Mastering the game.

When will you be satisfied that you have mastered the trading game? I am inclined to say it’s when you have no more trading related questions that need answering and trading has become a completely effortless process.

new_trader said:

When will you be satisfied that you have mastered the trading game? I am inclined to say it’s when you have no more trading related questions that need answering and trading has become a completely effortless process.

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I disagree. When you think you have "mastered the game" is when your most likely fall will be. You will never know everything.

I'm an avid sailor with over 20k miles experience. I never go out sailing thinking there is nothing left to learn, every time I sail I return, review my day and take note of even the tiniest new thing that I have learnt. When I stop doing this I know that I have become a danger to myself and any others on board.

The same goes for trading.

A ‘spot on’ response JDR. And a good question from new_trader.

I suspect it’s a question most traders ask of themselves and others. I know I also did early on in my trading development. Perhaps you, JDR, within the first couple of thousand miles under your belt, also wondered if there was much more to learn. But the more deeply you get into any subject, the more you realise the amount you still have to learn is rising, quite delightfully, exponentially, not decreasing.

I crank on a lot about the unselfconscious ‘Passion’ required for eventual success in any endeavour, but it is key. As is persistence of course. But without a natural passion for your area of interest, you’re going to be looking for completion, for closure so you can get on with the ‘next thing’.

As for new_traders' 'effortless process' - yes. That's the boring part of trading, the largely automatic grind in executing trades that perform to a largely consistent profile. But that isn't the primary reason we're trading, is it...

That’s why I resonate so strongly with your comments on those who feel they have gained completion on anything being a danger to themselves (in trading) and to others too if they’re involved in your other passion of choice.

new_trader said:

When will you be satisfied that you have mastered the trading game? I am inclined to say it’s when you have no more trading related questions that need answering and trading has become a completely effortless process.

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Regarding your post, you just reminded me of a brilliant piece by Jean Paul Sartre (cant remember the exact title, but it was something like Isles Flotantes).

anyway, the bottomline of this article was about people that speciaise on a topic, age, and how potential mental senility began (in the topic at question for him at least) around 35 years of age. this assumes the individual has specialised in his field of study, becomes a specialist that practices his discipline, and stops learning.

However, in this article, he also mentioned which "specialists" do not suffer that mental senility. interestingly, it is those that continue learning. but learning from who you may ask? learning from new generations studying to become specialists is one way. this may mean becoming a teacher, but it is not a necessary condition.

i guess the bottomline is that when you think you cant learn any more in your topic of specialisation, then you are faced with this "mental senility" issue.

this is why i disagree with your statement.

j

TheBramble said:

Perhaps you, JDR, within the first couple of thousand miles under your belt, also wondered if there was much more to learn.

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Precisely. This is the dangerous period. With trading and sailing. Having enough experience to be confident of your abilities but not enough experience to have truly seen all conditions, markets or whatever.

However, the good news is that as long as you are not over-confident or too proud (e.g. In trading insisting you are right even though the market is proving you are wrong) then applying the experience that you have had up to the point when the sh*t hits the fan should see you through..... hopefully.

jacinto said:

Regarding your post, you just reminded me of a brilliant piece by Jean Paul Sartre (cant remember the exact title, but it was something like Isles Flotantes).

anyway, the bottomline of this article was about people that speciaise on a topic, age, and how potential mental senility began (in the topic at question for him at least) around 35 years of age. this assumes the individual has specialised in his field of study, becomes a specialist that practices his discipline, and stops learning.

However, in this article, he also mentioned which "specialists" do not suffer that mental senility. interestingly, it is those that continue learning. but learning from who you may ask? learning from new generations studying to become specialists is one way. this may mean becoming a teacher, but it is not a necessary condition.

i guess the bottomline is that when you think you cant learn any more in your topic of specialisation, then you are faced with this "mental senility" issue.

this is why i disagree with your statement.

j

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Your bottom line gives me incentive to keep on learning! That should not be too difficult at my level of the game!

Split

new_trader said:

When will you be satisfied that you have mastered the trading game? I am inclined to say it’s when you have no more trading related questions that need answering and trading has become a completely effortless process.

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The dinosaurs probably thought the same!

*JDR* said:

I disagree. When you think you have "mastered the game" is when your most likely fall will be. You will never know everything.

I'm an avid sailor with over 20k miles experience. I never go out sailing thinking there is nothing left to learn, every time I sail I return, review my day and take note of even the tiniest new thing that I have learnt. When I stop doing this I know that I have become a danger to myself and any others on board.

The same goes for trading.

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Good reply. I was thinking more along the lines of a chess grandmaster. Chess has a finite number of rules and pieces but an infinite number of possible moves and game plays. A grandmaster analyses every game and every move whether they win or lose. S/he also memorises opening moves of many other potential competitors and possible replies to them. I would still say that a Grandmaster has mastered their game.

To my mind, trading mastery is about mastering yourself.

Let's face it, we cannot hope to master the markets themselves. They are too big, too complex. We can master certain ways of looking at and evaluating the markets, but no one is ever going to master all of it. There's no reason to do so. There's no benefit to doing so. Even if we knew every single indicator, charting technique, statistical fact, etc. it wouldn't matter at all as it still comes down to application. Application is a personal thing, so without self mastery nothing else has any meaning.

Mastering change

How long or short a period of time is enough to say that you have mastered something? What one person defines as having mastered trading is going to be different to another's. If I said I have mastered how to gain 100 pips per week from the market is that being a master? If I can understand how/why/when my chosen market will act, is that it? Problem with the markets is that they have evolved over the years and will always continue to do so. I suppose as long as the individual is able to change along with their chosen market they can continue to be successful. Success levels vary from person to person; ie one man maybe happy with 10000 per annum another not happy unless he gets 1mill per annum.

As always more questions than answers when I look at these things! All good points raised so far though.

When will you be satisfied that you have mastered the trading game? I am inclined to say it’s when you have no more trading related questions that need answering and trading has become a completely effortless process.

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When you are confident of your edge. I know of no trader who has no more questions to answer or finds it effortless. Trading is, by its nature, a continuous process of questioning and interpretting everything and it is always hard work, a lot of hard work if you want to stay on top of your game.

TWI said:

When you are confident of your edge. I know of no trader who has no more questions to answer or finds it effortless. Trading is, by its nature, a continuous process of questioning and interpretting everything and it is always hard work, a lot of hard work if you want to stay on top of your game.

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Maybe effortless isn't the exactly right word for it, but I do agree that when one is sufficiently advanced the trading process becomes very easy. It's not so much of a struggle. That doesn't mean you've progressed beyond the point of having to do the work. It's just that the work is handled smoothly and efficiently. You analyze and you execute. The extraneous stuff has been whittled away.

Maybe I am just a slow learner..

The thing with trading is that every situation is different- so it doesn't matter how much you've learned - chances are you'll always be confronted with a new situation every week that tests your decision making process.

Same as GJ - I don't think I'll ever regard myself as anything more than competant - which in my books is good enough for me.

new_trader said:

When will you be satisfied that you have mastered the trading game? I am inclined to say it’s when you have no more trading related questions that need answering and trading has become a completely effortless process.

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I would add, without the slightest doubt, when it ceases to be work, and becomes fun.

GammaJammer said:

Ah - have to disagree with you there Soc - I don't consider myself to have mastery but I still consider it fun to be involved with the markets. I'm very grateful for the career Ive had (particularly as it wasn't something I ever set out to do).

It's not fun every day, but then again what jobs are? (and I guess bigger chunks of my day are devoted to management or admin type issues these days as opposed to just trading).

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Sure, and it reminds me of what Mr Partridge had to say on the subject.

SOCRATES said:

I would add, without the slightest doubt, when it ceases to be work, and becomes fun.

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Ahh, you see, I would disagree here and say the opposite.

When it ceases to be fun and and becomes work.

*JDR* said:

Ahh, you see, I would disagree here and say the opposite.

When it ceases to be fun and and becomes work.

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Agreed - trading has always been fun. Why do you think people do crosswords/sudoku - not because they are easy - because that wouldn't be fun!

GammaJammer said:

Alan Partridge?

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Mr Partridge, ( aka "Turkey") in the reminescences of a Stock Operator by Edwin Lefevre, is who I mean, sorry.

*JDR* said:

Ahh, you see, I would disagree here and say the opposite.

When it ceases to be fun and and becomes work.

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And I would agree with your disagreement.

Before it can become fun, there is a lot of work to do.

Only after all the work is done, can it be elevated to become fun.

Once it has become fun, it remains fun always.