Is full time Day Trading really sustainable?

I'm relatively new to this full time trading way of life and while I've been trading different ways and techniques I have almost come to the conclusion that Day trading is the least profitable way of trading!
I'm sure that there are a number of people here that Day Trade profitably but I can't get to grips with any structure in Day trading beyond intuition and basic short term, intraday fundamentals. Certainly I can't see intraday charting using moving averages anything else but Punting on lines that cross. In fact, I think the whole intraday, everyday trading will eventually yield a loss over a few weeks/months. Which explains why 70-80% of new Traders go under, particualry on Spread Betting.

Maybe I am wrong here but I would be interested to know of any Day Traders that have traded everyday for the medium to long term as a Full time job and turned it into a very profitable career.
Outside of that I would guess that most people are holding positions over longer periods of time and waiting for the right conditions to happen before placing positions.

Just my thoughts as a full time newbie to all this.

Just because you can't do it, it doesn't mean it isn't possible.

No, I can't do it either. Every time I get sucked into scalping (through boredom or lack of trading opps) I end up losing more than I win. When I swing, things go well, however.

Choicey123 said:

Maybe I am wrong here but I would be interested to know of any Day Traders that have traded everyday for the medium to long term as a Full time job and turned it into a very profitable career.
Outside of that I would guess that most people are holding positions over longer periods of time and waiting for the right conditions to happen before placing positions.

Just my thoughts as a full time newbie to all this.

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I've been both daytrading and position trading for a living for a few years.

jj

shadowninja said:

When I swing, things go well, however.

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Are you a swinger, SN ?

Choicey123 said:

I'm sure that there are a number of people here that Day Trade profitably but I can't get to grips with any structure in Day trading beyond intuition and basic short term, intraday fundamentals.

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"Intraday fundamentals"? That strikes me as being a contradiction in terms. Unless you're talking about news trading, which most definitely isn't the same as trading on the fundamentals.

Choicey123 said:

Maybe I am wrong here...

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Yep, you are. Big fish eats small fish, it's the rule

Bill

So you got into day trading before you answered that question? Oh boy.

I learnt early and trimmed my lossess quickly :whistling
Time to restrategise!....better to breakeven doing nothing than fight the tide!

Choicey123 said:

[EDIT]
waiting for the right conditions to happen before placing positions.

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Yes, this is all you need to do. Make sense?

No problem day trading here, although you have to be prepared to take a good position in an illiquid market overnight, or even for a few days, sometimes (like I shall almost certainly be today since everyone else trading this market seems to have gone home!).

Doubt it's plausible as a spread better though... I trade more or less like a market maker, very often my entire profit is the spread.

nkruger said:

Are you a swinger, SN ?

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I have a harness, too.

No problems here either, 8 years full time, albiet, I do mix swing short term trading with day trading, extreme discipline is required with day trading, clear, well tested strategy, entry conditions identified before a trade is taken, an exit strategy and stop loss is absolute minimum, I look upon day trading as a short window of opportunity to take the profit whilst its there, no hanging around for a few more points, see it bank it, move on.

Plan it, trade it without question, take a loss as it happens, and it will, say at 10 points below the entry point, once hit, out without question or thought (it might come back), it probably won't and you find yourself on the wrong side with you capital reducing heading to one of the statistics of failed traders.

On up side, identify a trend in the product you are going to trade, your set up should enable you to identify trends you can back test, eg: it may identify that a particular set up when that set up happens you can profit from that trade, if so check it, back check, test it, if it works, hey presto, rigidly apply the criteria.

Patience is a virtue, don't rush a trade, don't chase a trade, there will always be another around the corner

Dinos said:

Patience is a virtue, don't rush a trade, don't chase a trade, there will always be another around the corner

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so true!

Choicey123 said:

I'm relatively new to this full time trading way of life and while I've been trading different ways and techniques I have almost come to the conclusion that Day trading is the least profitable way of trading!
I'm sure that there are a number of people here that Day Trade profitably but I can't get to grips with any structure in Day trading beyond intuition and basic short term, intraday fundamentals. Certainly I can't see intraday charting using moving averages anything else but Punting on lines that cross. In fact, I think the whole intraday, everyday trading will eventually yield a loss over a few weeks/months. Which explains why 70-80% of new Traders go under, particualry on Spread Betting.

Maybe I am wrong here but I would be interested to know of any Day Traders that have traded everyday for the medium to long term as a Full time job and turned it into a very profitable career.
Outside of that I would guess that most people are holding positions over longer periods of time and waiting for the right conditions to happen before placing positions.

Just my thoughts as a full time newbie to all this.

Click to expand...

good post.

if you cant make money day trading, dont do it. stick to position trading if thats what makes you money.

the big money is sill in the big moves.

personally, i often enter a day trade but may turn it into a position trade (quite rare!) if its acting right. why keep your self in a box of day trader or position trader? be open minded.

Choicey123 said:

I'm relatively new to this full time trading way of life and while I've been trading different ways and techniques I have almost come to the conclusion that Day trading is the least profitable way of trading!

Click to expand...

How have you come to this conclusion?

Choicey123 said:

I'm sure that there are a number of people here that Day Trade profitably but I can't get to grips with any structure in Day trading beyond intuition and basic short term, intraday fundamentals.

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There are strategies that are employed in short term trading... including scalping. By the way, can you clarify what you mean by 'intraday fundamentals' - do you mean trading news?

Choicey123 said:

Certainly I can't see intraday charting using moving averages anything else but Punting on lines that cross. In fact, I think the whole intraday, everyday trading will eventually yield a loss over a few weeks/months.

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Why do you think that a graph of 10 minute price bars is any different from a graph of 10 day price bars? Assuming a liquid market the signals should still be valid.

Choicey123 said:

Which explains why 70-80% of new Traders go under, particualry on Spread Betting.

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I would expect that most new guys 'go under' because they don't know what they are doing.

Choicey123 said:

Maybe I am wrong here but I would be interested to know of any Day Traders that have traded everyday for the medium to long term as a Full time job and turned it into a very profitable career.

Click to expand...

Walk into any prop-house in the city and you'll find a subset of them who just daytrade and do so profitably.

Choicey123 said:

Outside of that I would guess that most people are holding positions over longer periods of time and waiting for the right conditions to happen before placing positions.

Click to expand...

You can still wait for the right conditions to happen before placing orders when day-trading. In fact, that wil keep your round trip costs down!!!

Choicey123 said:

Just my thoughts as a full time newbie to all this.

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I traded for 2 months full time as a junior and was profitable before round trip costs all but one day (profitable all but 3 days when you take into account round trips). That should give you an indication...

Choicey123 said:

I'm relatively new to this full time trading way of life and while I've been trading different ways and techniques I have almost come to the conclusion that Day trading is the least profitable way of trading!
I'm sure that there are a number of people here that Day Trade profitably but I can't get to grips with any structure in Day trading beyond intuition and basic short term, intraday fundamentals. Certainly I can't see intraday charting using moving averages anything else but Punting on lines that cross. In fact, I think the whole intraday, everyday trading will eventually yield a loss over a few weeks/months. Which explains why 70-80% of new Traders go under, particualry on Spread Betting.

Maybe I am wrong here but I would be interested to know of any Day Traders that have traded everyday for the medium to long term as a Full time job and turned it into a very profitable career.
Outside of that I would guess that most people are holding positions over longer periods of time and waiting for the right conditions to happen before placing positions.

Just my thoughts as a full time newbie to all this.

Click to expand...

As long as n00bs begin intra day trading with a mindset such as yours, there will always be plenty of money up for grabs for the hundreds of profitable/massively profitable day traders out there....... seriously think about that

Choicey123 said:

I'm relatively new to this full time trading way of life and while I've been trading different ways and techniques I have almost come to the conclusion that Day trading is the least profitable way of trading!
I'm sure that there are a number of people here that Day Trade profitably but I can't get to grips with any structure in Day trading beyond intuition and basic short term, intraday fundamentals. Certainly I can't see intraday charting using moving averages anything else but Punting on lines that cross. In fact, I think the whole intraday, everyday trading will eventually yield a loss over a few weeks/months. Which explains why 70-80% of new Traders go under, particualry on Spread Betting.

Maybe I am wrong here but I would be interested to know of any Day Traders that have traded everyday for the medium to long term as a Full time job and turned it into a very profitable career.
Outside of that I would guess that most people are holding positions over longer periods of time and waiting for the right conditions to happen before placing positions.

Just my thoughts as a full time newbie to all this.

Click to expand...

Hi Choicey123,

There are many excellent day traders out there that make a lot of money consistently. I have been fortunate enough to meet traders both on this forum and recently at the firm where I have started work that are winning time and time again on the very short TFs.

However, there is nothing wrong with admitting that you have tried day trading and it is not for you. If you can't get to grips with it there is no shame in that. Personally, I don't think the very low time frames are for me either.

And it works both ways. I have no doubt that some of the most excellent scalpers that generate thousands of ticks per day would lose money consistently (at least initially) if they were forced to try swing trading or trend trading.

You have to find what you can do and once you have done it, study it, refine it and apply it.

I just trade mornings. At 1330 I close for the day. There are good trades to be had and I am sure that there are good traders, out there who can, and do, trade successfully on a continuous basis. I have my ups and downs but have found it to be worth my while to morning trade.

I, personally, do not think that I am good enough to make it a full time occupation, though, neither do I think that I would like it all day.

Split

Viable or not

Splitlink said:

I just trade mornings. At 1330 I close for the day. There are good trades to be had and I am sure that there are good traders, out there who can, and do, trade successfully on a continuous basis. I have my ups and downs but have found it to be worth my while to morning trade.

I, personally, do not think that I am good enough to make it a full time occupation, though, neither do I think that I would like it all day.

Split

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Hi Split

Don"t no yet but going ok and worth it, keep the same hrs as you Split but only one market, keep doing ok and move to DA gone without blowing up (so far) not pushing myself to hard.

Laptop posted on another thread a bit back. I thought it was a very good observation.............

A lot of peaple can probably trade in the money and do ok to good, but are they good enough to trade at size, a big hurdle to X perhaps if their method and confidence -everything etc not 110% + do they want to :?:

I do not think I want to trade full time, I miss the real world, real people etc and the time involved is extreme, well it is for my weee brain, I will stick to one market.

I work part time a few afternoons per week = no flap to find trades if they don"t measure up, so ideal really I can usually choose to stay on trading most days if I want to, so .........best stop loss you can have IMO and I do not intend pushing for more, if it happens if not

I just trade like I play snooker...................one shot at a time, the best I can do, select what I think is the best shot for the moment :|

To many bad uns ..................you get to go home early

Yes it is easy possible to trade intra day and make enough money to pay your way, its very viable, I am a daft painter so more talented individuals will IMO have no trouble if they observe Dinos words of advice

Is it hard work to get to the point where you can answer the question

have a go and find out

PinkPig said:

Hi Split

Don"t no yet but going ok and worth it, keep the same hrs as you Split but only one market, keep doing ok and move to DA gone without blowing up (so far) not pushing myself to hard.

Laptop posted on another thread a bit back. I thought it was a very good observation.............

A lot of peaple can probably trade in the money and do ok to good, but are they good enough to trade at size, a big hurdle to X perhaps if their method and confidence -everything etc not 110% + do they want to :?:

I do not think I want to trade full time, I miss the real world, real people etc and the time involved is extreme, well it is for my weee brain, I will stick to one market.

I work part time a few afternoons per week = no flap to find trades if they don"t measure up, so ideal really I can usually choose to stay on trading most days if I want to, so .........best stop loss you can have IMO and I do not intend pushing for more, if it happens if not

I just trade like I play snooker...................one shot at a time, the best I can do, select what I think is the best shot for the moment :|

To many bad uns ..................you get to go home early

Yes it is easy possible to trade intra day and make enough money to pay your way, its very viable, I am a daft painter so more talented individuals will IMO have no trouble if they observe Dinos words of advice

Is it hard work to get to the point where you can answer the question

have a go and find out

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Hi Andy,

You, of course, have taken a big step and I wish you all the best with it.

Split.