Best Thread US day traders thread.

compoundup said:
I'm using 3 15" tfts at 1024 x 768 driven off a Parhelia 128MB card (Matrox)

In eSignal to highlight MMs, right click over the level 2 screen and select "Market Makers..." you can then change highlighted colours. This directly affects the associated T&S display. I like it in a light colour with the quote changes barely visible so that they don't distract from actual trades going through.

Notice the associations:
Goldmans - Green
Lehman - Lavender
Merrill - Yellow (mellow?)
MorganS - Brown - can't remember why DARK RUM?
Nite - Black !
Citigroup - Cyan
UBS - Red - the first one I ever highlighted, though for all that they are frequently the Ax they must do most of their trading through ECNs because IMHO they aren't often seen at the top of the order book.

Edward

Hi Edward,

Thank you

I can highlight the MM's in the L2 but they don't come across in the T&S. I only have the time, price and volume. When I turn on MM's, nothingcomes up in the T&S in that column. I only have the actual trades coming through though. Does this make a difference?

James
 
lwebb said:
Superb discussion on Level II. It brings up a particular question which which I'd like some help in understanding: why would a MM reveal his intention to buy/sell a stock?

Given that MMs transact large numbers of shares for clients, they have to slice & dice their market activity into smaller chunks, otherwise the price moves away from them. If they show themselves (the story) it's counterproductive. Contrarywise, it makes more sense for them to show themselves when moving the price to a desired entry buy/sell level. But again, if they do that consistently it gives the game away.

So, is apparant MM activity about misdirection, or are there situations where being seen to act helps them.


Hi lwebb

IMO, L2 play is more of an art than a science and can be very contradictory. As DVDH said, why would an MM want to show their hand and put themselves at a disadvantage. Sometimes, IMO, when they have an order to fill they don't have time to muck about playing games, flipping from bid to ask, but they will rarely, possibly never show the number of shares they have to fill. Normally they will maintain 100 shares and will rarely come in on the inside and do the business. The story unfolds away from the inside! But again, this depends on who the MM is. As compound mentioned, UBSS is rarely seen at the inside. Each MM has different tactics of playing L2. It just takes time to read each MM. T&S is the key area to watch, and if his 100 shares keeps on getting refreshed, then he has a big order.

There are times when they will act in order to help them drive a stock up in order to sell at a higher price. Remember they are already long.

I always remember, if something looks obvious, then it is most likely the opposite. As Naz mentioned earlier, big bids to spoof you into buying etc.

Pitbull
 
LII - Plus ca change

It's been a good day for pair trading and based on the relative quiet on this thread, not a particularly dizzy day for you gap, news and directional traders.

On the LII front, which seems to be an underlying theme today, I'd like to quote from someone who was watching LII before LII existed. And particularly on the topic of 'Manipulation'.

"The element of manipulation need not discourage anyone. Manipulators are giant traders, wearing seven-leagued boots. The trained ear can detect the steady "clump, clump" as they progress, and the footprints are recognized in the fluctuations and the quantities of stock appearing on the tape. Little fellows are at liberty to tiptoe wherever the footprints lead, but they must be careful the giants do not turn quickly."

As with most things - it's only easy after you know how.
 
it's absoulutely great reading this thread after a long time and seen so much subjectivity surrrounding L2. That's what it's all about 'OPINIONS'. Different thoughts, analysis and emotions.

What do you guys think of NYSE stocks do you guys know how to read the specialist. NYSE unlike the Nasdaq is not a fragmented market, it's dealt with by one specialist.

knowing how to read the specialist, can be a great edge and allows you to move size about unlike Nasdaq stocks.

any comments!
 
Iwebb,

why would a MM reveal his intention to buy/sell a stock?

This will depend upon the MM in question, the stock being traded and the time in either the accumulation or distribution phase of the cycle they are in for the stock they are trading. MM differ from each other and some, such as GSCO, are especially manipulative (in my view) whilst others are not and as such are not as concerned that you know their intentions.

However, my experience has clearly shown me that there is definitely not a one size fits all approach to all MM behaviour when using Level II


Paul
 
great discussion guys!

OK guys here’s my first educational piece.
What is a headfake?

Well a headfake is where a MM fools a lot of other traders into thinking, that the price is about to go one way and when it does go the way he wanted it to go, he transacts his “real” trade.

Imagine top MM SAMT has an order from a client to buy 100,000 in GOOG. Now he wants to get these at the best possible price, so the devious SAMT says to himself how can I drive the price lower before I buy the shares for my client.

He goes on the offer and offers 10000 at the inside, lots of traders spot this and think eye eye! and via ECN’s jump ahead of SAMT on the offer. All of a sudden there appears to be a heck of a lot of liquidity on the sell side.

Just to re-enforce the message SAMT lowers his bid price. Novice traders spotting this and via ECN’s follow suite and lower their bids. GOOG begins to tank but SAMT stands his ground on the offer, more and more novice traders short GOOG thinking they are shadowing the AX. Traders thinking the stock is about to tank, also lower their bids further.

The price spikes down as no one-one wants to buy. But wait!! all of a sudden an ECN appears on the bid buying everything in sight, huge buy prints hit the tape, novice traders who shorted are squeezed and cover in panic having realised SAMT’s real intentions.

By risking 10,000 at the original inside offer, devious SAMT was able to force the price down and work his clients order at a much lower price than would have been the case if he hadn’t used the tactic

Note all this can happen in a blink of an eye.

I know its pretty basic stuff but it just helped me clarify a few things and it might just help some newbie in years to come.
 
One thing about level 2 is that its level 2 direct access. The direct access part always seems to get forgotten.

For traders that manually work their orders the direct access part is a key component. They are always watching the body of movement and will spot things before many others because thats their trading screen.

I had a scalper recently that i had to help on a 1-2-1 because he relied to much on the charts and not enough on assessing the movements within the screen. When he had to do more of that and less time getting analysis paralysis from his one minute charts he started seeing things much clearer and trading better.

There are times when i look at level 2 from a scalpers point of view, then check the chart and sometimes i laugh at how a one minute chart has lied about the move, because a chart takes its prints from the time and sales and not from what the real action is doing.

Many times in the day there are just small moves to be taken and added up to make a days money. Its in human nature to want to get the bigger moves and in thinking about doing that many wait for to much chart confirmation to enter, that is their down fall, the move is over the scalper banks his profit and the chartist takes a loss when his stop is hit.

My recommendation is use a chart to search for a potential set up. Then forget the chart and zoom down to level 2 for the best entry, then take and manage the trade within the screen. If its a small move you should nail it, if its not working you'll know first and be out with hardly any loss. If it turns into a big move thats a good bonus. Try to think how a level 2 direct access trader would act, rather than an intra day chartist that adds level 2, that way when the bigger moves aren't there you'll nail enough to make a days money.

Naz
 
jimmy1jag said:
Hi Edward,

Thank you

I can highlight the MM's in the L2 but they don't come across in the T&S. I only have the time, price and volume. When I turn on MM's, nothingcomes up in the T&S in that column. I only have the actual trades coming through though. Does this make a difference?

James

James

You have to configure your Time and Sales screen, so it receives Bid and Ask quotes, as well as Trades.
 
PitBull said:
James

You have to configure your Time and Sales screen, so it receives Bid and Ask quotes, as well as Trades.

Hi Lee, thanks for that.

I switched the quotes part off a while back as it rarely seemed to tell me anything. I'll have a tinker with it and see if I can get it to do something meaningful, i.e. get rid of the "noise". I'm wary about having too much info available as it can lead to analysis to paralysis leading to me missing the trade. And thinking aloud, I could have 1 T&S screen switched on for trades only and 1 for quotes only. I'll have a look see!
 
Naz is one of the few people on these boards that makes sense. Good points, Naz, on using charts as a road map and not as a basis for the actual trading decision.

I would add to Naz' points that even if you are not scalping, the risk averse mode of thought that Level II provides you with makes you a better trader in all timeframes.



Naz said:
One thing about level 2 is that its level 2 direct access. The direct access part always seems to get forgotten.

For traders that manually work their orders the direct access part is a key component. They are always watching the body of movement and will spot things before many others because thats their trading screen.

I had a scalper recently that i had to help on a 1-2-1 because he relied to much on the charts and not enough on assessing the movements within the screen. When he had to do more of that and less time getting analysis paralysis from his one minute charts he started seeing things much clearer and trading better.

There are times when i look at level 2 from a scalpers point of view, then check the chart and sometimes i laugh at how a one minute chart has lied about the move, because a chart takes its prints from the time and sales and not from what the real action is doing.

Many times in the day there are just small moves to be taken and added up to make a days money. Its in human nature to want to get the bigger moves and in thinking about doing that many wait for to much chart confirmation to enter, that is their down fall, the move is over the scalper banks his profit and the chartist takes a loss when his stop is hit.

My recommendation is use a chart to search for a potential set up. Then forget the chart and zoom down to level 2 for the best entry, then take and manage the trade within the screen. If its a small move you should nail it, if its not working you'll know first and be out with hardly any loss. If it turns into a big move thats a good bonus. Try to think how a level 2 direct access trader would act, rather than an intra day chartist that adds level 2, that way when the bigger moves aren't there you'll nail enough to make a days money.

Naz
 
PitBull said:
OK Guys,

As this is an open forum so we all learn from each other, and seeing as Im feeling kind and generous, heres some stuff on tape reading NYSE stocks and MM tricks over on US site Elitetrader.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...age=6&highlight=reading the tape&pagenumber=1

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...hat orders to use in fast market&pagenumber=3

I must add that I have had no Level 2 training and what I say is all my own opinion from what I have researched and learnt.

Cheers Lee!
 
Even though NasdaqTrader.com details the monthly share volume in order to identify the axe, the primary axe may not be "out to play". So, if it says GSCO is the axe, and he is not active on the L2 screen, but rather a passive buyer or seller, then I will pass on him, as he is not showing me anything. Again, this is my own opinion.

Is this share volume info from Nasdaqtrader.com now subject to a fee ?

I seem to remember getting this info free of charge from this site not long ago but I can't seem to get it any longer.
 
Naz said:
.......
There are times when i look at level 2 from a scalpers point of view, then check the chart and sometimes i laugh at how a one minute chart has lied about the move, because a chart takes its prints from the time and sales and not from what the real action is doing.

.....

Naz

:eek:

im confused with this.

you imply that time & sales is 'not from what the real action is doing'. if time and sales is not the real action, what is?

to suggest that level 2 or dom is the real action would be misleading imo, because what is there is mostly untradeable/phantom stuff perhaps with the exception of the inside bid/ask

i look forward to enlightenment!
 
For anyone:

How do you get charts attached to your messages? Can they come from any source, such as barcharts.com, etc.
 
I agree with charliechan that T&S can't actually lie - every trade printing and the context of these prints tells a story; you can't spoof a print like you can a bid or offer - but it can be misinterpreted.

If a burst of selling (perhaps near an area where there should be some obvious stops) is designed to cause further selling for the purpose of pro scaling out of shorts then the chart may show a tempting (to retail) down candle that is actually a false short signal which traps weak retail shorts into position to provide more fuel for the subsequent up move.

So although the T&S and chart shows selling pressure causing the price to temporarily fall, perhaps what Naz means is that for him the true intent of the pros can still be hard to discern without seeing how the trap was constructed on Level 2?
 
"im confused with this.

you imply that time & sales is 'not from what the real action is doing'. if time and sales is not the real action, what is?

to suggest that level 2 or dom is the real action would be misleading imo, because what is there is mostly untradeable/phantom stuff perhaps with the exception of the inside bid/ask"

I think - someone please correct me if I'm wrong - that charts are constructed from T&S data - and that if prices are changing rapidly T& S and, consequently, charts, may be out of date whereas level 2 shows the current situation.
 
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