What would you do ??

There has been much talk of spreadbetting companies adusting quote to benifit there own bussiness (this is illeagal price manipulation) Todate no one has any evedence from the companies that this happens.
I now have a transcript as evedence that this is normal practise.
Clearley this is ileagal and could if leaked cause seveare detrement to there business.
After years if suspecting that my stops have been hit exactly to the point of the order and believing its just my bad luck, and now having this evedence what would you do if you were in my situation ?
I beilieve due to these actions year todate they have cost me over £100k in stopped out trades that would of come good.

Many Thanks TomTom

First of all, I'd stop using spreadbetting companies altogether as imo they're todays equivalent of the bucket shops of Jesse Livermores era.

Bucket shops didn't work then, why should they work now ?

The business model is not to provide legitimate and fair access to markets to clients, it's to fleece them.

As for the "evidence" you have, consult a lawyer or pass it on to some newspapers.

There is always a great deal of disagreement about whether this can or does happen or not and has been argued by both sides of the view for years.

However, even if it is happening it is not illegal because there is no requirement from any SB company to reflect the actual instrument price. You are not dealing with the market direct, you are dealing with a quote given by the SB company and they are free to change it at any time to anything they wish to.

Before anyone starts telling me that they always reflect the underlying instrument price, well I say look at the quotes on Forex instruments just prior to an economic news release when the spread can be as wide as 25 pips and yet on my direct access platform it is 1 pip and often 0.


Paul

Trader333 said:

There is always a great deal of disagreement about whether this can or does happen or not and has been argued by both sides of the view for years.

However, even if it is happening it is not illegal because there is no requirement from any SB company to reflect the actual instrument price. You are not dealing with the market direct, you are dealing with a quote given by the SB company and they are free to change it at any time to anything they wish to.

Before anyone starts telling me that they always reflect the underlying instrument price, well I say look at the quotes on Forex instruments just prior to an economic news release when the spread can be as wide as 25 pips and yet on my direct access platform it is 1 pip and often 0.


Paul

Click to expand...

Paul,

I don't say that you are not right because I have only been attracted to Forex for a very short time, and Fins only allows GBP/USD. I use their chart and, also, the free "Daily FX" charts that are available as a cross check. Apart from the 3 point spread I have, so far, experienced no difference between the two quotes You will remember that last Monday was a day of great market activity and I netted 165 points that morning. There was no trouble with the famous "Price has moved on, Try again" box, either.

I'm not beating a drum for anybody but I was in the chatroom trading the Footsie with guys who had broker accounts, last year, and our entry and exit prices were satisfactorily close, as far as I was concerned.

You can be sure that if I get bad service from them, you will all hear me loud and clear.

Regards

Split

All markets try to run stops, put artificial size in the order book, push prices through levels just so they can fill big orders, its all part of the game. I realise it is slightly different in spreadbetting terms as they move the market without actual buying and selling pressure but the end result is the same.

These tricks become less of an issue if you trade longer term, its totally beyond me why people insist on trading short term with a spreadbetting account, even if youre the best trader in the world the spread will kill you eventually. Its hard enough scalping the futures market!

Beware Hazard To Your Wealth

Trader333 said:

There is always a great deal of disagreement about whether this can or does happen or not and has been argued by both sides of the view for years.

However, even if it is happening it is not illegal because there is no requirement from any SB company to reflect the actual instrument price. You are not dealing with the market direct, you are dealing with a quote given by the SB company and they are free to change it at any time to anything they wish to.

Before anyone starts telling me that they always reflect the underlying instrument price, well I say look at the quotes on Forex instruments just prior to an economic news release when the spread can be as wide as 25 pips and yet on my direct access platform it is 1 pip and often 0.


Paul

Click to expand...

Splitlink said:

Paul,

I don't say that you are not right because I have only been attracted to Forex for a very short time, and Fins only allows GBP/USD. I use their chart and, also, the free "Daily FX" charts that are available as a cross check. Apart from the 3 point spread I have, so far, experienced no difference between the two quotes You will remember that last Monday was a day of great market activity and I netted 165 points that morning. There was no trouble with the famous "Price has moved on, Try again" box, either.

I'm not beating a drum for anybody but I was in the chatroom trading the Footsie with guys who had broker accounts, last year, and our entry and exit prices were satisfactorily close, as far as I was concerned.

You can be sure that if I get bad service from them, you will all hear me loud and clear.

Regards

Split

Click to expand...

Hi Split & Trader 333

I think your both right

I have had on many occasions seen the Dow quotes with 2 sb firms be as wide as 15 pts
in both dead and busy markets. If its a big fast move well look at EOD I have seen quotes on wash bar +30 past recorded low of the Day and I am sure there are 100 "s of examples better than that.

You just have to be aware and trade and hold in longer time frame which I think you do anyway Split.:?:

Me I am off to direct access ASAP Dec 07 reason well fudged or their prices , just one more thing to think about , I for one don"t need or want any more.

I see the main issue as

I do not think for small stakes and learning etc the bucket shops are that bad, its just a shame they offer the small time frames (under 10 min charts) they obviously do it to encourage newbys to feel in control, they have read a couple of books and stops are placed under market swing lows etc it encourages over trading etc etc

weeeeeeeeee they are all gone , how much have we maximised our earnings on that bar or candle :!:

1 min candles of fudged market or their market data with Stock"y bobs or macd"y Histo"s things on chart and a stop 10pts from the price, your probably out before your in if you see what I mean

IMO in the small time frames, and me I don"t do pattens at all they are pattens to me that's it, but I always have a little giggle to myself when you see the Sbs drawing nice little flags and pennants in the lower time frames (under 5 mins) not done any research but would have thought you can give them a pasting on pattern break up when they decide they have enough in and revert to real market.

Don"t forget it does not take much to flash a buy or a Sell signal in the lower time frames and thus balance the BOOK.

OH YES , thats right they are BOOKMAKERS, NOT BROKERS


any way that's my moan done with for the day

Andy AKA

Hi TOM TOM

TomTom said:

There has been much talk of spreadbetting companies adusting quote to benifit there own bussiness (this is illeagal price manipulation) Todate no one has any evedence from the companies that this happens.
I now have a transcript as evedence that this is normal practise.
Clearley this is ileagal and could if leaked cause seveare detrement to there business.
After years if suspecting that my stops have been hit exactly to the point of the order and believing its just my bad luck, and now having this evedence what would you do if you were in my situation ?
I beilieve due to these actions year todate they have cost me over £100k in stopped out trades that would of come good.

Many Thanks TomTom

Click to expand...

BSD said:

First of all, I'd stop using spreadbetting companies altogether as imo they're todays equivalent of the bucket shops of Jesse Livermores era.

Bucket shops didn't work then, why should they work now ?

The business model is not to provide legitimate and fair access to markets to clients, it's to fleece them.

As for the "evidence" you have, consult a lawyer or pass it on to some newspapers.

Click to expand...

Hi TOM TOM,

Thats it in a NUTSHELL :!:

tommog said:

All markets try to run stops, put artificial size in the order book, push prices through levels just so they can fill big orders, its all part of the game. I realise it is slightly different in spreadbetting terms as they move the market without actual buying and selling pressure but the end result is the same.

These tricks become less of an issue if you trade longer term, its totally beyond me why people insist on trading short term with a spreadbetting account, even if youre the best trader in the world the spread will kill you eventually. Its hard enough scalping the futures market!

Click to expand...

Tommog,

I'm not trying to boast or prove anything, particularly, but I haven't had a losing Forex day this week and I can only trade mornings. That proves to me that it can be done. Everyone else will have to come to his own conclusions but I am sure of this. If people are not winning spreadbetting, they must be very, very sure of themselves if they switch to broker trading, where the stakes are considerably higher.

Split

Paul,

I don't say that you are not right because I have only been attracted to Forex for a very short time, and Fins only allows GBP/USD. I use their chart and, also, the free "Daily FX" charts that are available as a cross check. Apart from the 3 point spread I have, so far, experienced no difference between the two quotes You will remember that last Monday was a day of great market activity and I netted 165 points that morning. There was no trouble with the famous "Price has moved on, Try again" box, either.

I'm not beating a drum for anybody but I was in the chatroom trading the Footsie with guys who had broker accounts, last year, and our entry and exit prices were satisfactorily close, as far as I was concerned.

You can be sure that if I get bad service from them, you will all hear me loud and clear.

Regards

Split

Click to expand...

Hi Split,

I am referring specifically to just prior to economic news releases for Forex. Check the spread just before the announcement and often the spread has widened by a huge amount which just doesn't happen with direct access.


Paul

Trader333 said:

Hi Split,

I am referring specifically to just prior to economic news releases for Forex. Check the spread just before the announcement and often the spread has widened by a huge amount which just doesn't happen with direct access.


Paul

Click to expand...

Yes, will do from now on. Thanks for the advice.

Regards

Split

Spitlink,

My point wasn't that nobody can ever make money trading short term with a spreadbetting company. Just the simple mathmatics of it put you at a massive disavantage. Take, for example, a Dax trader trading with a spreadbetting company and pays a 3 tick spread on this product. He is a good trader and makes money regularly he takes 20 trades a day and makes on average 200 ticks a month. He would have spent 3 (spread)x20(trades in a day)x20 (trading days in a month) 1200 ticks you are giving up by trading with a spreadbetter. Even if we assume you dont get filled on the bid or offer in the futures and you need to hit or lift the next price you are still giving up 800 ticks by trading with a spreadbetter. These are very expensive margins and if you are still making an average of 200 ticks a month despite these cost go and get yourself backed by a firm, i know a lot of people that would love to get those returns.

FX is slightly different because even in the cash market you have to pay a bid ask spread but still think about how much it eats into your bottom line if you trade very actively.

Hope your week continues to go well

tommog said:

Spitlink,

My point wasn't that nobody can ever make money trading short term with a spreadbetting company. Just the simple mathmatics of it put you at a massive disavantage. Take, for example, a Dax trader trading with a spreadbetting company and pays a 3 tick spread on this product. He is a good trader and makes money regularly he takes 20 trades a day and makes on average 200 ticks a month. He would have spent 3 (spread)x20(trades in a day)x20 (trading days in a month) 1200 ticks you are giving up by trading with a spreadbetter. Even if we assume you dont get filled on the bid or offer in the futures and you need to hit or lift the next price you are still giving up 800 ticks by trading with a spreadbetter. These are very expensive margins and if you are still making an average of 200 ticks a month despite these cost go and get yourself backed by a firm, i know a lot of people that would love to get those returns.

FX is slightly different because even in the cash market you have to pay a bid ask spread but still think about how much it eats into your bottom line if you trade very actively.

Hope your week continues to go well

Click to expand...

Yes, I guess it's the way traders do things that makes the difference. I do one trade per morning, if I can get away with it, yesterday I did two because the first one was a loser. Forget Monday, because that was an exceptional day. These last two days I have taken 70 points net. Maybe a big loss is looming in the future but I can see that a three point spread is going to hammer traders looking for a few points gain, even on good days.

That's what being a professional is like.

Regards

Split

Hi Split

Splitlink said:

Tommog,

I'm not trying to boast or prove anything, particularly, but I haven't had a losing Forex day this week and I can only trade mornings. That proves to me that it can be done. Everyone else will have to come to his own conclusions but I am sure of this. If people are not winning spreadbetting, they must be very, very sure of themselves if they switch to broker trading, where the stakes are considerably higher.

Split

Click to expand...

Hello again Split

good trading by the way

Good post , and I will be treading carefully, very carefully in fact, so careful my broker will probably check after a month to see if I still want account :lol:

I have not had draw down or a losing week of any size for quite some time, and last weeks doing very nice thank you but just at what I consider learner stakes, certainly not much more than weeks shopping money per winning trade.

I am sure you are correct Split, but would say different methods require different tools, I don"t for example no your method and do not no how much draw down you except in a trade before you call it a day and move onto the next etc. I concede that since moving out in time frame I don"t seem to experience as many problems.

An Example

I traded capital spreads Demo for 2 months method good , at even £10 per pt I could give up me day job no problem, and remember we both trade mornings. Went live and chart and platform problems the whole time went back to Demo problem went away Tried again, the last time resulted in full 25 pt loss by time I got the platform up and running. I hardly ever realise a 25 pt loss its there hard, to well account for the unexpected, Platform downs became the expected.

How much confidence in trading would you have under these conditions.:?:

Fin Spreads when I had account with them they only let you log on if they were"t to busy, pay rolls day JOKE closed sign up at every quick bar, thats if you managed to Log on

I will let you no when I have had a look and paper traded at the real market for a bit you can"t get much safer than that IMO.

Confidence , well I for one would not trade at a meaningful amount with them over my preferred time frames , I have used most sbs while learning and any time I have increased stakes over say £5 per point its the same old story,

Crash - slow charts - disconnects etc The Slow charts or freezes are the worst, maybe I did scalp a little at 1st but once IMO you start

nailing the entry and making the trade a genuine low risk trade its a complete pain trying to trade with them, that's the way I see it and to be honest just don"t need the hassle any more.

MUST BE BAD LUCK FOR A WHOLE YEAR, or crap platforms who cares I for one am not trading at £10-30 per pt with the rubbish they offer.

For what its worth to anybody who wants to play them at any size , I would take Mr Rols advice and seek entry in the Hour charts and make that your Min time frame.

It is so bad, I considered stopping all together the jump up to IB broker is that big in my mind, tax free tax free tax free, good sales pitch.

If your in market at £10 per point and the charts stop or freeze, platform disconnects virtually every time I smell a rat and I am the slowest rat catcher there is :!:

http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/home.htm enough said IMO

I do use IG, and concede after man checked out pc, said no problems and changed a few things/settings, etc I have had no disconnects in 2 weeks. Service was good and tekky chapee seemed to have an interest in sorting problem. (3 trades only all winners Split) so fingers x,

Andy AKA

Addition

develbis said:

Hello again Split

good trading by the way

Good post , and I will be treading carefully, very carefully in fact, so careful my broker will probably check after a month to see if I still want account :lol:

I have not had draw down or a losing week of any size for quite some time, and last weeks doing very nice thank you but just at what I consider learner stakes, certainly not much more than weeks shopping money per winning trade.

I am sure you are correct Split, but would say different methods require different tools, I don"t for example no your method and do not no how much draw down you except in a trade before you call it a day and move onto the next etc. I concede that since moving out in time frame I don"t seem to experience as many problems.

An Example

I traded capital spreads Demo for 2 months method good , at even £10 per pt I could give up me day job no problem, and remember we both trade mornings. Went live and chart and platform problems the whole time went back to Demo problem went away Tried again, the last time resulted in full 25 pt loss by time I got the platform up and running. I hardly ever realise a 25 pt loss its there hard to well account for the unexpected, Platform downs became the expected.

How much confidence in trading would you have under these conditions.:?:

Fin Spreads when I had account with them they only let you log on if they were"t to busy, pay rolls day JOKE closed sign up at every quick bar, thats if you managed to Log on

I will let you no when I have had a look and paper traded at the real market for a bit you can"t get much safer than that IMO.

Confidence , well I for one would not trade at a meaningful amount with them over my preferred time frames , I have used most sbs while learning and any time I have increased stakes over say £5 per point its the same old story,

Crash - slow charts - disconnects etc The Slow charts or freezes are the worst, maybe I did scalp a little at 1st but once IMO you start

nailing the entry and making the trade a genuine low risk trade its a complete pain trying to trade with them, that's the way I see it and to be honest just don"t need the hassle any more.

MUST BE BAD LUCK FOR A WHOLE YEAR, or crap platforms who cares I for one am not trading at £10-30 per pt with the rubbish they offer.

For what its worth to anybody who wants to play them at any size , I would take Mr Rols advice and seek entry in the Hour charts and make that your Min time frame.

It is so bad, I considered stopping all together the jump up to IB broker is that big in my mind, tax free tax free tax free, good sales pitch.

If your in market at £10 per point and the charts stop or freeze, platform disconnects virtually every time I smell a rat and I am the slowest rat catcher there is :!:

http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/home.htm enough said IMO

I do use IG, and concede after man checked out pc, said no problems and changed a few things/settings, etc I have had no disconnects in 2 weeks. Service was good and tekky chapee seemed to have an interest in sorting problem. (3 trades only all winners Split) so fingers x,

Andy AKA

Click to expand...

Addition

I would also say that once confidence gone with provider, its the missed trades that cost the most, it just sort of gives you a lag on trigger finger when using any proper size IMO might be just me being daft , but that's what I have found anyway.

Hi TRADERS,
We are missing the point, SB companies must bais there quote's from the underlieing market.
The FSA would not allow a company to quote what ever prices they want.
Ok spreads are into account, but this is very relevent.

Conversation recording .......

SB,comany,, ' We move fair value up and down from the underlieing market through out the day, depending what postions are in the book. (talking about index quotes)

Tomtom, 'You cant do that, thats price manipulation'

SB,company,,' There nothing in our terms of business to say we cant do it'

Clearley this is fraud and heavy fines, usually follow not to mention the knock on effect to business, rotten publisity ect.

Who has been had in the past by SB companys doing this ?
Now after some conciderable amount of time we actually have this evedence.
The regulator will have isshues, also the miedia will like to know more about this evedence and traders storys about this kind of action.

So watch this space, for developments.
Your trader Tomtom

TomTom said:

We are missing the point, SB companies must bais there quote's from the underlieing market.

Click to expand...

You'll find the FSA's only interest in SBs is that they don't provide advice to their clients and that client funds are held in a segregated account. Providing they (the SB) meet these requirements, you’re covered up to £48K. If they don’t, you’re not.

The setting of SB’s prices relative (or not) to the underlying market, including the dynamic reassessment and re-pricing are totally outside the interest of remit of the FSA. To be fair, most things are outside the interest and remit of the FSA.

That you have an issue with how the SBs (or perhaps just one SB) hoves their bias in their own favour (surprise!) at every opportunity is just that – your issue. That some make a profit SBing is heartening - that most do not is understandable. The SB business model is set to make them money – not their clients, which is why high client turnover (in more senses than one) is essential. I suspect you’re one who has been turned over…

If you’re unhappy with this, and you seem to be, move onto a different DMA brokerage system rather than spin your wheels pointlessly on this debate.

Each new wave of newbie-to-SB throws up one or two from the disgruntled masses who are going to change things and set things right. They haven’t. You wont. For the simple reason that it suits those who are in a position to benefit from the current situation just at is it, to maintain that situation, which they can.

TomTom,

I know that you are clearly frustrated by this but I am going to ask you what is the difference between a betting company quoting whatever price they want on a horse race (which they do) and a different betting company quoting whatever price they want on a market ?

The FSA are pretty useless in this scenario because there is no requirement to match the underlying market in the quote and they also have little influence with betting companies. Personally I doubt you will get anywhere at all but as you say I will watch for your posts.


Paul

Hi TOM TOM

TheBramble said:

You'll find the FSA's only interest in SBs is that they don't provide advice to their clients and that client funds are held in a segregated account. Providing they (the SB) meet these requirements, you’re covered up to £48K. If they don’t, you’re not.

The setting of SB’s prices relative (or not) to the underlying market, including the dynamic reassessment and re-pricing are totally outside the interest of remit of the FSA. To be fair, most things are outside the interest and remit of the FSA.

That you have an issue with how the SBs (or perhaps just one SB) hoves their bias in their own favour (surprise!) at every opportunity is just that – your issue. That some make a profit SBing is heartening - that most do not is understandable. The SB business model is set to make them money – not their clients, which is why high client turnover (in more senses than one) is essential. I suspect you’re one who has been turned over…

If you’re unhappy with this, and you seem to be, move onto a different DMA brokerage system rather than spin your wheels pointlessly on this debate.

Each new wave of newbie-to-SB throws up one or two from the disgruntled masses who are going to change things and set things right. They haven’t. You wont. For the simple reason that it suits those who are in a position to benefit from the current situation just at is it, to maintain that situation, which they can.

Click to expand...

Trader333 said:

TomTom,

I know that you are clearly frustrated by this but I am going to ask you what is the difference between a betting company quoting whatever price they want on a horse race (which they do) and a different betting company quoting whatever price they want on a market ?

The FSA are pretty useless in this scenario because there is no requirement to match the underlying market in the quote and they also have little influence with betting companies. Personally I doubt you will get anywhere at all but as you say I will watch for your posts.


Paul

Click to expand...

BSD said:

First of all, I'd stop using spreadbetting companies altogether as imo they're todays equivalent of the bucket shops of Jesse Livermores era.

Bucket shops didn't work then, why should they work now ?

The business model is not to provide legitimate and fair access to markets to clients, it's to fleece them.

As for the "evidence" you have, consult a lawyer or pass it on to some newspapers.

Click to expand...

Hi all,

http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/products.htm

END OF THREAD

Have a good days trading, the prosecution rests again :!: any late witness"s on behalf of the Defence :?:

"No" then we"ll move to the sentence.

In light of the evidence, ................:|

A long time ago, well a year and 2 months to be exact, I phoned Fins to complain regards charts stopping at in appropriate times the lady fed up to the back teath with the same old complaint was a touch snappy, so I gave it her, quick as a flash she said with out thinking ~

"we have 2000 customers and they are"t experiencing any trouble" :!:

How many, is that it :?: your crop of fresh faced newbys to milk,

Not many make it through not many at all, just no what you no TOM TOM and move on.

Don"t get mad get even, but not with them that taught you the lesson, that would be taking revenge and that would be emotional trading in its worst form.

Got to go Ftse making a bid to escape open hour range

Trade well and take care TOM TOM, and stop beating this old drum

Andy AKA

Learned traders,

How do the problems iterated in this thread compare to CFDs? (often provided by the same companies). I would use CFD for shorting.

Thanks.

Morning develbis,

You're bitter.

Split