which prop firms offer a salary in u.s.?

[airisthere]

i was curious if anyone here knew of any prop firms which provided a salary in the u.s. ive read a lot of threads where they were saying dont work for a prop firm unless they offer salary. i havent been able to find a firm that offers one.

 

[Directional]

suggest you read this thread. London firms are being discussed, but principles are the same.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-firm/37296-if-you-re-looking-go-prop-get-paid.html

 

[dr_sean]

here is a little working list of salary paying US firms (pretty much all options market makers)

Spot Trading (prop trading pays a salary, upstairs)
Jump Trading (prop trading pays a salary, upstairs)
Infinium Capital (CBOE equity, index, CME financial & ag, on floor & upstairs)
Wolverine (CBOE equity & index market making, CME, on floor & upstairs)
Group One (CBOE equity market making, on floor)
Jane Street Capital (does equity market making as well as pairs trades / they allege "stat arb" wrongly, on floor & upstairs)
Ronin (market making w/ some prop mixed in I think, not positive they start you on a salary that but I believe so, on floor & upstairs)
Belvedere (SPX, OEX market making, on floor)
Transmarket (CME fixed income market making, upstairs)
Susquehanna (CBOE equity market making, ETF market making, on floor & upstairs)
IMC (CBOE equity & index market making on floor & upstairs)
Optiver (CBOE equity & index market making all upstairs)
Peak6 (CBOE equity market making all upstairs)
Chicago Trading Co. (CBOE & CME equity & index market making on floor & upstairs)
Liquid Capital (US & UK, in US, CBOE & CME index market making on floor & upstairs)
Blue Capital (CBOE SPX, RUT, OEX market making on floor, some upstairs prop, not sure if they are hiring new guys)
KC Co II (CME index market making on floor & upstairs, again not sure they are hiring new guys)
Everest (CBOE equity mm on floor, no web-site that I know of)
Knight Capital (don't know how many are sales-traders v. market makers, upstairs)
Bear Wagner (NYSE specialist)
Oscar Gruss & Son (same)
GFI (again sales trading mostly, but know some guys do executions, upstairs)
First New York (prop gig no MM, but pays a salary, upstairs)

 

[Ponce]

With the premise that you can trade positive math expectancy,why would anyone trade to make the firm profits,and not do it directly for themselves?

Other than the illusion of security ,health benefits that dwindle each year,and the possibility that your supervisor may be more incompetent than you,its not the place to become an independent trader.

A successful trader who can live off their trades is about as independent and self sufficient one can be.The motive to trade for anyone baffles me.Even worse is the desire to help others aspiring to the lifestyle.It cost nothing to instruct someone you would like to help,yet attempting to show someone the obvious of how trading can be consistent is like pulling teeth.To be fortunate to have someone explain how to trade is rare,I am eternally thankful for the patience that a stranger showed me.

To list what is required to be a consistently green trader would be a great idea.

I'll mention a few to get a consensus on?

1. Anyone who risks capital is a trader.The word "Investor" should be stricken from the language.Timeframe of trade premise,and direction of trade is the only variable.
2.Realizing that any market that trades a bid/ask is in reality a public account of funds that can be deposited-donated to,or withdrawn from if access to that market is available to the trader.
3.Nothing has a certain outcome,trading a market,buying real estate,getting married,bowel movement,waking up.etc...
4.How much you decide to risk-pay-donate-gamble etc... to participate in the outcome of an event is your decision,along with how much you are willing to take when you experience a winning event.Example ,you play lotto for $5,you have winning ticket that states you have won,but the prize is unknown,let us know when you want to stop collecting ,and choose to play again for $5.

 

[fifty2aces]

With the premise that you can trade positive math expectancy,why would anyone trade to make the firm profits,and not do it directly for themselves?

Just because you have positive expectancy, doesn't mean you can trade your own money for a living. There's two main situations where I think getting backed is particularly useful:

1) You're undercapitalised from the start - if you're straight out of school/college/uni and don't have enough money to fund a trading account, trading someone else's money is probably going to be preferable to saving up yourself.

2) You're profitable, but not hugely in % terms. For example, if you can make 5% a month and have a $10,000 account, you could trade for yourself, but it'll take a while to compound your way to a decent income - especially if you need to make regular withdrawls to meet living costs. If you get someone else to back you, you could pretty quickly get a much larger income, provided you're consistent. Ultimately it's a question of whether you would rather have a tiny pie all to yourself, or a decent share of a much larger pie.


Of course, if like most people on the internet, you make 100% a week with no losing trades, going prop is probably not for you.

 

[dr_sean]

Hmmm forum topic was "which prop firms offer a salary in u.s.?" not "differences between trading for yourself or trading for a firm."

 

[FXSCALPER2]

Salaries at prop houses sound like a retarded idea to me. If you work for a company that makes widgets, it makes sense you get a salary since the money comes from selling the widgets. What the fukc kind of sense does it make to expect a firm to pay you money whether you make money or not when their income is supposed to come from you trading their account? People are d!ckheads. If you want to have a safe life with a mortgage and 2.5 children, study accounting and get some boring job somewhere, preferably with the government.

 

[dr_sean]

of course there is a percentage but the point is, they pay a base salary, most important to new guys like those of us who've graduated college and don't want to fall flat on our faces as soon as we take our first job.

But for anybody, a firm that pays a base is the better option. The scalability just doesn't compare. I know two guys in their mid-20s who trade 20k contracts on a regular day, more lately. You just can't compare w/ that on your own not the buying power, not the technology, not the discretion. No contest.

 

[fifty2aces]

But for anybody, a firm that pays a base is the better option.

Not really - base salaries will always be better if you are unprofitable, since you'll be subsidised by the profitable guys. Obviously if you're one of the profitable guys, you aren't going to be that happy about subsidising the losers.

If you're going in as a profitable trader with a long track record, and enough savings to get yourself through a drawdown, you'll most likely prefer a larger profit split to a salary.

That doesn't mean paying a base salary is completely bad - like you say, a lot of people can't afford to work for nothing, so paying trainees a small salary could attract more (potential) talent, which will hopefully result in more profits down the line.

 

[FXSCALPER2]

of course there is a percentage but the point is, they pay a base salary, most important to new guys like those of us who've graduated college and don't want to fall flat on our faces as soon as we take our first job.

But for anybody, a firm that pays a base is the better option. The scalability just doesn't compare. I know two guys in their mid-20s who trade 20k contracts on a regular day, more lately. You just can't compare w/ that on your own not the buying power, not the technology, not the discretion. No contest.

So get a job that pays a salary and forget trading.

 

[greens76]

Some people are such idiots in this forum. They act as if they speak gospel when really everyone's situation is different. I have been a prop trader for 3 of the groups on this list (three of the best ones in my honest opinion. I am also involved in my current firm's recruiting efforts. At all 3 of the places I received a healthy salary, benefits, profit sharing, 401k matching, and either a % of profits or a bonus based on my trading performance. I can honestly say that the key to trading is to learn from the best in the industry. To be an apprentice of sorts for however long it takes. Then when you start trading there is an entirely different learning curve. I would highly recommend applying to a firm on the list above (most are not hiring at the moment but you might as well give it a shot). When you are learning you need that salary. While I could easily trade on my own (and have) leverage and ability to access a ton of capital is paramount in a market environment as crazy as this one. There is a ton of opportunity right now, but I would not want to make 100% on the capital I can use on my own, id rather make a much lesser % on 10x that capital...period. When firm's give you a salary when you are an apprentice, its a loan of sorts in that they expect you to add value and be profitable for them in the future. When you get a salary as a trader at that firm, its more a token of trust and faith, and in the end your bonus will factor in the money you were already paid. As a rule, most of the firms above (including my own) is either looking for young fresh college grads or MBAs with excellent grades from a top tier university or experience traders with a track record of success. Best of luck to all.

 

[dr_sean]

Some people are such idiots in this forum. They act as if they speak gospel when really everyone's situation is different. I have been a prop trader for 3 of the groups on this list (three of the best ones in my honest opinion. I am also involved in my current firm's recruiting efforts. At all 3 of the places I received a healthy salary, benefits, profit sharing, 401k matching, and either a % of profits or a bonus based on my trading performance. I can honestly say that the key to trading is to learn from the best in the industry. To be an apprentice of sorts for however long it takes. Then when you start trading there is an entirely different learning curve. I would highly recommend applying to a firm on the list above (most are not hiring at the moment but you might as well give it a shot). When you are learning you need that salary. While I could easily trade on my own (and have) leverage and ability to access a ton of capital is paramount in a market environment as crazy as this one. There is a ton of opportunity right now, but I would not want to make 100% on the capital I can use on my own, id rather make a much lesser % on 10x that capital...period. When firm's give you a salary when you are an apprentice, its a loan of sorts in that they expect you to add value and be profitable for them in the future. When you get a salary as a trader at that firm, its more a token of trust and faith, and in the end your bonus will factor in the money you were already paid. As a rule, most of the firms above (including my own) is either looking for young fresh college grads or MBAs with excellent grades from a top tier university or experience traders with a track record of success. Best of luck to all.

Well put. The point I've been trying to make--the point that greens HAS made--and the point that other posters (who I'd be willing to bet have never been a salaried trader) is that, save those who have access to an incredibly large amount of capital, and an incredibly professional technology infrastructure, invidual traders simply cannot and do not compete with professionals.

 

[irishmaybe]

as one of the recent grads i appreciate both arguments

 

[JKK]

here is a little working list of salary paying US firms (pretty much all options market makers)

Spot Trading (prop trading pays a salary, upstairs)
Jump Trading (prop trading pays a salary, upstairs)
Infinium Capital (CBOE equity, index, CME financial & ag, on floor & upstairs)
Wolverine (CBOE equity & index market making, CME, on floor & upstairs)
Group One (CBOE equity market making, on floor)
Jane Street Capital (does equity market making as well as pairs trades / they allege "stat arb" wrongly, on floor & upstairs)
Ronin (market making w/ some prop mixed in I think, not positive they start you on a salary that but I believe so, on floor & upstairs)
Belvedere (SPX, OEX market making, on floor)
Transmarket (CME fixed income market making, upstairs)
Susquehanna (CBOE equity market making, ETF market making, on floor & upstairs)
IMC (CBOE equity & index market making on floor & upstairs)
Optiver (CBOE equity & index market making all upstairs)
Peak6 (CBOE equity market making all upstairs)
Chicago Trading Co. (CBOE & CME equity & index market making on floor & upstairs)
Liquid Capital (US & UK, in US, CBOE & CME index market making on floor & upstairs)
Blue Capital (CBOE SPX, RUT, OEX market making on floor, some upstairs prop, not sure if they are hiring new guys)
KC Co II (CME index market making on floor & upstairs, again not sure they are hiring new guys)
Everest (CBOE equity mm on floor, no web-site that I know of)
Knight Capital (don't know how many are sales-traders v. market makers, upstairs)
Bear Wagner (NYSE specialist)
Oscar Gruss & Son (same)
GFI (again sales trading mostly, but know some guys do executions, upstairs)
First New York (prop gig no MM, but pays a salary, upstairs)

Good list thx

 

[guardiangel]

i agree... amazing list... been looking for a post like that for a long time... :cheesy::clap:


however one thing that puzzles me, spot and jump trading, well atleast on their website mainly post job openings for programmers and i don't see anything associated with prop trading on their website. kinda confused

 

[trend_trader]

Best prop firms in US?

I agree as well - great list. Which ones are the best?

 

[guardiangel]

trend, i suggest u do research on the firms. some of them don't hire prop anymore and some just aren't hiring traders for now. and some make u go thru crazy math tests...
heh...