What's luck got to do with it?...

Yuppie

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Right, interesting article in the latest New Scientist.

'What's luck got to do with it?'

The article is here.

The section (copied below) on knowing when to quit through 'diminishing returns' got my cogs turning as to possibilities for stopping trading for the day.

If you have trouble knowing when to quit, try getting your head around "diminishing returns" - the optimal stopping tool. The best way to demonstrate diminishing returns is the so-called marriage problem. Suppose you are told you must marry, and that you must choose your spouse out of 100 applicants. You may interview each applicant once. After each interview you must decide whether to marry that person. If you decline, you lose the opportunity forever. If you work your way through 99 applicants without choosing one, you must marry the 100th. You may think you have 1 in 100 chance of marrying your ideal partner, but the truth is that you can do a lot better than that.

If you interview half the potential partners then stop at the next best one - that is, the first one better than the best person you've already interviewed - you will marry the very best candidate about 25 per cent of the time. Once again, probability explains why. A quarter of the time, the second best partner will be in the first 50 people and the very best in the second. So 25 per cent of the time, the rule "stop at the next best one" will see you marrying the best candidate. Much of the rest of the time, you will end up marrying the 100th person, who has a 1 in 100 chance of being the worst, but hey, this is probability, not certainty.

You can do even better than 25 per cent, however. John Gilbert and Frederick Mosteller of Harvard University proved that you could raise your odds to 37 per cent by interviewing 37 people then stopping at the next best. The number 37 comes from dividing 100 by e, the base of the natural logarithms, which is roughly equal to 2.72. Gilbert and Mosteller's law works no matter how many candidates there are - you simply divide the number of options by e. So, for example, suppose you find 50 companies that offer car insurance but you have no idea whether the next quote will be better or worse than the previous one. Should you get a quote from all 50? No, phone up 18 (50 ÷ 2.72) and go with the next quote that beats the first 18.

This can also help you decide the optimal time to stop gambling. Say you fancy placing some bets at the bookies. Before you start, decide on the maximum number of bets you will make - 20, for example. To maximise your chance of walking away at the right time, make seven bets then stop at the next one that wins you more than the previous biggest win.



I'll add more thoughts soon, but, initially, my thoughts are running along the lines of this being a possible guide as to when to quit for the day - whether P&L is up or down.

Let's discuss...


Magnus
 
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The problem is whether they're talking about professional gambling or punting when they use the term "gambling". If you see a setup late in the day, take it.
 
The problem is whether they're talking about professional gambling or punting when they use the term "gambling". If you see a setup late in the day, take it.

Hopefully we can start to uncover whether this is actually the case.

I have a constant tug-of-war in my head with probabilities and how they may [or may not] apply to discretionary trading.

This thread might hopefully shed some light for myself and others.


Magnus
 
The only thing that can affect things is market behaviour at the end of the day (I mean trading session; I'm not a football team manager. I don't use phrases like "at the end of the day" or "it's a game of two halves". I'm not even into football - not enough fighting. :D ). I mean if you trade FTSE at 4.20pm, things are gonna liven up somewhat; if you're not used to trading that kind of volatility, it's gonna hurt (this is based on my observations from when I used to trade 5 minute binaries between 4pm and 4.30pm - if you want a rush, if you want excitement, if you want a thrill, put a £5/tick 5 minute binary "trade" on at 4.15pm.).

Personally, as I trade forex, I will take a signal at any time of day or night as I'm swinging. The only time I am careful is on a Friday afternoon. I don't want to end up holding a loser over the weekend.
 
The Law of Probabilities allows the interested party to make an assessment of the risk, but Lady Luck will, always, be the factor that makes the final decision. This is because there is, always. an unknown factor in the equation. For instance the lady you choose to be your wife may hate the sight of you from the start. The fact that you are the cause of her unlucky day may not be good news for either of you in the final analysis.
 
The only thing that can affect things is market behaviour at the end of the day (I mean trading session; I'm not a football team manager. I don't use phrases like "at the end of the day" or "it's a game of two halves". I'm not even into football - not enough fighting. :D ). I mean if you trade FTSE at 4.20pm, things are gonna liven up somewhat...


Okay, but how does this apply to knowing when to stop trading - or any other potential revealings of the quoted article or ensuing discussion?

Maybe there is nothing of value in pursuing this line of thought... but you never know...

Perhaps your binaries are a good initial example...

Let's say that you trade once at the end of each trading day. This is 20 trades per month.

How might it apply in this scenario?
 
The Law of Probabilities allows the interested party to make an assessment of the risk, but Lady Luck will, always, be the factor that makes the final decision. This is because there is, always. an unknown factor in the equation. For instance the lady you choose to be your wife may hate the sight of you from the start. The fact that you are the cause of her unlucky day may not be good news for either of you in the final analysis.


Indeed Splitlink!

But, luckily, we get to choose a new wife [read: trade] every day.

So, might the law of probabilities not be put work for us?
 
Sorry, Yuppie, this in answer to your #6

You can't do it that way. You have to calculate every move the best way that you can and then hope for the best outcome before your stop is hit. Even then, if you put your stop at 13, 13.5 will trigger it. Bad luck!
 
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My last two posts ended in questions.

Something to get the mind going as opposed to me being lazy (not that I'm not :p) and wanting answers.

I'm trying to feel around in which direction to go here.


Magnus
 
You can't do it that way. You have to calculate every move the best way that you can and then hope for the best outcome before your stop is hit. Even then, if you put your stop at 13, 13.5 will trigger it. Bad luck!


Incorrect use of analogy on my part there.

I don't mean to talk of individual trades.

I'm thinking more along the lines of series of trades.

Perhaps having a rough idea (maybe through back/forward-testing) of potential profits/losses.

knowing roughly how many trades we make per day, and factors such as win:loss and size-of-win to size-of-loss.

So, say you make 10 trades per day on average, and you typically go until the end of a session.

If you're having an up or down day by the time you've done your 4th trade (10 / e = 10 / 2.72 ~= 3.7 ~= 4 ).... might you stop after the next trade that is larger than your largest winner of those 4 trades (or the next trade that is a larger loss than you largest loser of those 4 trades)?
 
I really must brush up on my stats, but my gut reaction is it makes no difference when you quit. Leaving psychology and the details of any given trade out, and assuming you have a consistent disciplined system with an edge, your edge is the same statistically for every trade you make, regardless of whether you just had a series of losers or winners.
 
I really must brush up on my stats, but my gut reaction is it makes no difference when you quit. Leaving psychology and the details of any given trade out, and assuming you have a consistent disciplined system with an edge, your edge is the same statistically for every trade you make, regardless of whether you just had a series of losers or winners.


Have you heard of Parrondo's Paradox?

Two individually losing systems.

Played together results in a winning system.

That's a bit far removed from what I'm getting at. I mention it because probabilities can be ever so counter-intuitive.


Magnus
 
Have you heard of Parrondo's Paradox?

Two individually losing systems.

Played together results in a winning system.

That's a bit far removed from what I'm getting at. I mention it because probabilities can be ever so counter-intuitive.


Magnus

Indeed. The counter intuitive nature is exactly what I'm getting at. The assuming that you must get a win after 100 losses.

The method described here has some similarities with stake handling systems, like Martingale, which often seem like a good idea at first glance.
 
1) Okay, but how does this apply to knowing when to stop trading - or any other potential revealings of the quoted article or ensuing discussion?


2) Let's say that you trade once at the end of each trading day. This is 20 trades per month.

How might it apply in this scenario?

1) What I meant was that the conditions as the session change which can adversely affect the outcome of your trading system/style/strategy/methodology.

2) If you only traded the last 5 minute binary (4.25-4.30) every day and had a system that gave you an edge, then I would not stop using it just because the end of the month was coming up unless the last day of the month meant conditions changed and thus skewed the outcome of your system/style/strategy/methodology.
 
Right, interesting article in the latest New Scientist.

'What's luck got to do with it?'

The article is here.

The section (copied below) on knowing when to quit through 'diminishing returns' got my cogs turning as to possibilities for stopping trading for the day.

If you have trouble knowing when to quit, try getting your head around "diminishing returns" - the optimal stopping tool. The best way to demonstrate diminishing returns is the so-called marriage problem. Suppose you are told you must marry, and that you must choose your spouse out of 100 applicants. You may interview each applicant once. After each interview you must decide whether to marry that person. If you decline, you lose the opportunity forever. If you work your way through 99 applicants without choosing one, you must marry the 100th. You may think you have 1 in 100 chance of marrying your ideal partner, but the truth is that you can do a lot better than that.

If you interview half the potential partners then stop at the next best one - that is, the first one better than the best person you've already interviewed - you will marry the very best candidate about 25 per cent of the time. Once again, probability explains why. A quarter of the time, the second best partner will be in the first 50 people and the very best in the second. So 25 per cent of the time, the rule "stop at the next best one" will see you marrying the best candidate. Much of the rest of the time, you will end up marrying the 100th person, who has a 1 in 100 chance of being the worst, but hey, this is probability, not certainty.

You can do even better than 25 per cent, however. John Gilbert and Frederick Mosteller of Harvard University proved that you could raise your odds to 37 per cent by interviewing 37 people then stopping at the next best. The number 37 comes from dividing 100 by e, the base of the natural logarithms, which is roughly equal to 2.72. Gilbert and Mosteller's law works no matter how many candidates there are - you simply divide the number of options by e. So, for example, suppose you find 50 companies that offer car insurance but you have no idea whether the next quote will be better or worse than the previous one. Should you get a quote from all 50? No, phone up 18 (50 ÷ 2.72) and go with the next quote that beats the first 18.

This can also help you decide the optimal time to stop gambling. Say you fancy placing some bets at the bookies. Before you start, decide on the maximum number of bets you will make - 20, for example. To maximise your chance of walking away at the right time, make seven bets then stop at the next one that wins you more than the previous biggest win.



I'll add more thoughts soon, but, initially, my thoughts are running along the lines of this being a possible guide as to when to quit for the day - whether P&L is up or down.

Let's discuss...


Magnus

Luck is when preparedness meets opportunity.
There is NO luck in trading.
That is the beauty of the game.
 
Well, I'm glad we've cleared up that little issue.

Nothing like an unrelated empirical statement to stifle discussion.

I just read your thread title and responded to that- the rest of your opening post was too boring.
Besides my post, as opposed to yours, was at least helpful to traders.
 
2) If you only traded the last 5 minute binary (4.25-4.30) every day and had a system that gave you an edge, then I would not stop using it just because the end of the month was coming up unless the last day of the month meant conditions changed and thus skewed the outcome of your system/style/strategy/methodology.


I'm not talking about a time element.

To give a simple example...

Let's say a method typically consisted of a small number of large winners (I'm thinking 2-4 with respect to trading once a day for 20 days) - and they could occur at any time.

Now, what if after your 7th trade (that's 20 / e = 20 / 2,72 ~= 7.35 ~= 7) you stop trading (for the rest of the month at least) after your next winner that is larger than your largest winner of the previous 7 trades.

This next winner has a 37% chance of being the largest winner of the 20 trades in the month.

Might there not be an edge in knowing this?


Magnus
 
I really must brush up on my stats, but my gut reaction is it makes no difference when you quit. Leaving psychology and the details of any given trade out, and assuming you have a consistent disciplined system with an edge, your edge is the same statistically for every trade you make, regardless of whether you just had a series of losers or winners.

I agree. But psychology cannot be left out, because, as humans we find comfort in the fact that , the same as a cat has nine lives, so do we have more opportunities. No one knows when, or how many times luck will strike , nor whether it will be good or bad, because what is good for one is, equally, bad for others. How many battles have been won and lost on an unknown quantity that the generals did not foresee?
 
Might there not be an edge in knowing this?

Probably not.

Long run profits come from making bets with a positive expectancy, and the more of these bets you make, the more profit you make in the long run (law of large numbers etc.)

Furthermore, why does it matter that you'd stop trading after what might be the biggest winner of the month? You're going to make another trade afterwards, whether it's the next opportunity, or on the first day of the next month. The only difference is that the latter involves giving up some profitable opportunities.
 
I'm not talking about a time element.

To give a simple example...

Let's say a method typically consisted of a small number of large winners (I'm thinking 2-4 with respect to trading once a day for 20 days) - and they could occur at any time.

Now, what if after your 7th trade (that's 20 / e = 20 / 2,72 ~= 7.35 ~= 7) you stop trading (for the rest of the month at least) after your next winner that is larger than your largest winner of the previous 7 trades.

This next winner has a 37% chance of being the largest winner of the 20 trades in the month.

Might there not be an edge in knowing this?


Magnus

It doesn't work like that!
 
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