Trading is easy - making money is hard

This is a discussion on Trading is easy - making money is hard within the General Trading Chat forums, part of the Reception category; Originally Posted by wh92stang I agree that professional traders only trade truly profitable setups, but that doesn't mean someone cannot ...

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Old Mar 4, 2010, 5:05pm   #16
 
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

Quote:
Originally Posted by wh92stang View Post
I agree that professional traders only trade truly profitable setups, but that doesn't mean someone cannot trade every day and be a professional trader. Some professionals have an edge scalping quick moves every single day. But I do understand your point. Wait for true setups, anything else is gambling.
I day trade only, and have done for over a decade, I never under any circumstances keep a trade open over night, I trade FX only and focus on 2 pairings, I regard myself as a short term momentum trader, not a scalper and look to trade 2 or 3 times a day maximum with consistency. I trade a set up, which is simple, allows me to enter and exit trades with ease and little thought, more mechanical, based on my set up I suppose, I trade set stops and limits, never add to a losing in the hope I will get it back, I take the losses along with the wins, I trade 1:2 risk /reward. I record the statistics of every trade taken and those not taken to maintain a statistical database of my trading to enable me to be on the top of my game at all times.

Don't get greedy it has an uncanny knack of biting you when you least expect it, if you want to increase your exposure, do it gradually and within managed and sustainable limits.

Just my 2 penneth, good luck
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 5:08pm   #17
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

Dinos - that sounds almost exactly like the type of trader I'd like to become. Can you point me in the right direction on how to get started in that area? I've looked into IB as a broker but was wondering if a US-based broker would be better for me.
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 5:21pm   #18
 
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

Just copied this from another thread on here from SHANGHAI, for me this says it all,

"The single biggest piece of advice I would give is that there is no holy grail that is only available to the successful traders and institutions. Most profitable traders make their money from simple strategies but they execute those with great discipline and experience. They also understand the market conditions that those strategies work best under."

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Last edited by Dinos; Mar 4, 2010 at 6:03pm.
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 5:41pm   #19
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

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Originally Posted by Dinos View Post
I day trade only, and have done for over a decade, I never under any circumstances keep a trade open over night, I trade FX only and focus on 2 pairings, I regard myself as a short term momentum trader, not a scalper and look to trade 2 or 3 times a day maximum with consistency. I trade a set up, which is simple, allows me to enter and exit trades with ease and little thought, more mechanical, based on my set up I suppose, I trade set stops and limits, never add to a losing in the hope I will get it back, I take the losses along with the wins, I trade 1:2 risk /reward. I record the statistics of every trade taken and those not taken to maintain a statistical database of my trading to enable me to be on the top of my game at all times.

Don't get greedy it has an uncanny knack of biting you when you least expect it, if you want to increase your exposure, do it gradually and within managed and sustainable limits.

Just my 2 penneth, good luck
Good to see you back man, top advice (as always)
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 5:44pm   #20
 
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

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Originally Posted by oildaytrader View Post
Most pussies think they are ready to trade in one year.All these pussycats are S and P traders ,counter trend monkeys,support and resistance traders /random zone traders and swingers on Tarzan's rope.

Clicking a mouse button and placing a buy or sell order isn't trading,it is gambling buy is black and sell is red, your broker did not tell you that.You need knowledge and skill before clicking the mouse.

All these gamblers who are not professional traders but gamblers.

Professional don't trade every day, and some days do not need to trade at all.Those who rely on a daily wage are f**cked up traders who often trade without an edge.They will only see true profitable set ups two or three times a week, the rest is gambling.

It will take several years to be consistently profitable.

Does that help?
I don't know if I would have put it the same way as you Oil, but you are absolutely right. Takes most people years to figure this out.
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 6:03pm   #21
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

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Originally Posted by oildaytrader View Post
Most pussies think they are ready to trade in one year.All these pussycats are S and P traders ,counter trend monkeys,support and resistance traders /random zone traders and swingers on Tarzan's rope.

Clicking a mouse button and placing a buy or sell order isn't trading,it is gambling buy is black and sell is red, your broker did not tell you that.You need knowledge and skill before clicking the mouse.

All these gamblers who are not professional traders but gamblers.

Professional don't trade every day, and some days do not need to trade at all.Those who rely on a daily wage are f**cked up traders who often trade without an edge.They will only see true profitable set ups two or three times a week, the rest is gambling.

It will take several years to be consistently profitable.

Does that help?
Not entirely sure which is funnier, the hypocrisy, the irony, the sweet hint of bitter invective, or the fact that you're just plain wrong...knock yourself out..
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 6:22pm   #22
 
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

Thats like saying

'Roulette is easy, making money is hard'

You play roulette doubling up, you keep winning, you keep winning ... but every now and again your bet size gets too big and it wipes you out



Although i know this isn't the case with you, was just a joke.
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 7:53pm   #23
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

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Originally Posted by Black Swan View Post
Not entirely sure which is funnier, the hypocrisy, the irony, the sweet hint of bitter invective, or the fact that you're just plain wrong...knock yourself out..
Go on tell everybody you are trading with your 20 trades a day at bucketshop gold index.

and tell them ,S and P will close at number x or 1150 , yet on the roulete you will have a different number.Thats not trading ,its gambling on S and P.You win and lose, never overall profitable.

Trading profitable set ups with an edge is very different, the end result is very certain, better than the 50/50 chance, infact 75 % chance of a win.

O D T
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 8:01pm   #24
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

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Originally Posted by BSD View Post
Well mate I have the highest respect for your mechanical trading, and I think that the advice you're giving him is wise, but it's not the only way to go about it is it.

Everyones gotta figure out what works for them right.

If you talk with Tom who was at Futex there they have some of the biggest players in the S&P's who are pure scalpers, as were most of their predecessors on the floor or their later off-floor brethren like Paul Rotter who has made 50 - 60 million €uros / year for over a decade scalping the bund.

This guy here was a consistent loser until he started scalping:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gene...one-month.html

So while I agree with your point that for most it's much more sensible to trade off of higher time frames providing fewer high probability opportunities per week giving you more time to think things over, at the end of the day you'll have to do what provides the best mesh between your needs and personality which may well be diametrically opposed to what makes up the girl / guy next to you right.

If cutting losses very quickly poses no problems for you and profits start burning holes in your pockets pretty soon odds I'd say are pretty much against you that you'll succeed as a position trader, you just won't have the patience.

I think that's the biggest challenge in trading as in life, figuring out who you are, and what you want, two of the most important issues most probably remain clueless about for the remainder of their days on this planet I'd wager.

Which usually results in ending up where one didn't want to.

BSD i am in agreement with your post ,but don't really want new traders to get their nickers in a twist with scalping.It requires a different type of skill to scalp.Trading noise and wind isn't for new traders.

O D T
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 8:25pm   #25
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

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Originally Posted by wh92stang View Post

I've done this about 3 times now and need to stop before I run out of money to trade with. Anybody else have or had this problem and solved it?

Here is nice set up .Look for these buy at bottom of channel when price reverses back to the trendline .There are a few nice set ups like this every week.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gene...ml#post1065708

Here there were two today.Just look for intraday trends ,with small stops and good money management.
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 8:38pm   #26
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

wh92stang started this thread I know about setups, strategies etc. That is not what I'm asking. I can find great setups every day. My problem is with discipline. Waiting for prices to hit my levels, and in the 25% case my levels don't hold every once in a while I get a terrible idea and buy more to lower my cost average and end up getting killed. My problems are disipline and execution, not reading PASR.
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 8:48pm   #27
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

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Originally Posted by wh92stang View Post
I know about setups, strategies etc. That is not what I'm asking. I can find great setups every day. My problem is with discipline. Waiting for prices to hit my levels, and in the 25% case my levels don't hold every once in a while I get a terrible idea and buy more to lower my cost average and end up getting killed. My problems are disipline and execution, not reading PASR.
Automate your trade management , if your platform allows.On metatrader platform, I look for trade setups and place the autotrade management Expert advisor to do the rest.It can place the order at your entry price.It calculates position size and does trade management i.e tsl,b/e and t/p.After seeing a set up ,I let the autotrader software do the work and walk away.

This way I don't mess up or interfere.

O D T
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 8:51pm   #28
 
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

Quote:
Originally Posted by wh92stang View Post
I know about setups, strategies etc. That is not what I'm asking. I can find great setups every day. My problem is with discipline. Waiting for prices to hit my levels, and in the 25% case my levels don't hold every once in a while I get a terrible idea and buy more to lower my cost average and end up getting killed. My problems are disipline and execution, not reading PASR.
Elitejets posted this on another thread (I forget which). You might find it useful.

http://www.4shared.com/file/96740657...er_Market.html
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 9:14pm   #29
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

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Originally Posted by wh92stang View Post
I know about setups, strategies etc. That is not what I'm asking. I can find great setups every day. My problem is with discipline. Waiting for prices to hit my levels, and in the 25% case my levels don't hold every once in a while I get a terrible idea and buy more to lower my cost average and end up getting killed. My problems are disipline and execution, not reading PASR.
Lack of discipline is an issue for most traders, I'm no exception. It's that moment when you trade and your heart is beating fast, perhaps a little sweat on your brow, as you add to a position which has already gone through your previously set mental stop.. you KNOW this is going back up.

This is where we all fall down. It sounds to me like you have some good trading strategies to begin with.. why not write down all your rules (try to make it as simple as possible) and then keep a trading diary with a mark of 1-10 on how well you kept to your rules. You'll probably find that if you stick to your rules over time you'll do well, and take the adrenaline out of trading. Ultimately, you're just trying to make consistent profits.. if you want a rush, do a parachute jump or visit Alton Towers..
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 10:09pm   #30
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Re: Trading is easy - making money is hard

Quote:
Originally Posted by oildaytrader View Post
Go on tell everybody you are trading with your 20 trades a day at bucketshop gold index.

and tell them ,S and P will close at number x or 1150 , yet on the roulete you will have a different number.Thats not trading ,its gambling on S and P.You win and lose, never overall profitable.

Trading profitable set ups with an edge is very different, the end result is very certain, better than the 50/50 chance, infact 75 % chance of a win.

O D T
Hmmm....you stated;

"Most pussies think they are ready to trade in one year.All these pussycats are S and P traders ,counter trend monkeys,support and resistance traders /random zone traders and swingers on Tarzan's rope.

Clicking a mouse button and placing a buy or sell order isn't trading,it is gambling buy is black and sell is red, your broker did not tell you that.You need knowledge and skill before clicking the mouse.

All these gamblers who are not professional traders but gamblers.

Professional don't trade every day, and some days do not need to trade at all.Those who rely on a daily wage are f**cked up traders who often trade without an edge.They will only see true profitable set ups two or three times a week, the rest is gambling
.

It will take several years to be consistently profitable."
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Other than (arguably) the part highlighted in red the rest is bizarre. Quite frankly I find it absurd that you could opine what you did with such misplaced conviction...I'm not surprised that you continued with more of the same in your later reply ...

I know a guy on 'ere who takes on average 65 trades a day on equities (in 2 defined sessions). A guy on this thread operates v. succesfully off ten minute TFs, we've exchanged PMs, have similar views/methods, and I have absolute belief that he's a smart profitable operator.

Do you honestly believe that in prop houses, or at credible intstitutions they don't have a small army of guys and girls 'scalping' away (on all sort of exotic securites) ?

It's frightening that you're so wedded to your own prejudices and pre-conceptions, on how and what to trade...good luck with that, hope it works out for you...

BTW, same old for me today, same edge, same method across 7 pairs, eleven day trades, 7 winners (loonie trade still *live* since midday)...just closed UJ, thanks for asking...
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