sandpiper
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fabius,
If you can, you are better off obtaining the revised work "Master The Markets" published by TradeGuider.
It's the same book as the Tom Williams original but revised to eliminate the annoying typos and inconsistencies found in the original and add some more up to date charts.
If you can, you are better off obtaining the revised work "Master The Markets" published by TradeGuider.
It's the same book as the Tom Williams original but revised to eliminate the annoying typos and inconsistencies found in the original and add some more up to date charts.
Significance of the day open price
sandpiper
I am particularly interested in understanding the significance of the OPENING price for the day.
I would like understand its significance by observing where the open price is positioned in respect to the previous day bar or candle and ,even better, referred to a larger context; for instance its relation to the price movement over the previous 5/6 day period and resistance or support
Am I correct in assuming that this price is largely determined by the market makers ?
And if it is so, can we guess their intentions?
I would be grateful for opinions and enlightment or indications on where to find books/material covering the subject
sandpiper
I am particularly interested in understanding the significance of the OPENING price for the day.
I would like understand its significance by observing where the open price is positioned in respect to the previous day bar or candle and ,even better, referred to a larger context; for instance its relation to the price movement over the previous 5/6 day period and resistance or support
Am I correct in assuming that this price is largely determined by the market makers ?
And if it is so, can we guess their intentions?
I would be grateful for opinions and enlightment or indications on where to find books/material covering the subject
sandpiper
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The only thing I have come across that looks at the open in any kind of objective, systematic way is the so called 'smart money indicator' by Connors and Raschke (Street Smarts). The Tom Williams/TradeGuider books discuss opening gaps in the context of weak and strong background action (but not in any systematic way).
There is a big difference between the opening process (and therefore the opening price) depending on which market and instrument you are talking about.
NYSE specialists will determine where their stocks will open depending on how many orders they can match and how much free money they can make. So in this case, the answer to your questions re: markets makers and intentions, is yes.
NASDAQ market makers no longer carry the large inventories of stock that they used to (AFAIK) and they clearly don't have an exclusive view of the order book (although they do know what instituational orders they have on their books). Some people would argue that you can work out their intentions (short term) by analysing Level II.
Futures is a whole different ball game and much more of a level playing field ever since they got rid of dual capacity (as far as I am concerned anyway). For the most part, the locals (floor or screen based) don't have any more idea of where the paper is than you or I (other than by watching for Merrill chewing his biro) ,and so they have to find it, hence the price discovery process.
As garethb has suggested there is a huge variety of stuff on the opening process and the significance of the opening price in relation to that days session (not previous sessions). I've always liked Grant Noble's - The Traders Edge, although that may be too specific for what you are considering (somewhat dated as well).
There is a big difference between the opening process (and therefore the opening price) depending on which market and instrument you are talking about.
NYSE specialists will determine where their stocks will open depending on how many orders they can match and how much free money they can make. So in this case, the answer to your questions re: markets makers and intentions, is yes.
NASDAQ market makers no longer carry the large inventories of stock that they used to (AFAIK) and they clearly don't have an exclusive view of the order book (although they do know what instituational orders they have on their books). Some people would argue that you can work out their intentions (short term) by analysing Level II.
Futures is a whole different ball game and much more of a level playing field ever since they got rid of dual capacity (as far as I am concerned anyway). For the most part, the locals (floor or screen based) don't have any more idea of where the paper is than you or I (other than by watching for Merrill chewing his biro) ,and so they have to find it, hence the price discovery process.
As garethb has suggested there is a huge variety of stuff on the opening process and the significance of the opening price in relation to that days session (not previous sessions). I've always liked Grant Noble's - The Traders Edge, although that may be too specific for what you are considering (somewhat dated as well).
temptrader
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I had a copy, bought it for £50 if I remember correctly. Had I seen this thread this time last year I would have sent it to you. My copy is at the local library now, along with most of my trading books (Elder, Bulkowski, Miner, Farley etc . .) and God knows what else. My persional view is that the book was OK but did not really help me at all in my trading (I'm a darksidder trading the S&P only). I never really understood why someone like Tom Williams, who claims to have been a successful trader, give it up and run a software company selling systems.
VSATrader
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temptrader said:
Hi temptrader;
I can answer your question. Tom spent 15 years in Beverly Hills working for a trading syndicate and that is where he made his money, after that time he got home sick and returned to England, and wondered if the principles he had learned could be incorporated into a computer program. He found one who could create a program, and Tom was very surprised to find that the principles(Wyckoff) did work in the program he created. Vsa was never more than a hobbie to keep him occupied, and he did not want the Wyckoff principles to be lost if anything happened to him. A lot of individuals have made a lot of money with that program after they have learned how it works, I know this because I have answered the phone at Tom's house and spoken to some of them, and I am doing nicely thank you.
I understand that Tom's website site contains information about his book.
Regards VSATrader
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dbphoenix
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VSATrader said:
As for the book, it's fine as far as it goes, and there are pdf versions floating around. As for the software, assuming that all of this is referring to TradeGuider, there are a couple of threads at ET that interested individuals may find enlightening.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34948
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36256
As for Wyckoff's principles being lost, his original course is available, though at a premium. I'm hoping that someday the group that holds the copyright will make it available without the purchaser having to buy their entire course. (If they don't, maybe I'll leave instructions to distribute my copy of it on the internet after I'm dead.)
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temptrader
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Dear Sebastian,
That's quite an interesting comment but since you cannot substantiate the claim I would not know what to make of it. This is not a flame, just a statement of fact. Also I find it very strange that Tom Williams would want to sell this form of software "on the side", since if he sold thousands of copies we are talking about a great deal of money here.
Could you tell use how on earth did Albert Labos (our beloved Socrates) managed to get his hands on it and sell it to his students? And the thread between you and him regarding the Y2K bug in the version of the software belaboured a silly point, since fixing such bugs is a terribly trivial matter.
And finally does Tom Williams approve of what Albert has done with his book?
VSATrader said:
That's quite an interesting comment but since you cannot substantiate the claim I would not know what to make of it. This is not a flame, just a statement of fact. Also I find it very strange that Tom Williams would want to sell this form of software "on the side", since if he sold thousands of copies we are talking about a great deal of money here.
Could you tell use how on earth did Albert Labos (our beloved Socrates) managed to get his hands on it and sell it to his students? And the thread between you and him regarding the Y2K bug in the version of the software belaboured a silly point, since fixing such bugs is a terribly trivial matter.
And finally does Tom Williams approve of what Albert has done with his book?
Thank you for your courteous reply.
Your reservations about Tom Williams success seem reasonable, on the other end the principle of stealthy accumulation at the bottom and distribution on rising prices seems sound to me.
Have you tried to apply any of Tom's principles yourself ?
I would also be interested to visit the library to which you have donated your books if not too distant from London.
Thanks again and best regards
Your reservations about Tom Williams success seem reasonable, on the other end the principle of stealthy accumulation at the bottom and distribution on rising prices seems sound to me.
Have you tried to apply any of Tom's principles yourself ?
I would also be interested to visit the library to which you have donated your books if not too distant from London.
Thanks again and best regards
Tom Williams Book
If you wanted to buy the book new there are two sites that I know of:
- www.global-investor.com - where the book costs about £50 and is called "The Undeclared Secrets that Drive The Stock Market". It is a paper copy
- www.tradeguider.com - where the book is called "Master the Markets" and is, I believe, an e-book. You can download the first part of it free, but the free selection doesn't really get into the nitty-gritty. It costs $99.
The tradeguider software has incorporated these Williams/Wyckoff principles. However I believe it you can learn more by using the principles yourself to analyse the markets and, then possibly, to build some alerts into standard charting software.
The original book has a number of typographical errors and errors on the charts. For example it might talk about point (g) on a chart, but really mean point (f), which is a bit off for a £50 work. However the content is valuable and tracking down these errors is a useful lesson in itself.
The principles are very useful and can also be successfully combined with other complementary techniques and analysis.
Charlton
Fabiusfabius said:
If you wanted to buy the book new there are two sites that I know of:
- www.global-investor.com - where the book costs about £50 and is called "The Undeclared Secrets that Drive The Stock Market". It is a paper copy
- www.tradeguider.com - where the book is called "Master the Markets" and is, I believe, an e-book. You can download the first part of it free, but the free selection doesn't really get into the nitty-gritty. It costs $99.
The tradeguider software has incorporated these Williams/Wyckoff principles. However I believe it you can learn more by using the principles yourself to analyse the markets and, then possibly, to build some alerts into standard charting software.
The original book has a number of typographical errors and errors on the charts. For example it might talk about point (g) on a chart, but really mean point (f), which is a bit off for a £50 work. However the content is valuable and tracking down these errors is a useful lesson in itself.
The principles are very useful and can also be successfully combined with other complementary techniques and analysis.
Charlton
temptrader
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fabius,
It's at Eltham library, well at least it should be there. I don't know what they do to the books I give them, they might redistribute it amongst libraries in the other boroughs. I'll go tomorrow to the library and search it for you.
No, I have not tried to apply Tom's principle myself. I've gained enough experience just watching the markets and having read his work I just was not impressed and chose to forget it.
My major difficulty now with the markets is discipline and learning to keep my head cool - it's the emotions that totally f*ck you up in trading. I'm at around the break even stage now in my darksidding career but even so I still have to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
To be honest with you all Skimbleshanks posts have really helped me a lot, but all this is a lot of hard work.
It's at Eltham library, well at least it should be there. I don't know what they do to the books I give them, they might redistribute it amongst libraries in the other boroughs. I'll go tomorrow to the library and search it for you.
No, I have not tried to apply Tom's principle myself. I've gained enough experience just watching the markets and having read his work I just was not impressed and chose to forget it.
My major difficulty now with the markets is discipline and learning to keep my head cool - it's the emotions that totally f*ck you up in trading. I'm at around the break even stage now in my darksidding career but even so I still have to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
To be honest with you all Skimbleshanks posts have really helped me a lot, but all this is a lot of hard work.
VSATrader,VSATrader said:
I bought this program some years ago along with the book.
My experience with the program was that although the indicators look fantastic when observed after the event, in real life / time (a) the indicators do not appear at the time, only after the event; and (b) when indicators appear that turn out to be wrong they disappear.
I still have the software and, if it can be used to make a lot of money I would like to do so.
Can you assist by explaining to me how I can learn how it works?
Your help will be greatly appreciated.
LII
LevII,
As I understand it the software gives indicators rather than signals.
It analyses bar by bar, and doesn't take account of the context of the 'indicator' eg position in trading channel or position in relation to S/R or etc etc.
It's a great tool to learn vsa with, but it's your skill as a trader (as always I guess) that determines success
Porks
As I understand it the software gives indicators rather than signals.
It analyses bar by bar, and doesn't take account of the context of the 'indicator' eg position in trading channel or position in relation to S/R or etc etc.
It's a great tool to learn vsa with, but it's your skill as a trader (as always I guess) that determines success
Porks
