Mathemagician
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spanish89
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ALoha harrymonk,
I think me and you can have alot to talk about as you seem kinda similar to me, although your slightly richer than me, but my demo trading is quite alot more sucessful thn yours.
Im only demoing too at mo, trying to get a job in a firm so can trade with their money instead, as i lost about £1000 creditcard money in 3weeks when i 1st started spread betting 3months ago.
I gtg in rush but send me msg if you want to chat more or talk on msn
I think me and you can have alot to talk about as you seem kinda similar to me, although your slightly richer than me, but my demo trading is quite alot more sucessful thn yours.
Im only demoing too at mo, trying to get a job in a firm so can trade with their money instead, as i lost about £1000 creditcard money in 3weeks when i 1st started spread betting 3months ago.
I gtg in rush but send me msg if you want to chat more or talk on msn
mp6140
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hey paul
in any trade there is an "optimum" entry point -- usually a retrace from support and resistance and while its really "grand" to get in at the first pip, it is certainly not necessary when were talking about a move on anything over a 5 min chart.
BUT, if you miss your exit point, you CAN spin off into the heavens, and that point might not be hit again that day, week or month !
In this way, during the move, one can enter ANYWHERE they wish, but if you dont get out when you HAVE to get out, you be in trouble !
mp
Hi MP.
I understand what you are saying (i think), but to me it all sounds a bit sloppy, i'm not saying that you are a sloppy trader, i just feel that you are bending your arguement to fit the 'exits are more important' theory.
The 'exits are more important' team seem to use all kinds of theory to back up their views. The reality of a trade is the entry, everything else is just probable. So, the better the entry the better the probability and profitability, and if a trader has trouble finding or recognising a high probability entry then how can they argue about exits as being the most important?
Nothing personal meant here Mp, just a conflict of ideologies i suppose.
mp6140
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NOTHING taken paul --- perhaps i can explain better.
if we imagine a short entry presents itself on the H1 chart, towards the end of the evening (these, and the H4 charts are how i trade while i sleep -- i just enter a trade and leave it with my set tp points)
but anyway, weve seen what appears to be a great short trade, but 2 sisters of stunning proportions and looks barge into your home (we shall assume youre single for the moment) and DISTRACT you completely from your trading !
ok, youre not single, but your wife had to go to Quatamala to help her older sister develop a banana plantation, leaving you alone and lonely for a few years !
so a few hours later, perhaps a tad tired, they leave and you notice the trade YOU HAVENT TAKEN YET !
OMG says you, and peering at the chart you see theres still 35 pips to go before support, so you ENTER, even though its a few hours "late" for the "optimum" point !
assuming youve followed my instructions and are using the s+r overlays and your fibs, and taking into consideration the price action that has gone before, you SET YOUR TP and seek the comfort of your own bed, now solitary !
waking in the morning, a rested and new man, you take a look at your SHORT position and low and behold, you HIT THE TP right at the reversal point !!
CONGRATULATIONS BIG GUY --- youre a hell of a good trader !!!!
AND IT DIDNT MATTER WHERE YOU ENTERED !!!
SEE WHAT I MEAN !
mp
Mathemagician
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Is it really so hard to understand that the entries and exits are of equal importance? A tick gained/lost on entry is equal in value to a tick gained/lost on exit. That's the bottom line. Why create some kind of artificial divide?
jj
jj
Now i see!
Good trading, Mp!
PS. Those sisters were fantastic! ...they even knew how to trade! They're booked in for next week.
fifty2aces
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mp - while I agree exits are important, that's a pretty false analogy - you're pretty much arguing that being slightly inaccurate in your entry is not as bad as completely messing up your exit. Obviously this is true, but I think the point Paul was making was slightly different.
You say it didn't matter where you entered, but in actual fact, you were just a bit late getting in on a valid entry. Similarly, it wouldn't be too bad to mess up an exit, provided you weren't too far off.
I think entries and exits are both important, and without taking both into account, you can't properly determine risk/reward, and therefore your edge.
You say it didn't matter where you entered, but in actual fact, you were just a bit late getting in on a valid entry. Similarly, it wouldn't be too bad to mess up an exit, provided you weren't too far off.
I think entries and exits are both important, and without taking both into account, you can't properly determine risk/reward, and therefore your edge.
It's the entry that is definative. A stop defines face value risk and a negative exit/reward. Where does that leave the positive exit?
Stops are an exit, is it important that they are kept from being hit? The aim of a good entry is to avoid the stop....no?
So you need to hit the positive exit, but where is it? And more importantly, is it realistic in terms of your entry price, yes, your entry price, not your mathamatical ratio you've made up as 2:1 or 3:1 R:R. ( Christ! what about the 'No Stop' lot)
So the whole trade is hinged around the bloody entry!!!!!!!!!!!
Stops are an exit, is it important that they are kept from being hit? The aim of a good entry is to avoid the stop....no?
So you need to hit the positive exit, but where is it? And more importantly, is it realistic in terms of your entry price, yes, your entry price, not your mathamatical ratio you've made up as 2:1 or 3:1 R:R. ( Christ! what about the 'No Stop' lot)
So the whole trade is hinged around the bloody entry!!!!!!!!!!!
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mp6140
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Mp -- Perhaps Theres Another Way Of Saying It !
OK, heres how this humble trader partakes of this great game ----
what youre telling me is THEORY, and what im talking about is REALITY --
OFTEN, we miss the beginning of a trade, for anyone of uncountable reasons, BUT IF WE ARE IN THE TRADE, then the EXIT is the ONLY thing of IMPORTANCE TO US !
If we enter at the ABSOLUTE PERFECT POINT, then the EXIT is STILL OF MAXIMUM IMPORTANCE TO US.
given that in BOTH these situations, the EXIT is always considered impt and that the ENTRANCE CAN BE CORRECT OR NOT "CORRECT", it is obvious, by definition, that the EXIT is more important, since it serves both types of entries !
ANY method of trading which uses stops or voodoo to exit is simply intensely foolish to me, and to that end i once set up a $250 demo for a group i was teaching --- the purpose being to show what one could earn with that small an equity stake.
While i was proud of the increases made, what one member pointed out was that EACH AND EVERY EXIT i made was EXACTLY at the point the currency reversed and moved away from its prior trend. To use a stop, which could give away ANY number of earned pips is sacrilage to me --- to use an ma cross, which always gives away profit, is sacrilage to me --- to do anything that DOES NOT NAIL THE EXACT PRICE is sacrilage to me !
BECAUSE I AM A TRADER, and years it is to have earned that title, and if i cant tell where a price is going, in any timeframe, then i do not deserve the title !
I DO NOT use STOPLOSSES, WHICH I DO NOT ADVISE NEWBS TO TRY, so i never get "stopped" out of a trade and consider that my profit point ---- I place my tp and often simply go to sleep, waking in the morning with my profit !
what youre telling me is you DONT KNOW HOW to figure the PERFECT tp point and therefore CANT DO IT, so you count on a stop loss (which can lose you an awful lot on the exit point) to get you out of a trade !
THAT IS SIMPLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND THE ONES WHO TRADE WITH ME !
enjoy and learn well
mp
OK, heres how this humble trader partakes of this great game ----
what youre telling me is THEORY, and what im talking about is REALITY --
OFTEN, we miss the beginning of a trade, for anyone of uncountable reasons, BUT IF WE ARE IN THE TRADE, then the EXIT is the ONLY thing of IMPORTANCE TO US !
If we enter at the ABSOLUTE PERFECT POINT, then the EXIT is STILL OF MAXIMUM IMPORTANCE TO US.
given that in BOTH these situations, the EXIT is always considered impt and that the ENTRANCE CAN BE CORRECT OR NOT "CORRECT", it is obvious, by definition, that the EXIT is more important, since it serves both types of entries !
ANY method of trading which uses stops or voodoo to exit is simply intensely foolish to me, and to that end i once set up a $250 demo for a group i was teaching --- the purpose being to show what one could earn with that small an equity stake.
While i was proud of the increases made, what one member pointed out was that EACH AND EVERY EXIT i made was EXACTLY at the point the currency reversed and moved away from its prior trend. To use a stop, which could give away ANY number of earned pips is sacrilage to me --- to use an ma cross, which always gives away profit, is sacrilage to me --- to do anything that DOES NOT NAIL THE EXACT PRICE is sacrilage to me !
BECAUSE I AM A TRADER, and years it is to have earned that title, and if i cant tell where a price is going, in any timeframe, then i do not deserve the title !
I DO NOT use STOPLOSSES, WHICH I DO NOT ADVISE NEWBS TO TRY, so i never get "stopped" out of a trade and consider that my profit point ---- I place my tp and often simply go to sleep, waking in the morning with my profit !
what youre telling me is you DONT KNOW HOW to figure the PERFECT tp point and therefore CANT DO IT, so you count on a stop loss (which can lose you an awful lot on the exit point) to get you out of a trade !
THAT IS SIMPLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND THE ONES WHO TRADE WITH ME !
enjoy and learn well
mp
What is the 'begining' of a trade, that you may miss, for all sorts of reasons....taking the dog out, taxing the car, unblocking the sink,...all this going on at the begining of a trade?
Have you ever missed a trade whilst mowing the lawn? (that's not metaphor, by the way, i don't mean to be rude)
Are all your orders, manual market?
Have you ever missed a trade whilst mowing the lawn? (that's not metaphor, by the way, i don't mean to be rude)
Are all your orders, manual market?
mp6140
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Ive prob had em all, but not yet the Nuclear explosion --- THAT would get my attention !
treat each "arrow" as the "optimum" or "perfect" entry point !
all my orders are manual, with a lot at market, but not the exits --- those are almost always "limit orders", although i may exit a trade manually for some reason, but NEVER where i wouldnt place a limit order (i often place a limit order, especially after 5pm edt here in the states, WELL BELOW my actual tp point --- if the mm is gonna "headfake" me, then i can return the favor --- unfortunately i have to exit manually or lose the exit !)
mp
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Ok, ok, ok. I can't see any of this 'really' benefitting myself. Let's call it a draw. No more for me, and hopefully we can still be ammicable?
What says you, Mp?
mp6140
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paul ----- bobala !
i was just entering into a theoretical discussion --- who knows, next week i might take the opposite side to what i took this time !
exits are where the profit lives or is lost, imho --- but its of no real matter this way or that, as long as i simply trade and can afford the many sister acts i require for my health during the week !
now, why does it not affect you ---- you one of those one minute chart flippers ?
LOL
mp
Mp,
1min, 15min or 1hr....it doesn't matter, It's all about seeing value (cheesey or what). If a trader can't see it (value) sub 5 mins, it doesn't mean that they are a dunce or a bit slow, it just means that they are not as talented or as natural at spotting value within the market at that TF, as the other trader may be.
Here's the crazy bit...
There are 'non intraday' traders on here who openly 'rubbish' BO strats, and yet, their style and TF is dependant on price breaking into and out of multiple critical prices and 'zones'.
But still, it's a laff.
Goodnight, Mp.
1min, 15min or 1hr....it doesn't matter, It's all about seeing value (cheesey or what). If a trader can't see it (value) sub 5 mins, it doesn't mean that they are a dunce or a bit slow, it just means that they are not as talented or as natural at spotting value within the market at that TF, as the other trader may be.
Here's the crazy bit...
There are 'non intraday' traders on here who openly 'rubbish' BO strats, and yet, their style and TF is dependant on price breaking into and out of multiple critical prices and 'zones'.
But still, it's a laff.
Goodnight, Mp.
Chorlton
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The point I was trying to make is that when it comes to developing ones strategy sufficient time should also be given to developing the Exit Condition AND the Money Management / Position Sizing Rules. Maybe I should have re-worded my original comments but I believed the underlying message I was trying to convey was clear. Apologies if it wasn't.
I have known a few people who started out in Trading spending numerous amounts of time developing the "perfect" entry. Once they had believed they had found this they felt they were ready to start trading.
Little time was given to developing the exit condition. When I suggested that they should spend a similar amount of time looking at different type of exits, they didn't seem so excited as they just wanted to start trading. Consequently, they would normally just quickly pluck one idea from the latest book they were reading and simply use that!!! The same went for Money Management / Position Sizing. When asked what they intended to use for risk most would say "err.. 3-5%" When I asked why they chose that value, the replies were normally along the lines of "read it in a book" , "thats about the same amount as others use....", etc, etc.
IMO Anyone can enter a position. The "key" to successful & profitable trading is how one manages the position (good or bad) once in the trade, and this is heavily reliant of the exit condition & the risk employed on that trade.
I do believe the Entry is important (as obviously without one we don't have a trade) but as the timeframe being traded increases this element is less critical IMO. One of the people (whom I have mentioned above) was developing a EOD strategy and from memory the average holding period was around 6-12mths. However, he would spend the majority of his time trying to find that "perfect" entry and as such neglected the other elements. Again, from memory, he was intending to use a % stop simply because it had been mentioned in one of his books and as a result felt it was a good choice, although he eventually realised he was giving back a lot of the profit.
At the end of the day I don't want to get into any form of argument with anyone about this as obviously different people have different views on this topic.
All I can say is, based on my OWN experiences, if ones focuses more time (or at the very least an equal amount) on Exits & Money Management they may become pleasantly surprised at the overall performance of their strategies.
Good Luck to all,
Chorlton
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Morning Chorlton.
I agree with your sentiment, good post. There was no need to apologise, you're too polite, i suppose it's all just talk at the EOD.
harrymonk
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Hi guys, thanks.
Just to clarify. I was kind of trying to be slightly humorous and poking fun at myself... in the fact of me being a newb and overtrading being quite easy, therefore my entry to a trade not being a problem due to lack of control....anyway...thanks for all the extra info.
I also find it interesting about the lack of stop loss, unfortunately for me due to lack of being able to check prices sometimes for up to 8hrs in a day and sometimes just as sensitive information might be being released I feel I have little choice but to use the stop loss.
This is just my own situation though and when I have a whole day to watch the markets, I normally just use a mental stop loss. One of the other reasons I have had large spaces for stops has been because of the occasional spikes in the sb prices.
I have been thinking more about my trading style now and think I might just try to go back to trading EOD data and go back to using paper trading until I have a little more time to devote to the markets and maybe a little more capital.
Thanks again for all your help.
Just to clarify. I was kind of trying to be slightly humorous and poking fun at myself... in the fact of me being a newb and overtrading being quite easy, therefore my entry to a trade not being a problem due to lack of control....anyway...thanks for all the extra info.
I also find it interesting about the lack of stop loss, unfortunately for me due to lack of being able to check prices sometimes for up to 8hrs in a day and sometimes just as sensitive information might be being released I feel I have little choice but to use the stop loss.
This is just my own situation though and when I have a whole day to watch the markets, I normally just use a mental stop loss. One of the other reasons I have had large spaces for stops has been because of the occasional spikes in the sb prices.
I have been thinking more about my trading style now and think I might just try to go back to trading EOD data and go back to using paper trading until I have a little more time to devote to the markets and maybe a little more capital.
Thanks again for all your help.
Hi,
I have been paper trading and simulation trading on and off for a few years, over the last year I have tried to take it more seriously and have been live trading almost daily when I have the time.
I have blown 2 accounts so far, and I know it was due to bad risk management, and it is something I am working on. The thing I would like to know is what is a good sized account to start with if you're spreadbetting.
My first account was £500 (which I put an extra £500 into to keep a trade open) that account lasted me about 1 month
My last account I only put £500 it lasted about 3 months this time, I kind of realised also that by betting £5 a point and leaving a 100 pt gap wiped out half my account on 2 trades ( I had built up the account by then)....so my question, although aimed at account size might also be a good risk size on the account.
At present I am saving up for my next account, so anything more than £3,000 would take me more than a year to get up and running.
Thanks
How much do you need?
Well, since i and others have slightly derailed your thread, i think it's only fair that maybe i should try to get it back on track.
Basically this question revolves around you, how competent you are, and how complex your strat is based on your competentcy and capital, this will give you an 'expectancy' over time.
So, there you have it. Now go and learn.
mp6140
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MP -- bottom line is hes still just a newb
and we cant forget it
paul has stated for you to learn, and learn YOU MUST because theres lions and tigers and sharks out there, not to forget the occassional wicked witch --- forex (all trading) is a process of learning to understand and then understanding whats happening and then profiting from it.
i fully believe ANYONE can learn to trade, although there will always be a top and bottom 10% with the vast majority bouncing around in the middle cause thats just the way it is with everything in this world !
TRADING is like anything else (and why not ?) --- you get out of it what you put into it and thats the bottom line, even though its old fashioned thinking.
aint no "get rich quick" thingie with trading, no matter WHAT the advertising says -- its a game of the placing of a wager on a situation whose outcome is decided by learnable movements and momentum and observable patterns of price movement (i copied that from another thread i was posting on) and you LEARN first and TRADE later !
so as paul stated --- go yee forth and become learned weedhopper ---- when the student is ready, the fortunes will appear ! (maybe)
mp
and we cant forget it
paul has stated for you to learn, and learn YOU MUST because theres lions and tigers and sharks out there, not to forget the occassional wicked witch --- forex (all trading) is a process of learning to understand and then understanding whats happening and then profiting from it.
i fully believe ANYONE can learn to trade, although there will always be a top and bottom 10% with the vast majority bouncing around in the middle cause thats just the way it is with everything in this world !
TRADING is like anything else (and why not ?) --- you get out of it what you put into it and thats the bottom line, even though its old fashioned thinking.
aint no "get rich quick" thingie with trading, no matter WHAT the advertising says -- its a game of the placing of a wager on a situation whose outcome is decided by learnable movements and momentum and observable patterns of price movement (i copied that from another thread i was posting on) and you LEARN first and TRADE later !
so as paul stated --- go yee forth and become learned weedhopper ---- when the student is ready, the fortunes will appear ! (maybe)
mp
