Volume tells all

Monday 17th

PRU-went sideways as was forecasted it might do. I figured it would go up but not enough demand came in to drive it up.

WPP - up as forecasted.

Both dec 05 emini Dow and emini S&P did what the rules 4&5 suggested they would probally do. They both went up and they both closed high.
 
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Gee it's like you have a crystal ball, fancy picking the direction in a 2 horse race... it's uncanny

I actually took a few short trades today... fighting that sage ole prognosticator volume all the way
 
Fader said:
Gee it's like you have a crystal ball, fancy picking the direction in a 2 horse race... it's uncanny

I actually took a few short trades today... fighting that sage ole prognosticator volume all the way
well it could have went down for crying out loud!.
icon7.gif
What did you short trade in today?

I would like to know what you think it will do tommorrow? The one one you shorted in.
 
Forecasts? Using my old system- the one without volume- I went long in BARC. It crept up a few points. I'm not forecasting, just using a close stop. That, IMO, is the only thing that matters. Getting into the market is purely statistical, the argument for entering has to be right most of the time.

db knows , from his other thread, that I am one of the most sceptical *******s (using language Aussis can understand) about volume under the sun.

Pttrader has put a strong case, which is worthy of study. PRU and WPP are shares that I was long in and got stopped out of. That is why they are under discussion, but I have moved on to others since then.

Split
 
Splitlink said:
Forecasts? Using my old system- the one without volume- I went long in BARC. It crept up a few points. I'm not forecasting, just using a close stop. That, IMO, is the only thing that matters. Getting into the market is purely statistical, the argument for entering has to be right most of the time.

db knows , from his other thread, that I am one of the most sceptical *******s (using language Aussis can understand) about volume under the sun.

Pttrader has put a strong case, which is worthy of study. PRU and WPP are shares that I was long in and got stopped out of. That is why they are under discussion, but I have moved on to others since then.

Split
Thank you for your comments. ) I decided to edit my posts and pull the rules that I had put up there. Not that is matters to anyone as I seriousley doubt that anybody looked at what I said and followed it through (especially the emini posts) except maybe you. It is one thing to discuss with an open mind and another to discuss with a closed mind. No one else offered to give a rational explanation as to why volume doesn't matter. All they did was trash volume.

I appreciate your attitude Split even if I never convinced you. Did you get the rules before I took them off? If you didn't and want them I could PM them to you. I have several more rules but did not post them as there seems to be no interest in keeping an open mind and I did not post them for other reasons also. I too trade with price. In fact I have my own proprietary software strictly for price analysis that does not even look at volume. I just tape read in conjunction with the analysis my software gives me. I daytrade/swing trade stocks, and the emini's futures contracts.

As far as the VSA guy who started this thread well I don't know him and I do not own their software but if folks would take the time to look at his charts he posted they might learn a little about correlating volume with price.

Happy trading and if you ever have any questions about volume and I can help just let me know. I'm off this thread!

Both the emini Dow and emini S&P should trade some higher on tueday than monday 17th's high. Rule number 5. They still have some demand left but it seems to be wanning a little at this point.
 
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pttrader said:
Thank you for your comments. )
Happy trading and if you ever have any questions about volume and I can help just let me know. I'm off this thread!

You can bet that I will, I'm sure that we'll bump into each other from time to time. I downloaded your five rules, thanks.

There was a lot of surplus guff on this thread, it's a fact of life with forums, I suppose. db warned me about going off topic some time back but, afterwards, he said nothing to the others.

Good trading

Split
 
pttrader said:
I decided to edit my posts and pull the rules that I had put up there. Not that is matters to anyone as I seriousley doubt that anybody looked at what I said and followed it through (especially the emini posts) except maybe you. It is one thing to discuss with an open mind and another to discuss with a closed mind. No one else offered to give a rational explanation as to why volume doesn't matter. All they did was trash volume.

Sounds like a bit of the martyr creeping in here ("I'm Only Trying To Help You").

Some will say that volume doesn't matter. This, of course, is patently untrue since without volume there can be no price movement. But what matters more is going beyond bumper-sticker "rules" into an exploration of why and how volume and price correlate. Slavishly following a rule without having the least idea of the circumstances that prompted the rule or the contexts in which the rule most often works or doesn't work leads to the catch as catch can trading typical of the recreational trader.

As to the "forecasting", this is not the point of PV analysis, and those who insist that it is won't benefit much from the study. What matters is the analysis of what is, not the guess of what will be. Focusing on the latter leads to just the sort of equivocation and rationalization which has already cropped up in this thread.

For example, the indices are rising on lighter volume than that on which they fell. Is this a warning? Maybe. Depends on the context. What does "lighter volume" mean? It means less trading activity. But price is rising, which is supposedly "bad". Why?

In order to simplify, you're leaving so much out, making it so much easier for the skeptic to locate flaws in your "analysis" and further reinforcing his conviction that there's nothing to any of this. This is a shame, for by the time he eventually comes around -- or would -- to an understanding of the importance of volume and its relationship to price, he may already be out of the market.

VSA seemed to have an appreciation of the why, but most of the other 160 posts have been what one might charitably call extraneous.

--Db
 
Splitlink said:
db warned me about going off topic some time back but, afterwards, he said nothing to the others.

Good trading

Split

I'm not a moderator, and herding cats is, fortunately, not my problem. If you feel put upon, perhaps that's because you have been one of the most vocal skeptics regarding volume. If you were to spend more time receiving and less being argumentative, you might find remaining on topic to be an easier task.

--Db
 
dbphoenix said:
.............As to the "forecasting", this is not the point of PV analysis, and those who insist that it is won't benefit much from the study. What matters is the analysis of what is, not the guess of what will be. Focusing on the latter leads to just the sort of equivocation and rationalization which has already cropped up in this thread............

--Db

Db

You have said this many times and it always confuses me. Unless pv analysis of the "what is" is just an interesting academic exercise then it must have a purpose for traders. That purpose can only be to support trading decisions and since we cannot trade the past or the present those decisions are all about future direction. Unless one is tossing a coin, traders only enter trades because they anticipate that the price is likely to move in the favoured direction - whether in the next few minutes, hours, days or weeks depending upon their timeframe.

So if it's not ultimately about "forecasting" in some shape or form what is it about? Or have I entirely missed your point (again :LOL: )?

good trading

jon
 
dbphoenix said:
I'm not a moderator, and herding cats is, fortunately, not my problem. If you feel put upon, perhaps that's because you have been one of the most vocal skeptics regarding volume. If you were to spend more time receiving and less being argumentative, you might find remaining on topic to be an easier task.

--Db

OK, point taken. At least, you must admit that you've heard little of me since Pttrader started his analysis of my shares. I suggest that that is because I asked for an opinion and he was good enough to give me one that I found interesting, which was more than I can say for most of the other stuff posted since.

I have always made it clear that I thought that volume should have a place in TA, although I have been unable to find a good use for it so, whenever new ideas come along I shall be there to read them.

I still tune into your thread, by the way, and reserve the right to post , but not to annoy, deliberately, at least .

Split
 
barjon said:
Db

You have said this many times and it always confuses me. Unless pv analysis of the "what is" is just an interesting academic exercise then it must have a purpose for traders. That purpose can only be to support trading decisions and since we cannot trade the past or the present those decisions are all about future direction. Unless one is tossing a coin, traders only enter trades because they anticipate that the price is likely to move in the favoured direction - whether in the next few minutes, hours, days or weeks depending upon their timeframe.

So if it's not ultimately about "forecasting" in some shape or form what is it about? Or have I entirely missed your point (again :LOL: )?

good trading

jon

You haven't been able to understand the difference between forecasting based on some bar or bar pair or pattern and implementing a trading plan. To say, for example, that price will or is likely to trade up after a hammer (or, if you prefer, an "upbar" on "high volume" after two or more "downbars" on "increasing" volume; "hammer" is, after all, shorthand) is a duh. But it has no meaning in terms of a trading strategy unless one has at least some idea -- and preferably a tested and clear idea -- of what the probabilities are that price will in fact trade up and of the probable extent of the move, all of which is necessarily tied to the trader's aggressiveness and risk tolerance, and all of which is learned through research and testing, not "rules" which tell you what you could have made last Tuesday, or that "there was money to be made" last Friday (or whenever).

I've "called" the last two turning points in advance, but so what unless the trader has some plan in place to take advantage of those turning points. Instead, thousands of posts are devoted to the subject of what's going to happen next when very few pay any attention whatsoever to what's happening right in front of them. Therefore, they are generally (a) unprepared and (b) late, both of which increase risk.

Using the weekly and daily charts of the NYSE, for example, how does one use what he knows of the dynamics of volume and of price and volume relationships to decide which swing low he's going to buy, if any, and in real time, not what he should have done last week or last month? If he hasn't the slightest idea, then all the hindsight analysis is pointless.

--Db
 
dbphoenix said:
You haven't been able to understand the difference between forecasting based on some bar or bar pair or pattern and implementing a trading plan. To say, for example, that price will or is likely to trade up after a hammer (or, if you prefer, an "upbar" on "high volume" after two or more "downbars" on "increasing" volume; "hammer" is, after all, shorthand) is a duh. But it has no meaning in terms of a trading strategy unless one has at least some idea -- and preferably a tested and clear idea -- of what the probabilities are that price will in fact trade up and of the probable extent of the move, all of which is necessarily tied to the trader's aggressiveness and risk tolerance, and all of which is learned through research and testing, not "rules" which tell you what you could have made last Tuesday, or that "there was money to be made" last Friday (or whenever).

I've "called" the last two turning points in advance, but so what unless the trader has some plan in place to take advantage of those turning points. Instead, thousands of posts are devoted to the subject of what's going to happen next when very few pay any attention whatsoever to what's happening right in front of them. Therefore, they are generally (a) unprepared and (b) late, both of which increase risk.

Using the weekly and daily charts of the NYSE, for example, how does one use what he knows of the dynamics of volume and of price and volume relationships to decide which swing low he's going to buy, if any, and in real time, not what he should have done last week or last month? If he hasn't the slightest idea, then all the hindsight analysis is pointless.

--Db

A very misleading post and I assume not intentional but the result of muddled thinking.

An effective bullish hammer records high volume on the down bar and low volume on the up bar and not as you say.

Aggressiveness and risk tolerance does not come into the equation, but what does count is complete "knowing" and the ability to act upon it.

The rest is OK.
 
SOCRATES said:
An effective bullish hammer records high volume on the down bar and low volume on the up bar and not as you say.

Incorrect, as usual.

But anyone who's interested needn't rely on what anybody else thinks or says. Research it yourself. Learn the characteristics of successful hammers and unsuccessful "hammers". Otherwise, you'll be vulnerable to whatever misinformation is strewn about.

--Db
 
Nobody knows anything. Probabilities is what it is all about and keep your stops close until you move into profit.The only forecasting possible is based on the porcentage of times a similar trade has succeeded.

Split
 
dbphoenix said:
.......................You haven't been able to understand the difference between forecasting based on some bar or bar pair or pattern and implementing a trading plan.............. .

--Db


Db

Thanks.

I think I do understand the extracted bit, or I like to think I do anyway. Nevertheless, a trading plan incorporates a set-up and I find it difficult to see how that isn't a "forecast". It is not an if X then Y will follow type forecast, but an if X then there's a z% probability of Y following type. Or am I just discussing semantics?

good trading

jon
 
barjon said:
Db

Thanks.

I think I do understand the extracted bit, or I like to think I do anyway. Nevertheless, a trading plan incorporates a set-up and I find it difficult to see how that isn't a "forecast". It is not an if X then Y will follow type forecast, but an if X then there's a z% probability of Y following type. Or am I just discussing semantics?

good trading

jon

There are two distinct parts to what you quoted but you're applying the term "forecast" to both. One can call it "glommitch" if he likes, but the difference lies in bias and ego vs availability and egolessness. The concept is separate from the language used to describe it.

--Db.
 
pttrader said:
well it could have went down for crying out loud!.
icon7.gif
What did you short trade in today?

I would like to know what you think it will do tommorrow? The one one you shorted in.
If i'm in a trade longer than 2 minutes something has gone fugazi
 
As a general rule, I'll not be commenting on comments on comments as that can often lead places there's no point anyone going and it does direct time, energy and effort away from the real business at hand, but I couldn't let this one slip by.

This statement quoted below was just casually slipped in amongst others, which is a really good place to 'hide' things that are important, a few posts back.

I'm probably then doing the poster a disservice by drawing your attention to it, but it summarizes so elegantly such an enormous swathe of what I have expounded on at great length recently in another thread it deserves your attention. It certainly grabbed mine.

dbphoenix said:
thousands of posts are devoted to the subject of what's going to happen next when very few pay any attention whatsoever to what's happening right in front of them.
This, to my rekindled shame, is what happens when you flunk Composition - 101.
 
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