretionary trading vs automated trading is that I make money with the method that I am least attracted to.

It all boils down to this: do I care about being right or about making money? Since I care more about being right than about making money, I am more attracted to discretionary trading, but I also lose for the same reason, because I am unable to take losses (and I get many small wins, and a few huge losses) - since losses are the way the market tells me that I am wrong. And I have been wronged far too many times by my father and later by life (as a consequence of how I was brought up) to be able to take even one more loss or contradiction or criticism.

On the other hand, I never really felt a huge desire for more money and maybe I got into trading to impress my father with the amount of money I hoped to make, but not for the things I could buy with it.

At the same time, I have these awesome automated trading systems that make money, but they are not satisfactory because they mostly make money by going with the trend, something I totally dislike (bleah, doing the easiest thing and what everyone else is doing...), and most of all they do it without telling me that I'm right, and actually they do so because they are not doing what I would do, but what proved reasonable from back-testing. So they are right in a predictable way, and not because they are proving on a daily basis my intelligence in winning new challenges. Instead, I can get constant reassurance from the market that I am good and intelligent, and therefore only from discretionary trading where it's all up to you and nothing is granted.

I try to get it whenever I'm down and I feel the need for the market to tell me "good job". My father never told me "good job", and I still resent him for that. The problem is that, usually, with this attitude, the market tells me "good job" very softly, for these small wins, and tells me "you suck" very loudly, for I cannot recognize or rather accept a loss from the start and I let them become huge. Then again, don't get me wrong - I am not saying that if I solved this problem I would become profitable. I probably have also other problems that keep me from being profitable.

Speaking of small wins. Two days ago I made a few hundreds, yesterday 200, today 200. Everything evolves as usual. Now I'll get confident, and probably get a big "you suck", with a -1000 or worse. That's what happened so far in the last two years. Before that, I was just getting many consecutive "you suck" from the market, for a combined -400 every month.

Last edited by Yamato; Sep 15, 2009 at 8:16pm.
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Old Sep 17, 2009, 6:38pm   #65
 
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Yamato started this thread Ok, doing good. Capital still growing and growing.

Basically every week I've been taking out a few hundreds for living expenses and making about one thousand from trading or even a little more. I've been making a few hundreds a day, and - most importantly - no mistakes that cost me thousands in one trade like in the past (discretionary trades that went wrong). At this rate, I should be making about a few thousands a month, and get back to having enough capital to trade all systems in about two months.

Can I sit still for two months without doing anything stupid? That is a good question, and the answer is: I don't know. If I will do it and sit still, then I'll have the capital to trade all systems again, and gains will really take off, earning with trading 10 times what I get for salary, and I'll be able to spend as I wish (at least I won't have to save anymore). In two months, this will be the case. Can I sit still for two months and make it happen? All I have to do is do nothing. All I have to do is nothing. I have to do nothing. I must do nothing.

It's unbelievable how simple it is, and yet how hard it will be to make it happen: because I am used to working, acting. I am uncomfortable watching tv. If I do, I will start flipping channels like crazy. I am unable to relax, because relaxing seems like a waste of time. End of the show for today. More thinking on the next show.
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Old Sep 18, 2009, 11:18pm   #66
 
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Yamato started this thread The week has been good. It's been the second week of climbing up. Saved a thousand, and spent 300 more or less. For the past two weeks it has been this way. Also, I don't spend any of my salary, and next friday another monthly salary will come in, the fourth one that I am not touching. Good habits. I am getting used to supporting myself from my trading and to treat trading money like real money and not monopoly money, or just numbers, which is the way it had been until recently.

I am climbing back up to the capital I used to have. I also am trying to keep the amount of work at my job under control, because there's this tendency of giving everything to me, and letting the slackers do nothing all day long. It's ok... I mean it's not ok at all, but I'll bear with it for a few more months, but I do have to keep it under control, by taking breaks every once in a while. Two thirds of my bank does nothing all day long. The others have to do everything. I downloaded a software that will count down every minute and hour and day until the end of the year, when hopefully I'll be able to quit my job - or at least take a leave of absence for six months and then try to not go back. But this will only happen if oncoming success will not destabilize me so much that I will make myself lose.


Success destabilizes you

Whether you trade discretionary or automated success has a devastating effect on you (which only means "on me", because I don't know about the others). With discretionary it's way more dangerous than with automated. Here's some of the things that could happen with discretionary as you are successful:

1) getting more confident will change the way you trade (less prudent), to the extent that you may never go beyond a given capital, because it gets to your head, you make mistakes, and you get back to starting point.

2) having a larger capital may find you unprepared, and you may be unable to handle it properly, with the right money management. Or even if you make the same good entries, a larger loss will destabilize you more than a smaller loss, even though it will be the same in terms of percentage of your capital. You may skip a stoploss because the larger capital causes you greater losses and you are unwilling to accept them by exiting your position. That way you will then go back once again to your original capital, that you are comfortable with. I think that is why some traders prefer to trade with a small capital and set aside their gains, which is good but also keeps them from making a lot of money.


Which takes me to the advantages in terms of less destabilization from success that automated trading has:

1) Your capital increases but #1 above does not happen, because you are not the one making the calls regarding your trades. So capital will be able to grow at the same speed at before, not disturbed by your different perception of losses.

2) no other advantages that I can see right now, sorry.


On the other hand, here's some ways success could still destabilize even the automated trader, something I am fearing for the near future because it happened to me before:

1) discretionary success consequence #2 (above) may partially happen in the sense that sooner or later you will run out of good new systems to invest your money on, and you will stop diversifying. So that means that the next loss on one system will be bigger than it used to be: say 1000 instead of 500. This is going to hurt more, even though it's the same in terms of percentage. This may spur you to act and make a trade to get back what you lost, and that's when you screw yourself.

2) Another problem may be that you get excited by how much money you are making and start thinking you're really good and make discretionary trades once again. Or that you get so used to success that even a small loss, will upset you and once again cause you to start trading discretionary.

Basically, if you can keep success from destabilizing you and making you start to trade discretionary again, then your capital should increase.

Another thing I have to add - outside of trading - is that with my capital increasing, I usually feel the urge to spend more. And sometimes I have a feeling that I am trying to level my account to the regular account I've always had - which means almost empty, as if a big bank account made me uncomfortable. This needs a lot more investigation. Let me know your thoughts.

In summary, No matter what happens, success will change you, and since most likely you were optimal before (since you reached success because of how you were), changing something that is optimal is likely to make it worse.

Last edited by Yamato; Sep 19, 2009 at 9:15am.
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Old Sep 19, 2009, 5:42pm   #67
 
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Travis - Do you think your Automated systems represent your 12 years of hard work in terms of complexity; Or have you found that having done all this work in trying to acomplish discretionary trading; Your system trading is actually relatively simple in its methodology, maybe not its construction.

For instance, a man told me having been trading 6 years, all he uses now are two EMA's and a weekly chart to take his positions and through diversification across multiple markets and money management he is consistantly winning and i thought to myself how something so simple has to come from 6 years work; That @ the start, the simple things aren't stuck to long enough to see if they work and therefore new traders always ignore the easy things; Hence later on they may fully test them to find they work...

What do you think>?
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Old Sep 19, 2009, 7:25pm   #68
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The man told you right. Perhaps, there may be a few refinements along the way but the basics are those. The other 6 years are, probably, like mine, trying to find some complicated way of doing it better and coming back to the basics again. The man you were talking to was a trendfollower. That's much safer, IMO, than trying to catch the turns.

Good trading.

Last edited by Splitlink; Sep 19, 2009 at 7:49pm.
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Old Sep 19, 2009, 7:38pm   #69
 
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Originally Posted by GladiatorX View Post
Travis - Do you think your Automated systems represent your 12 years of hard work in terms of complexity; Or have you found that having done all this work in trying to acomplish discretionary trading; Your system trading is actually relatively simple in its methodology, maybe not its construction.

For instance, a man told me having been trading 6 years, all he uses now are two EMA's and a weekly chart to take his positions and through diversification across multiple markets and money management he is consistantly winning and i thought to myself how something so simple has to come from 6 years work; That @ the start, the simple things aren't stuck to long enough to see if they work and therefore new traders always ignore the easy things; Hence later on they may fully test them to find they work...

What do you think>?
The first thing I learnt about trading, over nine, long, years ago was simple technical analysis, mainly: support and resistance.

After nine years of trying everything else, it's now the only thing I use to make money.
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Old Sep 19, 2009, 8:13pm   #70
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The first thing I learnt about trading, over nine, long, years ago was simple technical analysis, mainly: support and resistance.

After nine years of trying everything else, it's now the only thing I use to make money.
and TBH (as your journey proves) it's not a concept that's easy to learn/use correctly despite its simplicity and how supposedly obvious...
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Old Sep 19, 2009, 8:34pm   #71
 
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Originally Posted by GladiatorX View Post
Travis - Do you think your Automated systems represent your 12 years of hard work in terms of complexity; Or have you found that having done all this work in trying to acomplish discretionary trading; Your system trading is actually relatively simple in its methodology, maybe not its construction.

For instance, a man told me having been trading 6 years, all he uses now are two EMA's and a weekly chart to take his positions and through diversification across multiple markets and money management he is consistantly winning and i thought to myself how something so simple has to come from 6 years work; That @ the start, the simple things aren't stuck to long enough to see if they work and therefore new traders always ignore the easy things; Hence later on they may fully test them to find they work...

What do you think>?
I will reply as I read your post.

My automated systems represent 12 years of knowledge but only my hard work since 2002. Before that, I was just trading discretionary, trying to do my best, but there was no effort made towards trading systems and automated trading, because I didn't know one could achieve such a thing. I didn't know where to put my efforts, and I just kept going in circles, mostly wasting my time. Then, since 2002 with trading systems and since 2005 with automated systems, I finally found something where my efforts paid off.

The principles in my systems are simple, but saying they are "simple" is like michelangelo said "I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free". I could say "I saw profit in trading, and carved out unprofitable things, until I set profit free", but it actually isn't that easy to find what methods are not needed and getting rid of all the bad things - it takes tons of marbles (capital) to practice and get it right. Of course, with hindsight, after many years, you know what is unnecessary and see that profit comes from a few rules. And right now, building systems is easier than automating them - which is the most tiring part, even though it's easier (more work and efforts, but easier).

Your 6-years trading friend is right, especially since he's doing discretionary. So, like Michelangelo, once he has developed his skills (conscious and unconscious skills), as long as his mind stays the same, balanced and everything (which is not exactly easy), then he'll tell you that it's easy and simple, and think that he's being successful with just a couple of rules, even though most likely he'll conscious of those two rules he told you, and he will be applying another 10 rules he didn't tell you, because he never stopped to think about them (since he never felt the need to automate his system).

Once you decide to automate your systems, like I did, for my mental limits which keep me from being successful at discretionary trading, things get much more complicated. First of all, even for a simple system like the one your friends says he's using, one has to be very clear about what exactly he's doing, which he might not even know (subconsciously he does, of course). Then once you know what works, you have to automate it, to such an extent that all you'll have to do is turn your programs on and off. That's when even a simple system starts becoming quite elaborate.

Last edited by Yamato; Sep 19, 2009 at 8:58pm.
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Old Sep 19, 2009, 9:24pm   #72
 
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Yamato started this thread Speaking of automating my trading systems. These last two weeks I've been lucky and I've come up with another 20 or more trading systems, which would make my method totally perfect, with no red weeks whatsoever as a consequence of having about 40 automated systems. If I add to that that I also came up with another semi-automated system on Italian stocks, then I'll have a total of about 50 different securities to be invested in at all times (not enough capital to do it yet, but that's good for the future). So, since everything is perfect method-wise, what is the problem?

Besides a lack of capital, which is the main problem, another and actually the biggest problem which however is just a consequence of the lack of capital is that I still have a job. I still have a job and a bad one.

At my bank everyone considers me the excel expert, so they come to me for tables, pivots, charts, statistics... it's terrible. At the start I was glad to be so valued by everyone, and I encouraged them. Right now it's a nightmare, because I wish to work at home on excel and tradestation, and at work I do just the same. After a few years spent working on excel 16 hours a day, my brain is starting to deteriorate and I am not half as quick as I was before. I hope it is not permanent.

I look stressed out. My eyes look tired. I look unhappy, tired, stressed out. Yet everyone keeps on asking me for help and giving me work. Not like bosses, but kindly with an expression of need, like they don't know who else to turn to. So I help them, usually. But sometimes I just took off, and came home by how much stress they had given me. By all fatigue I accumulated at work, this weekend I was unable to work on my systems. I can't even say that I need a vacation, because as soon as I'll come back to work it will be just the same. They are just exploiting me to the limit of a nervous breakdown.

So, I either start saying some "no", which is hard for me (because I don't want to disappoint anyone), or it will mean that I will go home suddenly getting up and leaving the office, like I did a few times already. Everyone is sympathetic, but no one gets off his ass and does his job. They all keep coming to me to ask me all sorts of questions and help.

If I last until the end of the year, and gather enough capital to quit my job without being called reckless by my parents, then it will be ok. I don't think I can last for longer than another 3 months. Two thirds of my colleagues are slackers, and all the work comes to me, increasingly so.

It goes against my education to refuse work they give me, and yet at the same time I know they are all exploiting me because of this. No one would even realize it if I started slowing down and slacking off, but it goes against my own beliefs. Except I can't keep these beliefs for much longer without exploding in rage against someone, for example this jerk who plays his radio all day long, and keeps me from concentrating.

I wish there was somewhere in the bank a psychiatrist with a bed for me to lie on. I wish I had a single.

90 more days and I will be ok, safe at home. Maybe I'll try to play smart. Maybe I'll go for a walk every once in a while.
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Old Sep 19, 2009, 10:36pm   #73
 
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Yamato started this thread Brainstorming on my recent problems and frustration

I don't like to sit and wait. I want to prove my intelligence. I want the market to tell me "wow, you're so smart: here's your prize for being smart". Just like from people, I need constant reassurance from the market about how good I am. So I've automated everything and yet I need action. I need to prove myself all the time. Maybe this is because I've always lacked other sources of approval, and I use trading as a substitute for real life. Anyway, invariably, every time I add my intuition to my automated system's trades, results get worse. Even when I say "wow, look, this is at the top, it won't rise any more...": even then, markets will keep rising and prove me wrong. Or when I say "look this guy has risen enough and this guy is going down, so I'll close the one that's risen a lot", then what happens is that the guy that had risen just keeps on rising, and the guy that had fallen just keeps on falling, so I end up losing again. So basically I need to use my energy elsewhere and leave my systems alone.

So I started making phone calls to friends and relatives telling them how I'll soon be rich, and how I am already supporting myself through trading. Really bad choice, with all sorts of potential negative consequences. Here, too, I should not use my energies, but find something else to do.

So I devised a system on Italian stocks, and I was pretty happy about it. I was going to invest a few hundreds per security and finally use my discretionary intuition and prove how smart I am. Problem: I realized that backtesting could help. Ultimately I came up with a semi-automated system, which is the best choice, but takes all fun out once again.

Bottom line: I don't know what to do. I am unhappy, I am restless. I should be like those guys in Las Vegas who fill their lives with gambling, but I know I can't because it brings me losses. So after all, if I don't take the gambling route, I am just as unhappy being a bored automated trader, who wants to spill the beans if not self-destuct.

I don't see myself with a growing capital in the future months. I rather see myself as self-destructing to keep that from happening. This diary will be the chronicle of that destruction or of my capital increasing. In trading both things happen really fast. Almost as fast as they happen in movies.

A lot of it comes from my father. He achieved a lot in life, but at the price of self-destructing and destroying those around him. All his life has been nothing but work. Never any enjoyment or relaxation. He spent it also criticizing me and my mom (and the world) for being less than perfect. I carry in myself much of his destruction virus, and have lead a hard work - no enjoyment life so far. My restlessness probably comes from that.

Last edited by Yamato; Sep 20, 2009 at 7:25am.
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Old Sep 21, 2009, 5:37pm   #74
 
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Yamato started this thread More money today. This time from my systems. I feel like I almost don't deserve it. I feel guilty for making money with trading, especially when it comes from my systems. Actually, I feel guilty when it's easy and regular. When the effort is gone, and it's easy, then I start feeling guilty. I have a real problem here. And now I'm feeling bad when the money I am making is just 1000 at most. No wonder I could never go beyond 30 thousands. Each time I get around that area, I start making a few thousands every day, and I start going crazy: from guilt when I win, and from guilt when I lose. It's terrible. Gotta do a lot of writing, thinking and talking before I can solve this, which is just one of the many problems that trading has highlighted in my behaviour and that trading is bringing up from my previously unknown subconscious...
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Old Sep 21, 2009, 6:06pm   #75
 
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More money today. This time from my systems. I feel like I almost don't deserve it. I feel guilty for making money with trading, especially when it comes from my systems. Actually, I feel guilty when it's easy and regular. When the effort is gone, and it's easy, then I start feeling guilty. I have a real problem here. And now I'm feeling bad when the money I am making is just 1000 at most. No wonder I could never go beyond 30 thousands. Each time I get around that area, I start making a few thousands every day, and I start going crazy: from guilt when I win, and from guilt when I lose. It's terrible. Gotta do a lot of writing, thinking and talking before I can solve this, which is just one of the many problems that trading has highlighted in my behaviour and that trading is bringing up from my previously unknown subconscious...
Feel grateful that your in a profitable position alot of people would wish to be in; Accumulating wealth is everyones goals; Prostitutes, bankers, supermarket workers - You have done well in creating a way of accumulating wealth on your own and you need to allow that to work so that you can then do what you want...
Maybe your problem is that you need some sort of recognition, you feel a need to impress; This is my interpretation from your posts anyway; And therefore money was never the aim... Impressing people and getting recognition and feeling good about being good at something maybe was your aim in trading... Hence you break the system because it doesn't achieve your real goals.

I think you should let your system work and have a monetary goal; something you like and really want to do and when you get a certain amount go do it; Travel maybe, go lengthy ski-ing holiday, go caribean, buy a motorbike ... I don't know.

Its a very difficult question to answer; what brings us hapiness... I sometimes wonder if everyone quests for happiness but in the end its so hard because what society thinks is happiness is wrong... Everyone is in a quest for money - Everyone. But what really makes us happy?

I'm getting an philosophical again ... Back to research.
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