whst to study???????/

[david david]

Hi there,
to cut to the point, i am trying to decide between 2 university degrees and having no luck. the toss up is between business economics and economics and finance.
i know there is not much between the two but i believe they will lead to different types of jobs, and it is this lack of knowledge of which degrees will lead to which jobs is the cause of my confusion. any help??????????????????????????

 

[Skill Leverage]

Ha I wish I was a kid again...

The difference between those two degrees is going to make absolutely zero difference to your employability. I have a friend who studied History of Art and is now trading for Royal Bank of Canada. Don't worry about it, just get good grades, do some decent work experience, etc...

Pick a degree which you'll enjoy, that is absolutely crucial. If you enjoy your degree you will do well, and that is far, far better than picking the 'right' degree and doing less well because you don't love the material.

 

[Skill Leverage]

I think you misunderstand what I mean; I was trying to say that the subject of your undergrad degree doesn't matter. I completely agree that a first may not be enough to get you into the bulge bracket firms these days, but if you had two candidates with similar work experience, who both had MBAs, but one had done French at undergrad and one Economics, I doubt very much that they would prefer one over the other.

 

[Arbu]

Interesting that despite the swathes of redundancies lately from the banks, these forums are still awash with people who think this is somthing they want to do.

I graduated in 1989, a year after the stock market crash, and the situation was similar to how it is now - masses of redundancies and no jobs. This put a lot of people in my year (including me) off working in banking. But of course it came back again...

 

[Skill Leverage]

I think it's probably because the people who are really serious about it aren't purely motivated by money... Trading for me represents the opportunity to cut out the slack incompetence of management hierarchies, and corporate bloat. Without wanting to sound like a massive cliché, it's you and the markets, you live and die by your wits and efforts. I would take less money to be a trader who loved his job than an accountant who dreaded the ride to work.

 

[brut]

just do engineering. you can't teach engineering to financiers, but you can teach finance to engineers.

 

[gooseman]

I think it's probably because the people who are really serious about it aren't purely motivated by money... Trading for me represents the opportunity to cut out the slack incompetence of management hierarchies, and corporate bloat. .

Depends what type of trader and where.

Self financed yes
Bank no
Hedge fund ish

 

[Skill Leverage]

Yup, agreed gooseman. Hence why I have applied to prop firms and not i-banks. I'm not in it for the glamour, I just have a morbid fear of spending my life being told what to do by people who have no experience of the role they are managing.

 

[Skill Leverage]

Apologies for hijacking the thread, david!

 

[MrGecko]

I will say Economics and Finance over Business and Economics; of course this is just my personal preference, but studying Business is boring as hell (marketing / cost accounting / theories of the firm etc...), and the finance elements of your course might put you in a stronger position for an MSc in a related field.

 

[david david]

Not sure I fully agree. In this environment the market for grad jobs is getting more and more competitive. While I personally would look beyond the traditional educational norms if I were a head of HR, the simple fact is they usually don't.

So, depending on the desired career path, a first degree may well no longer be enough. That was kind of starting to look like the case in general when I finished my undergrad degree (as a result of which I had already sorted out a postgrad place). In hindsight I was a tad early in terms of HAVING to have a higher qualification, but nowadays I wouldn't chance it.

But agree fully about work experience, in terms both of employability and in terms of your own better understanding of the markets and what career options are available.

Interesting that despite the swathes of redundancies lately from the banks, these forums are still awash with people who think this is somthing they want to do.

I have no idea what my own perception would be of this job / industry if I were looking at it with fresh eyes right now, but I bet it wouldn't be the same as it was 15 odd years ago.

Thanks for the reply. where also would you advise to look for work experience during the holidays between terms? In response to your comment, surely this is a bit of a pessimistic view as i believe that the state of the current economies can/will only improve, especially as it will take me a good couple of years to get the qualification i want.

 

[Skill Leverage]

I'm sure you're in a position to know a lot more than me about the matter, but I know a good number of people involved in trading, and they tell me a very different story. Out of 6 people I know working in the City now, only one studied econ, and one maths. I have read interviews with recruiters from major investment banks who say that degree subject is nowhere near as important as extra-curricular activity, work experience, and personality.

Showing an interest from a young age is valuable I'm sure, but ultimately the large majority of 17 year-olds don't know their a$$hole from their elbow, never mind where they want to be in 10 years.

I studied maths at University, and aside from one financial mathematics module I can't really see how I would have an advantage in trading my own account over someone from a non-quantitative background. Does a successful trader need to be able to derive Black-Scholes? Personally, I don't think so.

But as I said, you have been doing this a long time, and perhaps I have read the wrong information.

 

[david david]

Apologies for hijacking the thread, david!

no worries, your views have been a help

 

[gooseman]

i think it is important to have a mind which is able to process numbers. By that I mean some people have a natural ability (we shall call it ability for arguments sake) applicable to certain things, be that driving, spatial awareness, problem solving, sudoku, computer games whatever the case maybe. It is a good thing that a trader can handle basic calcualtions easily under pressure and be able to digest/process information in order to react correctly (if inded it is that style of trading you wish to follow). certain degree subjexts lend themselves to candidates, some don't-example we have plenty of engineers here and not a great deal of arts graduates.

experience is now what is setting very high quality candidates apart-i.e. has someone shown at least an interst in financial markets other than "i want to be a trader" which is all too commonplace across all social classes.

 

[Skill Leverage]

Agreed, and I think that's why banks give you a numeracy test at first round. Obviously maths/engineering grads will be good at mental arithmetic, but just because someone studied Art History doesn't mean that they can't process numbers, it just means they chose not to process numbers for 4 years in between drinking.

 

[Skill Leverage]

or 3 years, if you're English

 

[Skill Leverage]

Incidentally David, if I were in your position and had to follow the advice of someone who had been in the industry for 15 years, or someone who had just left university, I would go with the former... I'm merely expressing my point of view.

 

[MrGecko]

Depends what type of trader and where.

Self financed yes
Bank no
Hedge fund ish

what exactly do you mean? Can you clarify?

 

[gooseman]

the bloke was saying there is no management/beaurocracy issues in trading, it's "you versus the market"-i'm saying there is in a very simple breakdown.

 

[Skill Leverage]

Yup Goose and Gamma explain it well; obviously any company you work for you are going to have to deal with a certain level of bureaucracy/office politics, I just happen to see trading as a way of minimalising it.

I'm sort of making myself sound like a bit of an antisocial tw*t here ha... I very much value sharing ideas and information with people in a work environment (such as we're doing here), I'm talking more about the ridiculous protocols that some of the organisations I have had experience of have in place - the kind of thing where you can see a direct route from A to D, but you are made to go through B and C, and are frowned upon if you show any sort of initiative for your job. A meritocracy is exactly what I would like to be a part of, but that doesn't mean I want to go off on my own. Which is why, for me, the prospect of being trained and nurtured by a proprietary firm is absolutely ideal.