What SB FIRMS do not want you to know.

stevespray

Experienced member
1,289 154
Steve - I know you have had issues in the past with SB companies; do you still use any?

One or two. Most mess you about once you build up a reasonable balance or start making withdrawals. Had a lot of success on grey markets a few years back which these firms most definately do not like. Once you get identified it becomes more difficult. Various firms WILL play games no question.

You been up t much?

Steve.
 

Lord Flasheart

Legendary member
9,794 975
What do you call a resonable amount and can you explain how much you made etc before things started going wrong, Thanks
 

KillPhil08

Experienced member
1,860 381
Code:
Biggest wall of text I've seen on T2W. No idea if i've delete all duplicates nor if I have deleted important paragraphs.

I hope your betting is more consistent than this posts format. Time for topgear.

[URL="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zdVg08h5r_E&NR=1"]![/URL]

What SB FIRMS do not want you to know!

Read This before doing another trade.​

What the spread betting companies don't want you to know:
Spread Betting in itself isn't evil and can be lucrative if used properly but you also have to be keep in mind that the spread betting industry is still in its infancy with new providers still entering the field. The following article tries to discuss all the bad experiences that have been reported over the past years.

Gambling or Trading?

The thing that I can never get my head around - one thing that just about everyone agrees on -: 85% of traders lose money! Even 85% of fund managers, with vast resources, fail to beat the index. And the spread betting companies benefit from this


1) They could lay off the bets:
This is expensive for them and assumes they can lay off the bet. My guess is that they don't generally do this other than to make sure all bets as a whole are within risk tolerances. Some spread betting firms have Then come along the 10%-15% who make consistent and substantial gains - a rare breed (we all agree?). If you run a spread betting company and face this situation with a large number of small losers and a small number of very big consistent winners you would face a dilemma on how to deal with the 'suckers'however publicly stated that they net off the trades internally and either carry the risk or hedge only the net exposure. Obviously, it's a lot cheaper/easier for them to hedge just the net risk than hedging every single position.

2) They could side with you:
I call this 'front running' or 'matching the trades' and happens in 'real' markets too; after all, you've got the stats to back up that their system is profitable, rather than an advertising sales pitch.

3) Normal trade size restrictions limit the spread betters exposure to very successful traders/strategies thus preventing a trader ever to make a 'large' amount of money. However, the press story about "The Plumber" of around a year ago implied that he was running a spread bet of £ several thousand per point.

4) Checking the profitability of instrument lines:
If there are unprofitable instruments (meaning customers are finding real edges against the house) they would stop trading that instrument or adjust their pricing model (especially where there is no off setting market) .

5) Review a customer's profitability over time and place restrictions on successful traders. Whilst there has been some evidence of this it doesn't seem to be widespread otherwise the Internet boards would be full of traders complaining although there's plenty of anecdotal evidence.

6) High Gearing/Leverage = High Risk
No doubt leverage is a great thing if you know what you are doing - but it is perilous if you don't have a clue. Few people care to admit to themselves that they don't know what they are doing.

To fully understand this we need to examine past history because events and circumstances have a tendency of repeating themselves in time. The evolution of spread betting is very similar to the evolution of the 'Bucket Shops' on America's East Coast in the late 1800's. I suggest that everybody has a read about Jessie L Livermore and his experiences with the 'Bucket Shops' in the late 1800's/ early 1900's. Direct comparisons can be made between the modern day spreadbetting Companies and the Bucket Shops. It's a similar pattern of evolution which is simply taking place 100 years later. It is another example of a cycle repeating itself.

In essence these shops would hedge very little if anything. They knew that their 'products' offered such huge leverage. The net result was that the punters had the odds stacked massively against them - a small move in the market against the punter would often result in the loss of his / her entire pot. That's why GOOD MONEY MANAGEMENT and CAPITAL PRESERVATION are so important!! For one if you lose your capital your can't spread bet any more or can only bet very small amounts. And second if you lose 50% of your account, you've got to make 100% just to get back to even.


Do Spread Betting firms really hedge?

A recent article on Investors Chronicle mentioned how one very active spread better started encountering trading restrictions and later.
As a better-than-average trader, he did not fit into the normal mould of a loser, and yet he still liked to bet small - between £1 and £10 a point. After placing a £2-a-point position with one leading company just after markets open every morning - and winning most of the time, at market opening times - he suddenly found that the spread-betting company no longer quoted Nikkei prices for the first five or 10 minutes of the trading session.

This account clearly presented a problem for the company concerned. Too small to hedge (as the Nikkei contract is bigger than £1 a point), the account was showing a consistent ability to win. The spread-betting company simply used its power to decide what prices to quote, and when, and then ceased to make a market during the time period concerned. Another firm stopped him trading via the internet after a large monthly gain. This highlights a fundamental problem with spread betting.

Cases like the one mentioned above are not uncommon. Some of the spreadbetting companies do not hedge all of their positions. This means that your win is their loss. It could well be that the case highlighted above is based on someone who was trading a 'grey market' (for those people who don't understand the term, a 'grey market', it is a market which is made entirely by the spread betting company. This could be an index which is quoted 'out of hours' for example). Therefore it is possible that the customer's position simply could not be hedged. This means that they assume the full risk. Therefore if someone is very good at calling a particular market then it becomes financially sensible for the quoting company to move the goal posts slightly until the customer's advantage is lost. The experienced dealer knows that there are several ways of 'moving the goal posts'. Refusing orders or delaying executions are just simple examples of a company gaining an unfair advantage over a customer. The problem for the customer is explaining that situation to the regulatory authority in a manner which they will understand.

There are also a number of other points:
The companies which offer very tight spreads would find it more or less impossible to make any money if they hedged positions. Quite often the companies quote is the same as the underlying market. It is also possible that they may not be able to hedge quickly enough. Some traders for example are experts at reading L2 in certain stocks. Quite often they will spot a cascading price and dive in so quickly that quite often it is not possible for the company to take a similar position in the time available. By that I mean that in the time it takes for the punter to open his bet the position is already showing a breakeven or a profit. This is where the problem lies when a spreadbetting company takes on an experienced market participant who trades in such a manner. He or she may be an expert in only a few markets which they watch for many hours a day and also monitor with expensive software. The spread betting company however makes thousands of different prices and can not therefore be an expert in them all. The net result is that, in some cases, the company finds it necessary to manually process certain customer's orders in certain markets. This manual process adds time to execution which gives them time to inspect the order. For example, if an 'OBL has been found' rumour broke then it would be 'sensible' for a certain company to slow down its order flow in many of its markets purely because the market would suddenly make a very easy long. I hope that you get the picture. The bottom line is that split second timing can, in certain cases, make the difference between a successful trade and a losing one. The spreadbetting companies are very aware of that.

I think it was the Chairman of IGIndex who a couple of years ago admitted that they didn't lay bets off because it was just too expensive to do. He made a public statement to this effect (a friend of Gerald Ratner perhaps?). Effectively they take a view of the market each day and adjust their quotes accordingly in order to minimise damage and maximise profit. That is a summary of what I believe he said.

Execution delays:
A number of the books written about Livermore mention how the bucket shops acted to protect their interests when he started to make money from them. Is it any different today? Widening of the spreads and delays in order execution are tricks which were played by the bucket shops 120 years ago. If we are honest then we know that, in this computer driven world which we now live, it is possible to execute customer's orders electronically in a fraction of a second. Ask yourself why many of these companies still route certain orders or customers through a manual dealing procedure? These companies are fully aware that an introduction of a delay gives them a chance to observe movements within the market which were subsequent to the order being placed - of course they can then use these 'subsequent movements' to determine the financial viability of the submitted order.

My own personal view is that the different companies will note your trading style and that can determine what kind of service you receive. If you scalp trade effectively (scalpers attempt to 'scalp' i.e. extract profits from small price movements using large position sizes) then you will often upset the spreadbetting companies, I know companies will argue this but that is my experience and therefore my view. More than a year ago I had a dispute IG Index which is evidence of that. IG are happy to send out advertising literature stating that 'prices are always live and tradable' and that 'the price you see is the price you get' - this is in order to attract customers to their platform. However, as you become a better trader and win money in very short time-frames you may start to get treated differently. In my case it reached a point where orders were taking almost a minute to get processed and orders were being refused based on price movements within that time.

This clearly isn't the service that they clearly advertise and nor is it what the terms and conditions say will happen to your order once it is received. Thereby, swing trading and position trading strategies are better suitable for spread betting than scalping strategies.The bet was for £80 per point. I've bet at that size many times and its never been a problem. I would however mention that the time it takes to process my bets had increased from about 3 seconds to 40 odd seconds. It seems to me like they started to monitor exactly what I was doing by manually checking each bet. However the dealer has admitted that he only decided that his price on Dow needed reviewing after my instructions to close were known to him. As he is at liberty to swing his market based on his order book then it is clear that a conflict of interests exists if they are allowed to have 'seconds thoughts" once they have priced and advertised their market prices.

Obviously in this case the dealer rejected the order based on what he decided his market was after he had re-priced it, however the T&C act to protect customers from this type of situation by clear stating that the reasons for rejections based on incorrect prices should be based on prices AT THE TIME THE ORDER IS SUBMITTED. In my case the price I submitted was correct at the time I submitted it and only became incorrect with the passing of time (almost 1 minute) but IG ignored this fact because it suited them to do so.

Execution delays allow spread betting companies to see if the market is moving in a manner favourable to them or the customer, if the move favours them they simply accept the order, if it favours the punter they refuse the order on the grounds that "the price is no longer valid". This type of sharp practice does go on (we are referring to scalp trading here) and it does conflict directly with the service that companies actually advertise. There is only one reason in the world of spreadbetting why companies would advertise "the price you see is the price you get" and that is to suggest to customers that their service is in some way superior because of the ability to grab prices quickly. The fact is that when push comes to shove they claim that they have no obligation to standby anything they advertise, be it the type of service (ie WYSIWYG) or the prices. There are laws which are supposed to protect consumers from this type of rogue practice and the FSA has recently increased its vigilance and monitoring of financial promotions.

The fact is that computers can match and process deals far quicker than the human intervention that many of the spreadbetting companies use. Computers are also much cheaper, don't demand a salary and don't take lunch breaks. Staff are paid to process orders because it is financially viable for them to do so. Experienced customers will always be able to take advantage of certain market conditions if they are allowed to do so. By this I mean that fast execution does, under certain circumstances, benefit the customer which is of course to the detriment of the company offering the market.
This is where the delay in execution is particularly useful to the spreadbetting company. While your order is waiting to be executed the dealer effectively has the gift of hindsight in deciding whether to allow your order to pass at the originally quoted level. In effect this advantage, over a period of time, has the effect of making the spread slightly larger than is quoted. The obvious result is an increase in the cost of trading which is a cost shouldered purely by the customer.

And that's why phone dealing can turn convenient here - if you deal on the Internet and you start getting delays on the screen price, if they don't like it , it gives them time to change it whereas on the phone, the dealers can't do that unless they want to risk lying barefaced over a tape recorder.

Re-Quotes
If the quoted prices are honoured by the spread betting company which is usual in normal markets, all is well but trouble starts when the market has moved away from the quoted price and the dealer decides to reject your trade, and 're-quotes' you a new price.

This happens regularly with CMC and there is no point in pretending that it does not. Sadly it seems that the more successful the trader is, the more it happens (shares and indices). Traders can only talk about their own experiences and with CMC it is not a case of seeking to place the blame elsewhere. IG Index on the other hand do not carry out such practices (in my experience) but their spreads/charges are much higher.
One could say that execution delays shouldn't do much harm if your strategy is right and your finger quick. However for example, with CMC at times even with fastest finger your attempted trade will only be accepted if it is going against you. Actual experience not once, twice, thrice but several times:

Once the mouse is clicked the order screen is frozen, no more trades can be placed, may eventually go through only if price as moved against me, Otherwise a re-quote.
Mouse clicked, order screen stays yellow, theoretically giving me a option to cancel the order as well as an option for CMC to refuse the trade. If the price moves against me try to cancel -no luck trade accepted. Otherwise the screen stays yellow till the inevitable re-quote.

Trade accepted, subsequently cancelled -reason bad price. Only the opening trade cancelled, closing trade stays valid. Had to have a 10 mins discussion before no profit/loss situation was restored- only on one occasion.

CMC, as market makers, told me that they will not accept an order for 1000 Abbey National (FTSE 100 CO) as there were no buyers. Placed limit order, price reached the limit order - no fill. When queried got a similar response, however, all of a sudden got filled, and guess what within seconds the price moved in the right direction by several pence. Forget the details, but it was about 10 to 15 pence.

Finally, the above tactics were experienced with 80, 25, 5 and even 1 Dow contract.
None of the above is made up or is sour grapes actual practical experience.

Skewed Spreads
One practice (which, again, is thankfully less common now than it was a few years ago) is to skew the spread in the direction of the market move. In other words, if the market is trending rapidly down, most people are selling, so, although the spread may be the same, the prices quoted will be that much lower than in the real market, as most people would be selling into a down move. As soon as the market looks like it's going to recover, the skew is switched around the other way. This can shave several points off a client's profit. However, it can backfire in that not only does it upset customers by appearing unfair, but those able to take the opposite trade fast enough can squeeze some extra profit out of the trade.

Barred
Yes! Its not unheard of that accounts be closed for 'winning too much'- the account is not usually closed straightaway but the behaviour of the broker can become (in rare cases) less than pleasant if the bets placed are costing the spread-betting company large sums of money; this could happen if the instrument the client is trading on cannot be easily hedged by the spread betting provider. I refer this as closing accounts with grace hehe and I suppose having your account closed is really a compliment. However, we don't support firms that close down winning accounts so for this reason we will not hesitate to shame such behaviour.

Timeouts

Even worse than a re-quote is a 'timeout'. Some online systems have an hourglass icon, which spins away for what seems like an eon (from a few seconds to a minute or more). By the time you realise that nothing is going to happen, and you call the dealer hotline, it's up to the dealer whether you get the price you were originally quoted. Some companies put a high premium on customer satisfaction, and will give you your original quoted price, while others just quote the market at the time.

So how to get the insight without the pain?

So where do you get the insight on the various providers without going to the expense of opening an account with all the different spread-betting companies? Most providers offer a demo account to try their dealing platform although this doesn't guarantee that your executions will be dealt in the same way as with a real money account. But remember demo trading can only do so much, it is when real money is on the line where the markets bring out every emotional defect you have. Risk small capital so you can stay in the game long enough to learn and demo trade using market orders, go for the longer trades and do not scalp. The shorter your timeframe the more you'll compete with professionals and anyhow you're end up irking the spread betting dealers if you are successful as its difficult for a spread betting company to offset your exposure for very short trading timeframes. And you could always visit sites like this one and check our regular reviews about the different providers. If you ask me which spread betting to recommend I would say that most are pretty good but you should look for brokers that quote the tightest spreads combined with good software which is reliable, especially when the markets get volatile. Personally I've been using Capital Spreads for over a year now and am still a happy camper.

OK, finally the good news - things have improved!

The penetration of the Spread Betting companies is most probably reaching maturity. It is unlikely that there is a completely new batch of clients ready to tap into, so in the first decade of the 21st century the financial spread betting companies are likely to concentrate on innovation of products and services.

Most of the so called 'incidents' mentioned above are a thing of the past. Things have vastly improved over the last few years. Competition has lowered spreads significantly and the quality of service is improving all the time. For example, 'rolling' bets have been introduced at many spread-betting companies recently. They have the same low spreads as the 'daily' bet (which is an intra-day bet that has to be closed by the end of that day's session), but can be rolled over to the next day with a small charge being made for the rollover. This bridges the gap between a daily bet (that expires at the end of that day), and the larger spread paid for a bet that expires several weeks or months hence.

Companies that have, in the past, resorted to certain sharp practices appear to be doing it rarely now, as it clearly isn't in their interests to upset their customers, and effectively chase them away to firms which treat their customers more equitably. All the big spread betting and cfd firms these days are increasingly seeing professional traders register and deposit substantial six-figure sums because they're finally making the move away from other trading methods towards better regulation, smaller spreads and NO TAX. Also, where can you speculate in almost any financial, commodity or currency market worldwide, within the one account!? If I wake up one morning feeling bullish on the Pound or bearish on gold and I can take immediate action. But with a traditional stockbroker or even a futures trader this is often difficult because they won't be set-up for that kind of business. In effect you may find yourself having to open accounts with different brokers to trade different products.

To be honest Direct Market Access attracted me at first, all excited about leaving orders on the underlying, then I suddenly realized I was paying through the nose for it and that you are being squeezed into placing larger trades. I have always stuck to spread betting because nowadays the spreads are so tight and the all round packages are generally very good and improving all the time. In a nutshell, the tax free element and leverage outweigh all other factors for me. Sure one day I will have to answer the sole income question, though I have some ideas as to how I could work around this. The path that a successful trader takes is one of continual evolution and I would re-evaluate this situation if something really nasty happened. For now I'm making steady and consistent if modest gains which although far from the millions of pounds which some top traders claim to have made are still a welcome supplement to my income
a spreadbetters lament

They slipped me again, I couldn’t get out
it went the wrong way, the news was leaked out
the broker is bent, the prices are wrong
they took all my rentGambling or Trading?
The thing that I can never get my head around - one thing that just about everyone agrees on -: 85% of traders lose money! Even 85% of fund managers, with vast resources, fail to beat the index. And the spread betting companies benefit from this

In essence these shops would hedge very little if anything. They knew that their 'products' offered such huge leverage. The net result was that the punters had the odds stacked massively against them - a small move in the market against the punter would often result in the loss of his / her entire pot. That's why GOOD MONEY MANAGEMENT and CAPITAL PRESERVATION are so important!! For one if you lose your capital your can't spread bet any more or can only bet very small amounts. And second if you lose 50% of your account, you've got to make 100% just to get back to even.

This account clearly presented a problem for the company concerned. Too small to hedge (as the Nikkei contract is bigger than £1 a point), the account was showing a consistent ability to win. The spread-betting company simply used its power to decide what prices to quote, and when, and then ceased to make a market during the time period concerned. Another firm stopped him trading via the internet after a large monthly gain. This highlights a fundamental problem with spread betting.

Cases like the one mentioned above are not uncommon. Some of the spreadbetting companies do not hedge all of their positions. This means that your win is their loss. It could well be that the case highlighted above is based on someone who was trading a 'grey market' (for those people who don't understand the term, a 'grey market', it is a market which is made entirely by the spread betting company. This could be an index which is quoted 'out of hours' for example). Therefore it is possible that the customer's position simply could not be hedged. This means that they assume the full risk.

Therefore if someone is very good at calling a particular market then it becomes financially sensible for the quoting company to move the goal posts slightly until the customer's advantage is lost. The experienced dealer knows that there are several ways of 'moving the goal posts'. Refusing orders or delaying executions are just simple examples of a company gaining an unfair advantage over a customer. The problem for the customer is explaining that situation to the regulatory authority in a manner which they will understand.

My own personal view is that the different companies will note your trading style and that can determine what kind of service you receive. If you scalp trade effectively (scalpers attempt to 'scalp' i.e. extract profits from small price movements using large position sizes) then you will often upset the spreadbetting companies, I know companies will argue this but that is my experience and therefore my view. More than a year ago I had a dispute IG Index which is evidence of that. IG are happy to send out advertising literature stating that 'prices are always live and tradable' and that 'the price you see is the price you get' - this is in order to attract customers to their platform. However, as you become a better trader and win money in very short time-frames you may start to get treated differently. In my case it reached a point where orders were taking almost a minute to get processed and orders were being refused based on price movements within that time. This clearly isn't the service that they clearly advertise and nor is it what the terms and conditions say will happen to your order once it is received. Thereby, swing trading and position trading strategies are better suitable for spread betting than scalping strategies.

Companies that have, in the past, resorted to certain sharp practices. All the big spread betting and cfd firms these days are increasingly seeing professional traders register and deposit substantial six-figure sums because they're finally making the move away from other trading methods towards better regulation, smaller spreads and NO TAX. Also, where can you speculate in almost any financial, commodity or currency market worldwide, within the one account!? If I wake up one morning feeling bullish on the Pound or bearish on gold and I can take immediate action. But with a traditional stockbroker or even a futures trader this is often difficult because they won't be set-up for that kind of business. In effect you may find yourself having to open accounts with different brokers to trade different products.

To be honest Direct Market Access attracted me at first, all excited about leaving orders on the underlying, then I suddenly realized I was paying through the nose for it and that you are being squeezed into placing larger trades. I have always stuck to spread betting because nowadays the spreads are so tight and the all round packages are generally very good and improving all the time. In a nutshell, the tax free element and leverage outweigh all other factors for me. Sure one day I will have to answer the sole income question, though I have some ideas as to how I could work around this. The path that a successful trader takes is one of continual evolution and I would re-evaluate this situation if something really nasty happened. For now I'm making steady and consistent if modest gains which although far from the millions of pounds which some top traders claim to have made are still a welcome supplement to my income
a spreadbetters lament.
 
Last edited:

montmorencyt2w

Senior member
2,619 294
If most people lose, why to the SB firms worry about those few who win?

Having said that, I believe (not from personal experience) that casinos don't like punters who regularly win, and end up showing them the door, with prejudice. SB firms are just casinos pretending to be stockbrokers aren't they?


What about the high profile people who write books, and claim to be successful traders, some of whom say they use SB firms (I can think of a couple of names). Do you think that they have these problems?


Someone said they had problems as soon as they started withdrawing funds. Are there any recorded cases of SB firms actually freezing a customer's funds and not letting go?
The FSA is supposed to protect us against this, I believe, but we know how effective they have been in other areas.

I have a few bob (not a fortune, but I don't want to lose it) with 3 firms .. some is mine, most is theirs...I wonder if they will kick up if I want it all?
 
Last edited:

ibex666

Member
88 8
withdrawl

If most people lose, why to the SB firms worry about those few who win?

Having said that, I believe (not from personal experience) that casinos don't like punters who regularly win, and end up showing them the door, with prejudice. SB firms are just casinos pretending to be stockbrokers aren't they?


What about the high profile people who write books, and claim to be successful traders, some of whom say they use SB firms (I can think of a couple of names). Do you think that they have these problems?


Someone said they had problems as soon as they started withdrawing funds. Are there any recorded cases of SB firms actually freezing a customer's funds and not letting go?
The FSA is supposed to protect us against this, I believe, but we know how effective they have been in other areas.

I have a few bob (not a fortune, but I don't want to lose it) with 3 firms .. some is mine, most is theirs...I wonder if they will kick up if I want it all?

Have never had a problem withdrawing. even to the point a recent withdrawl request didnt go through properly due to a glitch in my sb,s system, so they phoned me to applologise and did an instant chaps transfer at no charge. Theyre not gonna play about with withdrawl requests. ok you can be cynical about the way they operate, eg slow order execution etc etc. But it too much hassle for them not to release monies, (unless they can come up with a valid reason as to why you didnt win those monies) but thats another story!
 

stevespray

Experienced member
1,289 154
If most people lose, why to the SB firms worry about those few who win?

Having said that, I believe (not from personal experience) that casinos don't like punters who regularly win, and end up showing them the door, with prejudice. SB firms are just casinos pretending to be stockbrokers aren't they?


What about the high profile people who write books, and claim to be successful traders, some of whom say they use SB firms (I can think of a couple of names). Do you think that they have these problems?


Someone said they had problems as soon as they started withdrawing funds. Are there any recorded cases of SB firms actually freezing a customer's funds and not letting go?
The FSA is supposed to protect us against this, I believe, but we know how effective they have been in other areas.

I have a few bob (not a fortune, but I don't want to lose it) with 3 firms .. some is mine, most is theirs...I wonder if they will kick up if I want it all?

Once you start winning you tend to increase the size of the bets. Therefore the statistic is not as simple as the 90% vs 10% which is often bounded about since the net balance in terms of winning bet size vs losing bet size is not automatically the same statistic which is what people generalise.

You will rarely have a problem withdrawing funds - all bets entered into are enforcable by law - they have no choice in the matter.

What I did notice with one firm is that 'restirctive measures' can into force once I made a fairly large withdrawal request. Another firm suspended my account about 6 hours after I made an online request and ultimately closed the account about a week later - no reason was ever offered, they said "management decision".

Steve.
 

TDWDAV

Newbie
5 0
Read This before doing another trade.

What the spread betting companies don't want you to know...
Spread Betting in itself isn't evil and can be lucrative if used properly but you also have to be keep in mind that the spread betting industry is still in its infancy with new providers still entering the field. The following article tries to discuss all the bad experiences that have been reported over the past years.

Gambling or Trading?
The thing that I can never get my head around - one thing that just about everyone agrees on -: 85% of traders lose money! Even 85% of fund managers, with vast resources, fail to beat the index. And the spread betting companies benefit from this


;
1) They could lay off the bets. This is expensive for them and assumes they can lay off the bet. My guess is that they don't generally do this other than to make sure all bets as a whole are within risk tolerances. Some spread betting firms have Then come along the 10%-15% who make consistent and substantial gains - a rare breed (we all agree?). If you run a spread betting company and face this situation with a large number of small losers and a small number of very big consistent winners you would face a dilemma on how to deal with the 'suckers'however publicly stated that they net off the trades internally and either carry the risk or hedge only the net exposure. Obviously, it's a lot cheaper/easier for them to hedge just the net risk than hedging every single position.
2) They could side with you. I call this 'front running' or 'matching the trades' and happens in 'real' markets too; after all, you've got the stats to back up that their system is profitable, rather than an advertising sales pitch.
3) Normal trade size restrictions limit the spread betters exposure to very successful traders/strategies thus preventing a trader ever to make a 'large' amount of money. However, the press story about "The Plumber" of around a year ago implied that he was running a spread bet of £ several thousand per point.
4) Checking the profitability of instrument lines. If there are unprofitable instruments (meaning customers are finding real edges against the house) they would stop trading that instrument or adjust their pricing model (especially where there is no off setting market) .
5) Review a customer's profitability over time and place restrictions on successful traders. Whilst there has been some evidence of this it doesn't seem to be widespread otherwise the Internet boards would be full of traders complaining although there's plenty of anecdotal evidence.
High Gearing/Leverage = High Risk
No doubt leverage is a great thing if you know what you are doing - but it is perilous if you don't have a clue. Few people care to admit to themselves that they don't know what they are doing.
To fully understand this we need to examine past history because events and circumstances have a tendency of repeating themselves in time. The evolution of spread betting is very similar to the evolution of the 'Bucket Shops' on America's East Coast in the late 1800's. I suggest that everybody has a read about Jessie L Livermore and his experiences with the 'Bucket Shops' in the late 1800's/ early 1900's. Direct comparisons can be made between the modern day spreadbetting Companies and the Bucket Shops. It's a similar pattern of evolution which is simply taking place 100 years later. It is another example of a cycle repeating itself.
In essence these shops would hedge very little if anything. They knew that their 'products' offered such huge leverage. The net result was that the punters had the odds stacked massively against them - a small move in the market against the punter would often result in the loss of his / her entire pot. That's why GOOD MONEY MANAGEMENT and CAPITAL PRESERVATION are so important!! For one if you lose your capital your can't spread bet any more or can only bet very small amounts. And second if you lose 50% of your account, you've got to make 100% just to get back to even.
Do Spread Betting firms really hedge?
A recent article on Investors Chronicle mentioned how one very active spread better started encountering trading restrictions and later.
As a better-than-average trader, he did not fit into the normal mould of a loser, and yet he still liked to bet small - between £1 and £10 a point. After placing a £2-a-point position with one leading company just after markets open every morning - and winning most of the time, at market opening times - he suddenly found that the spread-betting company no longer quoted Nikkei prices for the first five or 10 minutes of the trading session.
This account clearly presented a problem for the company concerned. Too small to hedge (as the Nikkei contract is bigger than £1 a point), the account was showing a consistent ability to win. The spread-betting company simply used its power to decide what prices to quote, and when, and then ceased to make a market during the time period concerned. Another firm stopped him trading via the internet after a large monthly gain. This highlights a fundamental problem with spread betting.
Cases like the one mentioned above are not uncommon. Some of the spreadbetting companies do not hedge all of their positions. This means that your win is their loss. It could well be that the case highlighted above is based on someone who was trading a 'grey market' (for those people who don't understand the term, a 'grey market', it is a market which is made entirely by the spread betting company. This could be an index which is quoted 'out of hours' for example). Therefore it is possible that the customer's position simply could not be hedged. This means that they assume the full risk. Therefore if someone is very good at calling a particular market then it becomes financially sensible for the quoting company to move the goal posts slightly until the customer's advantage is lost. The experienced dealer knows that there are several ways of 'moving the goal posts'. Refusing orders or delaying executions are just simple examples of a company gaining an unfair advantage over a customer. The problem for the customer is explaining that situation to the regulatory authority in a manner which they will understand.
There are also a number of other points:
The companies which offer very tight spreads would find it more or less impossible to make any money if they hedged positions. Quite often the companies quote is the same as the underlying market. It is also possible that they may not be able to hedge quickly enough. Some traders for example are experts at reading L2 in certain stocks. Quite often they will spot a cascading price and dive in so quickly that quite often it is not possible for the company to take a similar position in the time available. By that I mean that in the time it takes for the punter to open his bet the position is already showing a breakeven or a profit. This is where the problem lies when a spreadbetting company takes on an experienced market participant who trades in such a manner. He or she may be an expert in only a few markets which they watch for many hours a day and also monitor with expensive software. The spread betting company however makes thousands of different prices and can not therefore be an expert in them all. The net result is that, in some cases, the company finds it necessary to manually process certain customer's orders in certain markets. This manual process adds time to execution which gives them time to inspect the order. For example, if an 'OBL has been found' rumour broke then it would be 'sensible' for a certain company to slow down its order flow in many of its markets purely because the market would suddenly make a very easy long. I hope that you get the picture. The bottom line is that split second timing can, in certain cases, make the difference between a successful trade and a losing one. The spreadbetting companies are very aware of that.
I think it was the Chairman of IGIndex who a couple of years ago admitted that they didn't lay bets off because it was just too expensive to do. He made a public statement to this effect (a friend of Gerald Ratner perhaps?). Effectively they take a view of the market each day and adjust their quotes accordingly in order to minimise damage and maximise profit. That is a summary of what I believe he said.
Execution delays
A number of the books written about Livermore mention how the bucket shops acted to protect their interests when he started to make money from them. Is it any different today? Widening of the spreads and delays in order execution are tricks which were played by the bucket shops 120 years ago. If we are honest then we know that, in this computer driven world which we now live, it is possible to execute customer's orders electronically in a fraction of a second. Ask yourself why many of these companies still route certain orders or customers through a manual dealing procedure? These companies are fully aware that an introduction of a delay gives them a chance to observe movements within the market which were subsequent to the order being placed - of course they can then use these 'subsequent movements' to determine the financial viability of the submitted order.
My own personal view is that the different companies will note your trading style and that can determine what kind of service you receive. If you scalp trade effectively (scalpers attempt to 'scalp' i.e. extract profits from small price movements using large position sizes) then you will often upset the spreadbetting companies, I know companies will argue this but that is my experience and therefore my view. More than a year ago I had a dispute IG Index which is evidence of that. IG are happy to send out advertising literature stating that 'prices are always live and tradable' and that 'the price you see is the price you get' - this is in order to attract customers to their platform. However, as you become a better trader and win money in very short time-frames you may start to get treated differently. In my case it reached a point where orders were taking almost a minute to get processed and orders were being refused based on price movements within that time. This clearly isn't the service that they clearly advertise and nor is it what the terms and conditions say will happen to your order once it is received. Thereby, swing trading and position trading strategies are better suitable for spread betting than scalping strategies.
The bet was for £80 per point. I've bet at that size many times and its never been a problem. I would however mention that the time it takes to process my bets had increased from about 3 seconds to 40 odd seconds. It seems to me like they started to monitor exactly what I was doing by manually checking each bet. However the dealer has admitted that he only decided that his price on Dow needed reviewing after my instructions to close were known to him. As he is at liberty to swing his market based on his order book then it is clear that a conflict of interests exists if they are allowed to have 'seconds thoughts" once they have priced and advertised their market prices. Obviously in this case the dealer rejected the order based on what he decided his market was after he had re-priced it, however the T&C act to protect customers from this type of situation by clear stating that the reasons for rejections based on incorrect prices should be based on prices AT THE TIME THE ORDER IS SUBMITTED. In my case the price I submitted was correct at the time I submitted it and only became incorrect with the passing of time (almost 1 minute) but IG ignored this fact because it suited them to do so.
Execution delays allow spread betting companies to see if the market is moving in a manner favourable to them or the customer, if the move favours them they simply accept the order, if it favours the punter they refuse the order on the grounds that "the price is no longer valid". This type of sharp practice does go on (we are referring to scalp trading here) and it does conflict directly with the service that companies actually advertise. There is only one reason in the world of spreadbetting why companies would advertise "the price you see is the price you get" and that is to suggest to customers that their service is in some way superior because of the ability to grab prices quickly. The fact is that when push comes to shove they claim that they have no obligation to standby anything they advertise, be it the type of service (ie WYSIWYG) or the prices. There are laws which are supposed to protect consumers from this type of rogue practice and the FSA has recently increased its vigilance and monitoring of financial promotions.
The fact is that computers can match and process deals far quicker than the human intervention that many of the spreadbetting companies use. Computers are also much cheaper, don't demand a salary and don't take lunch breaks. Staff are paid to process orders because it is financially viable for them to do so. Experienced customers will always be able to take advantage of certain market conditions if they are allowed to do so. By this I mean that fast execution does, under certain circumstances, benefit the customer which is of course to the detriment of the company offering the market.
This is where the delay in execution is particularly useful to the spreadbetting company. While your order is waiting to be executed the dealer effectively has the gift of hindsight in deciding whether to allow your order to pass at the originally quoted level. In effect this advantage, over a period of time, has the effect of making the spread slightly larger than is quoted. The obvious result is an increase in the cost of trading which is a cost shouldered purely by the customer.
And that's why phone dealing can turn convenient here - if you deal on the Internet and you start getting delays on the screen price, if they don't like it , it gives them time to change it whereas on the phone, the dealers can't do that unless they want to risk lying barefaced over a tape recorder.
Re-Quotes
If the quoted prices are honoured by the spread betting company which is usual in normal markets, all is well but trouble starts when the market has moved away from the quoted price and the dealer decides to reject your trade, and 're-quotes' you a new price.
This happens regularly with CMC and there is no point in pretending that it does not. Sadly it seems that the more successful the trader is, the more it happens (shares and indices). Traders can only talk about their own experiences and with CMC it is not a case of seeking to place the blame elsewhere. IG Index on the other hand do not carry out such practices (in my experience) but their spreads/charges are much higher.
One could say that execution delays shouldn't do much harm if your strategy is right and your finger quick. However for example, with CMC at times even with fastest finger your attempted trade will only be accepted if it is going against you. Actual experience not once, twice, thrice but several times:-
Once the mouse is clicked the order screen is frozen, no more trades can be placed, may eventually go through only if price as moved against me, Otherwise a re-quote.
Mouse clicked, order screen stays yellow, theoretically giving me a option to cancel the order as well as an option for CMC to refuse the trade. If the price moves against me try to cancel -no luck trade accepted. Otherwise the screen stays yellow till the inevitable re-quote.
Trade accepted, subsequently cancelled -reason bad price. Only the opening trade cancelled, closing trade stays valid. Had to have a 10 mins discussion before no profit/loss situation was restored- only on one occasion.
CMC, as market makers, told me that they will not accept an order for 1000 Abbey National (FTSE 100 CO) as there were no buyers. Placed limit order, price reached the limit order - no fill. When queried got a similar response, however, all of a sudden got filled, and guess what within seconds the price moved in the right direction by several pence. Forget the details, but it was about 10 to 15 pence.
Finally, the above tactics were experienced with 80, 25, 5 and even 1 Dow contract.
None of the above is made up or is sour grapes actual practical experience.
Skewed Spreads
One practice (which, again, is thankfully less common now than it was a few years ago) is to skew the spread in the direction of the market move. In other words, if the market is trending rapidly down, most people are selling, so, although the spread may be the same, the prices quoted will be that much lower than in the real market, as most people would be selling into a down move. As soon as the market looks like it's going to recover, the skew is switched around the other way. This can shave several points off a client's profit. However, it can backfire in that not only does it upset customers by appearing unfair, but those able to take the opposite trade fast enough can squeeze some extra profit out of the trade.
Barred
Yes! Its not unheard of that accounts be closed for 'winning too much'- the account is not usually closed straightaway but the behaviour of the broker can become (in rare cases) less than pleasant if the bets placed are costing the spread-betting company large sums of money; this could happen if the instrument the client is trading on cannot be easily hedged by the spread betting provider. I refer this as closing accounts with grace hehe and I suppose having your account closed is really a compliment. However, we don't support firms that close down winning accounts so for this reason we will not hesitate to shame such behaviour.
Timeouts
Even worse than a re-quote is a 'timeout'. Some online systems have an hourglass icon, which spins away for what seems like an eon (from a few seconds to a minute or more). By the time you realise that nothing is going to happen, and you call the dealer hotline, it's up to the dealer whether you get the price you were originally quoted. Some companies put a high premium on customer satisfaction, and will give you your original quoted price, while others just quote the market at the time.
So how to get the insight without the pain?
So where do you get the insight on the various providers without going to the expense of opening an account with all the different spread-betting companies? Most providers offer a demo account to try their dealing platform although this doesn't guarantee that your executions will be dealt in the same way as with a real money account. But remember demo trading can only do so much, it is when real money is on the line where the markets bring out every emotional defect you have. Risk small capital so you can stay in the game long enough to learn and demo trade using market orders, go for the longer trades and do not scalp. The shorter your timeframe the more you'll compete with professionals and anyhow you're end up irking the spread betting dealers if you are successful as its difficult for a spread betting company to offset your exposure for very short trading timeframes. And you could always visit sites like this one and check our regular reviews about the different providers. If you ask me which spread betting to recommend I would say that most are pretty good but you should look for brokers that quote the tightest spreads combined with good software which is reliable, especially when the markets get volatile. Personally I've been using Capital Spreads for over a year now and am still a happy camper
OK, finally the good news - things have improved!
The penetration of the Spread Betting companies is most probably reaching maturity. It is unlikely that there is a completely new batch of clients ready to tap into, so in the first decade of the 21st century the financial spread betting companies are likely to concentrate on innovation of products and services.
Most of the so called 'incidents' mentioned above are a thing of the past. Things have vastly improved over the last few years. Competition has lowered spreads significantly and the quality of service is improving all the time. For example, 'rolling' bets have been introduced at many spread-betting companies recently. They have the same low spreads as the 'daily' bet (which is an intra-day bet that has to be closed by the end of that day's session), but can be rolled over to the next day with a small charge being made for the rollover. This bridges the gap between a daily bet (that expires at the end of that day), and the larger spread paid for a bet that expires several weeks or months hence.
Companies that have, in the past, resorted to certain sharp practices appear to be doing it rarely now, as it clearly isn't in their interests to upset their customers, and effectively chase them away to firms which treat their customers more equitably. All the big spread betting and cfd firms these days are increasingly seeing professional traders register and deposit substantial six-figure sums because they're finally making the move away from other trading methods towards better regulation, smaller spreads and NO TAX. Also, where can you speculate in almost any financial, commodity or currency market worldwide, within the one account!? If I wake up one morning feeling bullish on the Pound or bearish on gold and I can take immediate action. But with a traditional stockbroker or even a futures trader this is often difficult because they won't be set-up for that kind of business. In effect you may find yourself having to open accounts with different brokers to trade different products.
To be honest Direct Market Access attracted me at first, all excited about leaving orders on the underlying, then I suddenly realized I was paying through the nose for it and that you are being squeezed into placing larger trades. I have always stuck to spread betting because nowadays the spreads are so tight and the all round packages are generally very good and improving all the time. In a nutshell, the tax free element and leverage outweigh all other factors for me. Sure one day I will have to answer the sole income question, though I have some ideas as to how I could work around this. The path that a successful trader takes is one of continual evolution and I would re-evaluate this situation if something really nasty happened. For now I'm making steady and consistent if modest gains which although far from the millions of pounds which some top traders claim to have made are still a welcome supplement to my income
a spreadbetters lament
They slipped me again, I couldn’t get out
it went the wrong way, the news was leaked out
the broker is bent, the prices are wrong
they took all my rentGambling or Trading?
The thing that I can never get my head around - one thing that just about everyone agrees on -: 85% of traders lose money! Even 85% of fund managers, with vast resources, fail to beat the index. And the spread betting companies benefit from this


;
1) They could lay off the bets. This is expensive for them and assumes they can lay off the bet. My guess is that they don't generally do this other than to make sure all bets as a whole are within risk tolerances. Some spread betting firms have Then come along the 10%-15% who make consistent and substantial gains - a rare breed (we all agree?). If you run a spread betting company and face this situation with a large number of small losers and a small number of very big consistent winners you would face a dilemma on how to deal with the 'suckers'however publicly stated that they net off the trades internally and either carry the risk or hedge only the net exposure. Obviously, it's a lot cheaper/easier for them to hedge just the net risk than hedging every single position.
2) They could side with you. I call this 'front running' or 'matching the trades' and happens in 'real' markets too; after all, you've got the stats to back up that their system is profitable, rather than an advertising sales pitch.
3) Normal trade size restrictions limit the spread betters exposure to very successful traders/strategies thus preventing a trader ever to make a 'large' amount of money. However, the press story about "The Plumber" of around a year ago implied that he was running a spread bet of £ several thousand per point.
4) Checking the profitability of instrument lines. If there are unprofitable instruments (meaning customers are finding real edges against the house) they would stop trading that instrument or adjust their pricing model (especially where there is no off setting market) .
5) Review a customer's profitability over time and place restrictions on successful traders. Whilst there has been some evidence of this it doesn't seem to be widespread otherwise the Internet boards would be full of traders complaining although there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of Deal4Free doing this...
High Gearing/Leverage = High Risk
No doubt leverage is a great thing if you know what you are doing - but it is perilous if you don't have a clue. Few people care to admit to themselves that they don't know what they are doing.
To fully understand this we need to examine past history because events and circumstances have a tendency of repeating themselves in time. The evolution of spread betting is very similar to the evolution of the 'Bucket Shops' on America's East Coast in the late 1800's. I suggest that everybody has a read about Jessie L Livermore and his experiences with the 'Bucket Shops' in the late 1800's/ early 1900's. Direct comparisons can be made between the modern day spreadbetting Companies and the Bucket Shops. It's a similar pattern of evolution which is simply taking place 100 years later. It is another example of a cycle repeating itself.
In essence these shops would hedge very little if anything. They knew that their 'products' offered such huge leverage. The net result was that the punters had the odds stacked massively against them - a small move in the market against the punter would often result in the loss of his / her entire pot. That's why GOOD MONEY MANAGEMENT and CAPITAL PRESERVATION are so important!! For one if you lose your capital your can't spread bet any more or can only bet very small amounts. And second if you lose 50% of your account, you've got to make 100% just to get back to even.
Do Spread Betting firms really hedge?
A recent article on Investors Chronicle mentioned how one very active spread better started encountering trading restrictions and later.
As a better-than-average trader, he did not fit into the normal mould of a loser, and yet he still liked to bet small - between £1 and £10 a point. After placing a £2-a-point position with one leading company just after markets open every morning - and winning most of the time, at market opening times - he suddenly found that the spread-betting company no longer quoted Nikkei prices for the first five or 10 minutes of the trading session.
This account clearly presented a problem for the company concerned. Too small to hedge (as the Nikkei contract is bigger than £1 a point), the account was showing a consistent ability to win. The spread-betting company simply used its power to decide what prices to quote, and when, and then ceased to make a market during the time period concerned. Another firm stopped him trading via the internet after a large monthly gain. This highlights a fundamental problem with spread betting.
Cases like the one mentioned above are not uncommon. Some of the spreadbetting companies do not hedge all of their positions. This means that your win is their loss. It could well be that the case highlighted above is based on someone who was trading a 'grey market' (for those people who don't understand the term, a 'grey market', it is a market which is made entirely by the spread betting company. This could be an index which is quoted 'out of hours' for example). Therefore it is possible that the customer's position simply could not be hedged. This means that they assume the full risk. Therefore if someone is very good at calling a particular market then it becomes financially sensible for the quoting company to move the goal posts slightly until the customer's advantage is lost. The experienced dealer knows that there are several ways of 'moving the goal posts'. Refusing orders or delaying executions are just simple examples of a company gaining an unfair advantage over a customer. The problem for the customer is explaining that situation to the regulatory authority in a manner which they will understand.
There are also a number of other points:
The companies which offer very tight spreads would find it more or less impossible to make any money if they hedged positions. Quite often the companies quote is the same as the underlying market. It is also possible that they may not be able to hedge quickly enough. Some traders for example are experts at reading L2 in certain stocks. Quite often they will spot a cascading price and dive in so quickly that quite often it is not possible for the company to take a similar position in the time available. By that I mean that in the time it takes for the punter to open his bet the position is already showing a breakeven or a profit. This is where the problem lies when a spreadbetting company takes on an experienced market participant who trades in such a manner. He or she may be an expert in only a few markets which they watch for many hours a day and also monitor with expensive software. The spread betting company however makes thousands of different prices and can not therefore be an expert in them all. The net result is that, in some cases, the company finds it necessary to manually process certain customer's orders in certain markets. This manual process adds time to execution which gives them time to inspect the order. For example, if an 'OBL has been found' rumour broke then it would be 'sensible' for a certain company to slow down its order flow in many of its markets purely because the market would suddenly make a very easy long. I hope that you get the picture. The bottom line is that split second timing can, in certain cases, make the difference between a successful trade and a losing one. The spreadbetting companies are very aware of that.
I think it was the Chairman of IGIndex who a couple of years ago admitted that they didn't lay bets off because it was just too expensive to do. He made a public statement to this effect (a friend of Gerald Ratner perhaps?). Effectively they take a view of the market each day and adjust their quotes accordingly in order to minimise damage and maximise profit. That is a summary of what I believe he said.
Execution delays
A number of the books written about Livermore mention how the bucket shops acted to protect their interests when he started to make money from them. Is it any different today? Widening of the spreads and delays in order execution are tricks which were played by the bucket shops 120 years ago. If we are honest then we know that, in this computer driven world which we now live, it is possible to execute customer's orders electronically in a fraction of a second. Ask yourself why many of these companies still route certain orders or customers through a manual dealing procedure? These companies are fully aware that an introduction of a delay gives them a chance to observe movements within the market which were subsequent to the order being placed - of course they can then use these 'subsequent movements' to determine the financial viability of the submitted order.
My own personal view is that the different companies will note your trading style and that can determine what kind of service you receive. If you scalp trade effectively (scalpers attempt to 'scalp' i.e. extract profits from small price movements using large position sizes) then you will often upset the spreadbetting companies, I know companies will argue this but that is my experience and therefore my view. More than a year ago I had a dispute IG Index which is evidence of that. IG are happy to send out advertising literature stating that 'prices are always live and tradable' and that 'the price you see is the price you get' - this is in order to attract customers to their platform. However, as you become a better trader and win money in very short time-frames you may start to get treated differently. In my case it reached a point where orders were taking almost a minute to get processed and orders were being refused based on price movements within that time. This clearly isn't the service that they clearly advertise and nor is it what the terms and conditions say will happen to your order once it is received. Thereby, swing trading and position trading strategies are better suitable for spread betting than scalping strategies.
The bet was for £80 per point. I've bet at that size many times and its never been a problem. I would however mention that the time it takes to process my bets had increased from about 3 seconds to 40 odd seconds. It seems to me like they started to monitor exactly what I was doing by manually checking each bet. However the dealer has admitted that he only decided that his price on Dow needed reviewing after my instructions to close were known to him. As he is at liberty to swing his market based on his order book then it is clear that a conflict of interests exists if they are allowed to have 'seconds thoughts" once they have priced and advertised their market prices. Obviously in this case the dealer rejected the order based on what he decided his market was after he had re-priced it, however the T&C act to protect customers from this type of situation by clear stating that the reasons for rejections based on incorrect prices should be based on prices AT THE TIME THE ORDER IS SUBMITTED. In my case the price I submitted was correct at the time I submitted it and only became incorrect with the passing of time (almost 1 minute) but IG ignored this fact because it suited them to do so.
Execution delays allow spread betting companies to see if the market is moving in a manner favourable to them or the customer, if the move favours them they simply accept the order, if it favours the punter they refuse the order on the grounds that "the price is no longer valid". This type of sharp practice does go on (we are referring to scalp trading here) and it does conflict directly with the service that companies actually advertise. There is only one reason in the world of spreadbetting why companies would advertise "the price you see is the price you get" and that is to suggest to customers that their service is in some way superior because of the ability to grab prices quickly. The fact is that when push comes to shove they claim that they have no obligation to standby anything they advertise, be it the type of service (ie WYSIWYG) or the prices. There are laws which are supposed to protect consumers from this type of rogue practice and the FSA has recently increased its vigilance and monitoring of financial promotions.
The fact is that computers can match and process deals far quicker than the human intervention that many of the spreadbetting companies use. Computers are also much cheaper, don't demand a salary and don't take lunch breaks. Staff are paid to process orders because it is financially viable for them to do so. Experienced customers will always be able to take advantage of certain market conditions if they are allowed to do so. By this I mean that fast execution does, under certain circumstances, benefit the customer which is of course to the detriment of the company offering the market.
This is where the delay in execution is particularly useful to the spreadbetting company. While your order is waiting to be executed the dealer effectively has the gift of hindsight in deciding whether to allow your order to pass at the originally quoted level. In effect this advantage, over a period of time, has the effect of making the spread slightly larger than is quoted. The obvious result is an increase in the cost of trading which is a cost shouldered purely by the customer.
And that's why phone dealing can turn convenient here - if you deal on the Internet and you start getting delays on the screen price, if they don't like it , it gives them time to change it whereas on the phone, the dealers can't do that unless they want to risk lying barefaced over a tape recorder.
Re-Quotes
If the quoted prices are honoured by the spread betting company which is usual in normal markets, all is well but trouble starts when the market has moved away from the quoted price and the dealer decides to reject your trade, and 're-quotes' you a new price.
This happens regularly with CMC and there is no point in pretending that it does not. Sadly it seems that the more successful the trader is, the more it happens (shares and indices). Traders can only talk about their own experiences and with CMC it is not a case of seeking to place the blame elsewhere. IG Index on the other hand do not carry out such practices (in my experience) but their spreads/charges are much higher.
One could say that execution delays shouldn't do much harm if your strategy is right and your finger quick. However for example, with CMC at times even with fastest finger your attempted trade will only be accepted if it is going against you. Actual experience not once, twice, thrice but several times:-
Once the mouse is clicked the order screen is frozen, no more trades can be placed, may eventually go through only if price as moved against me, Otherwise a re-quote.
Mouse clicked, order screen stays yellow, theoretically giving me a option to cancel the order as well as an option for CMC to refuse the trade. If the price moves against me try to cancel -no luck trade accepted. Otherwise the screen stays yellow till the inevitable re-quote.
Trade accepted, subsequently cancelled -reason bad price. Only the opening trade cancelled, closing trade stays valid. Had to have a 10 mins discussion before no profit/loss situation was restored- only on one occasion.
CMC, as market makers, told me that they will not accept an order for 1000 Abbey National (FTSE 100 CO) as there were no buyers. Placed limit order, price reached the limit order - no fill. When queried got a similar response, however, all of a sudden got filled, and guess what within seconds the price moved in the right direction by several pence. Forget the details, but it was about 10 to 15 pence.
Finally, the above tactics were experienced with 80, 25, 5 and even 1 Dow contract.
None of the above is made up or is sour grapes actual practical experience.
Skewed Spreads
One practice (which, again, is thankfully less common now than it was a few years ago) is to skew the spread in the direction of the market move. In other words, if the market is trending rapidly down, most people are selling, so, although the spread may be the same, the prices quoted will be that much lower than in the real market, as most people would be selling into a down move. As soon as the market looks like it's going to recover, the skew is switched around the other way. This can shave several points off a client's profit. However, it can backfire in that not only does it upset customers by appearing unfair, but those able to take the opposite trade fast enough can squeeze some extra profit out of the trade.
Barred
Yes! Its not unheard of that accounts be closed for 'winning too much'- the account is not usually closed straightaway but the behaviour of the broker can become (in rare cases) less than pleasant if the bets placed are costing the spread-betting company large sums of money; this could happen if the instrument the client is trading on cannot be easily hedged by the spread betting provider. I refer this as closing accounts with grace hehe and I suppose having your account closed is really a compliment. However, we don't support firms that close down winning accounts so for this reason we will not hesitate to shame such behaviour.
Timeouts
Even worse than a re-quote is a 'timeout'. Some online systems have an hourglass icon, which spins away for what seems like an eon (from a few seconds to a minute or more). By the time you realise that nothing is going to happen, and you call the dealer hotline, it's up to the dealer whether you get the price you were originally quoted. Some companies put a high premium on customer satisfaction, and will give you your original quoted price, while others just quote the market at the time.
So how to get the insight without the pain?
So where do you get the insight on the various providers without going to the expense of opening an account with all the different spread-betting companies? Most providers offer a demo account to try their dealing platform although this doesn't guarantee that your executions will be dealt in the same way as with a real money account. But remember demo trading can only do so much, it is when real money is on the line where the markets bring out every emotional defect you have. Risk small capital so you can stay in the game long enough to learn and demo trade using market orders, go for the longer trades and do not scalp. The shorter your timeframe the more you'll compete with professionals and anyhow you're end up irking the spread betting dealers if you are successful as its difficult for a spread betting company to offset your exposure for very short trading timeframes. And you could always visit sites like this one and check our regular reviews about the different providers. If you ask me which spread betting to recommend I would say that most are pretty good but you should look for brokers that quote the tightest spreads combined with good software which is reliable, especially when the markets get volatile.
The penetration of the Spread Betting companies is most probably reaching maturity. It is unlikely that there is a completely new batch of clients ready to tap into, so in the first decade of the 21st century the financial spread betting companies are likely to concentrate on innovation of products and services.
Most of the so called 'incidents' mentioned above are a thing of the past. Things have not improoved over the last few years. Competition has lowered spreads significantly and the quality of service is deteriating all the time. For example, 'rolling' bets have been introduced at many spread-betting companies recently. They have the same low spreads as the 'daily' bet (which is an intra-day bet that has to be closed by the end of that day's session), but can be rolled over to the next day with a small charge being made for the rollover. This bridges the gap between a daily bet (that expires at the end of that day), and the larger spread paid for a bet that expires several weeks or months hence.
Companies that have, in the past, resorted to certain sharp practices. All the big spread betting and cfd firms these days are increasingly seeing professional traders register and deposit substantial six-figure sums because they're finally making the move away from other trading methods towards better regulation, smaller spreads and NO TAX. Also, where can you speculate in almost any financial, commodity or currency market worldwide, within the one account!? If I wake up one morning feeling bullish on the Pound or bearish on gold and I can take immediate action. But with a traditional stockbroker or even a futures trader this is often difficult because they won't be set-up for that kind of business. In effect you may find yourself having to open accounts with different brokers to trade different products.
To be honest Direct Market Access attracted me at first, all excited about leaving orders on the underlying, then I suddenly realized I was paying through the nose for it and that you are being squeezed into placing larger trades. I have always stuck to spread betting because nowadays the spreads are so tight and the all round packages are generally very good and improving all the time. In a nutshell, the tax free element and leverage outweigh all other factors for me. Sure one day I will have to answer the sole income question, though I have some ideas as to how I could work around this. The path that a successful trader takes is one of continual evolution and I would re-evaluate this situation if something really nasty happened. For now I'm making steady and consistent if modest gains which although far from the millions of pounds which some top traders claim to have made are still a welcome supplement to my income
a spreadbetters lament


HI have been trading with Finspreads and TG Waterhouse although lost about £8k after wining £4k in a short time def believe the comps are fiddling the system have complkained about getting dodgy price and re-quotes. Find that when there are big moves in oil Dow etc my screen statrts flickering or shows bad connection thus inaccurate prices or if put trade on will say price has moved and have to trade at worst price. When I was £700 up on oil couldn't close out due to the price moving and eventually closed at £500 up. The latest trick is they have increased the margins and was told my trading size was too large at £10 a point on FTSE which meant had to wait to get a price before trade would go through which meant slow execution and advantage to them. My view is they're a bvunch of crooks but am still determined to draw back an0other £500 to b/e and then some profit before closing the account with them. Closed the TG Waterhouse account because of dodgy prices shoing inaccurate profit and them not refunding my loss. The screen was showing £80 loss so closed as was in profit above this on a trade going the other way with F/S when it closed it showed a loss of £500 + I suggest if people are going to trade with these companies use a screen capture program to viedo the trades and produce as proof if the trade son't reflect accuratley. Like to hear from other people with such problems am surprised they can get away with it an not reported to FSA. My trade wins were about 70% and am position trading these people want all about ur tarding experianec when u open an account, definatley think because work against u if ur a successful trader.
 

catracho

Well-known member
355 34
HI have been trading with Finspreads and TG Waterhouse although lost about £8k after wining £4k in a short time def believe the comps are fiddling the system have complkained about getting dodgy price and re-quotes. Find that when there are big moves in oil Dow etc my screen statrts flickering or shows bad connection thus inaccurate prices or if put trade on will say price has moved and have to trade at worst price. When I was £700 up on oil couldn't close out due to the price moving and eventually closed at £500 up. The latest trick is they have increased the margins and was told my trading size was too large at £10 a point on FTSE which meant had to wait to get a price before trade would go through which meant slow execution and advantage to them. My view is they're a bvunch of crooks but am still determined to draw back an0other £500 to b/e and then some profit before closing the account with them. Closed the TG Waterhouse account because of dodgy prices shoing inaccurate profit and them not refunding my loss. The screen was showing £80 loss so closed as was in profit above this on a trade going the other way with F/S when it closed it showed a loss of £500 + I suggest if people are going to trade with these companies use a screen capture program to viedo the trades and produce as proof if the trade son't reflect accuratley. Like to hear from other people with such problems am surprised they can get away with it an not reported to FSA. My trade wins were about 70% and am position trading these people want all about ur tarding experianec when u open an account, definatley think because work against u if ur a successful trader.

use cmc -never had real problem - most markets have been fast and volatile recently - no different to working at a trading desk in the city - never blame others for losses...:D
 

eyyup

Newbie
9 0
Scalping

Tomtom - Many thanks for your very informative post relating to the pitfall of successful scalping.

I had traded for a number of years with CMC and lost thousands over the period. After accidentally stumbling on a scalping method, which proved to be lucrative, I now find that every trade I place with them is held and requoted.

I have had all kinds, and colours of refused order tickets. From requoted to rejected, to held, to refused and am disgusted at the way that they treat customers who are successful in their trading, even though that same customer may have paid £££'s into the SB company in the past.

When I have phoned them to ask about the reason for this, I was passed from the help desk, to a dealer, then onto a manager within the space of ten seconds !

The manager I spoke to would not admit that they did not trade real time, but did say that the prices I had tried to enter trades at were not the true prices. When I laboured on the fact that they were their quoted prices, he would not mention the fact that they operated on a time lag, for obvious reasons, but said it sounded like I had a connection problem and that if I still had the problem the following day, I should phone back and give them my IP address and they would look into it. I politely refused.

Do you know if anyone has ever taken the SB companies to task over the matter and involved either the FSA or Trading Standards. I am sure what they are doing just falls short of fraud. Is it acceptable by the regulatory bodies that they have their cake and eat it ?

Once again, many thanks. Any further thoughts or informative advice would be very much appreciated.

Best wishes,

Eyyup.
 

ns1000

Established member
524 38
Tomtom - Many thanks for your very informative post relating to the pitfall of successful scalping.

I had traded for a number of years with CMC and lost thousands over the period. After accidentally stumbling on a scalping method, which proved to be lucrative, I now find that every trade I place with them is held and requoted.

I have had all kinds, and colours of refused order tickets. From requoted to rejected, to held, to refused and am disgusted at the way that they treat customers who are successful in their trading, even though that same customer may have paid £££'s into the SB company in the past.

When I have phoned them to ask about the reason for this, I was passed from the help desk, to a dealer, then onto a manager within the space of ten seconds !

The manager I spoke to would not admit that they did not trade real time, but did say that the prices I had tried to enter trades at were not the true prices. When I laboured on the fact that they were their quoted prices, he would not mention the fact that they operated on a time lag, for obvious reasons, but said it sounded like I had a connection problem and that if I still had the problem the following day, I should phone back and give them my IP address and they would look into it. I politely refused.

Do you know if anyone has ever taken the SB companies to task over the matter and involved either the FSA or Trading Standards. I am sure what they are doing just falls short of fraud. Is it acceptable by the regulatory bodies that they have their cake and eat it ?

Once again, many thanks. Any further thoughts or informative advice would be very much appreciated.

Best wishes,

Eyyup.

Putting you on referral is nothing to do with you being successful, just the fact that you're scalping. This is common to all SBs, as Simon in the CS thread admits. Not sure why you wouldn't give them your IP address; they say it's a connection problem but you won't let them check it - you give them the perfect get out.
 

eyyup

Newbie
9 0
Thanks for the reply NS1000. I take it that on referral is the technical term to dealing with scalping.
I had already checked the IP address issue and know that it does not matter from which IP address I log on from, CMC still automatically put my entry and exit trades on a reqoute. Hence why I did not give them the IP address.
The SB companies work to a time lag for one reason and that is because it benefits them financially. They know that scalping can occasionally be profitable to the trader and that is why they do all in their power to stop it, without causing too much of a rumpus of course, as that would only antagonise the issue.
Do you work for a SB company ? If so, it would be great to have an official opinion offered with regards to scalping.
When asked the question " Do you allow scalping ? By scalping it is meant holding a position for less than a minute".
CMC's response was "You are able to hold a position for less than a minute,. However, we do not encourage scalping".
I believe how they manipulate the time lag for their own financial gain is wrong. If they would operate in real time, as they could easily do, the problem would be resolved. Again NS1000, it is all about the SB companies having their cake and eating it.
 
Last edited:

Lee Shepherd

Senior member
2,164 573
Wow, this whole thread is full of losers.

I wont waste my breath telling you about me, you listen or pay attention anyway so fcuk it. Just go DMA guys and keep us all posted to how you do in the real world. No 50-50% or 10% spreadbetting, if there that bad, use 100% DMA. Simple and easy, and dont forget to keep us all posted on the millions your making.

Good Luck, you'll need it for the real world. (no £1 entries on DMA or accounts at £500)
 

eyyup

Newbie
9 0
Lee Shepherd - Can't understand the attitude. Sounds to me like you've got issues. Hope it's nothing to do with your last blog entry dated 8th-14th Sept. Ooops ! Why have you discontinued the blog ?

I'm new to this site, but have already deduced you're a jumped up little ars***le of a boy. Grow up. You are a legend in your own mind. Get real.
 

Lee Shepherd

Senior member
2,164 573
Lee Shepherd - Can't understand the attitude. Sounds to me like you've got issues. Hope it's nothing to do with your last blog entry dated 8th-14th Sept. Ooops ! Why have you discontinued the blog ?

I'm new to this site, but have already deduced you're a jumped up little ars***le of a boy. Grow up. You are a legend in your own mind. Get real.


Lol :LOL:

Then you have me all wrong my friend.

I dont have issues, it just seems that all the sh1t congregate in one place, losersville.

Try hangin out with some of the successfull traders and see that it aint that hard to trade and be profitable. As for my blog, ooops, I've informed those who follow it exactly of my position with my trading style and have now moved to daytrading for which I am trading around 20 contracts daily as oppose to weekly. The losses you see where indeed harmful but yet still made money from that quarter. Try reading it properly and not want you want to read into it.

ie, he's lost so it must be hard, i aint the only one and that makes me feel good.

If its any consolation to your ego mate, I am still trading and yes...profitably enough to pay a full time wage as I am just that, a full time trader. Now go away and have a proper read of the posts you little man you.


If you hang around sh1t, you'll smell like it, try hanging around roses instead and you might just come out smelling like them.

Good luck trying to break into trading bud, its a long road.
 
 
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