UK s/b tax changes

[amelie]

Hi all - would be interested in your opinions on this.
I trade cfds and sb gold using city index.
I have a strategy which works fine but I generally steer clear of sbs unless there is a special reason as I don't want to be closed out overnight crystallising a loss.
On 14/4 their system is changing so this will no longer happen. It is good for me but when I enquired why they did this (ie crystallised with a rolling spread) I was told that their had to be a break so sbs could be classed as gambling and attract no tax on gains. Therefore, will they now? Has there been a change in the law?

 

[amelie]

No answers? Either a very difficult question or a very stupid one. Whichever it is, does anyone know?
City index said the change was as a result of changes in the law. Does anyone know?

 

[The Leopard]

It sounds like utter ballocks to me. It's not gambling because it closes every night. It's gambling because it's gambling.

Of greater concern is the fact that you're using City Index. Stop it.

 

[amelie]

It sounds like utter ballocks to me. It's not gambling because it closes every night. It's gambling because it's gambling.

Of greater concern is the fact that you're using City Index. Stop it.

Well not quite, is it. Capital gains is payable on profits from cfds but not sbs. Well in the UK it is. I don't know where you are based. My cfd profits have breached the tax threshold so if I can change to sbs and not pay any tax that would be great. And if sbs are no longer rolled over, crystallising any loss with CityIndex, then I can go short or long with no penalty and no tax.
Seems quite an important change to me, but maybe because it fits my trading style.
City Index isn't that bad. I've only ever had one problem with them and that was 2 days ago when I am convinced they put in a false spike. But hey, that's life.

 

[The Leopard]

Well not quite, is it. Capital gains is payable on profits from cfds but not sbs. Well in the UK it is. I don't know where you are based. My cfd profits have breached the tax threshold so if I can change to sbs and not pay any tax that would be great. And if sbs are no longer rolled over, crystallising any loss with CityIndex, then I can go short or long with no penalty and no tax.
Seems quite an important change to me, but maybe because it fits my trading style.
City Index isn't that bad. I've only ever had one problem with them and that was 2 days ago when I am convinced they put in a false spike. But hey, that's life.

No, what I mean is what they're saying is utter ballocks.

A false spike, and "that's life"? Seriously?

If you really want to use SB, you need to ditch these third rate bucket shops. Have a look at someone like FP Markets or one of those.

 

[amelie]

No, what I mean is what they're saying is utter ballocks.

A false spike, and "that's life"? Seriously?

If you really want to use SB, you need to ditch these third rate bucket shops. Have a look at someone like FP Markets or one of those.

Thanks, FP look interesting. Currently their minimum gold contract is too large for me but it appears they may change that soon.

Referring to "that's life" I get as pissed off as anyone if someone tries to rip me off but because of the way I trade, I regard that false spike as them against me. Which I look at as fun competition rather than getting wound up as I would have done in the past. Now I know, I won't get caught out again. I wouldn't have got caught out that time but I broke one of my rules. So I regard it as much my fault as theirs. I quickly followed it up with another mistake, again breaking one of my rules, so even though they were in the wrong. I made it far worse for myself and learnt a useful lesson. Lost about a grand I think. Buy hey another day another opportunity.

Not that you're interested I'm sure, but it's just one of those things that makes trading enjoyable, revealing and moulding your own philosophy and psychology.
Contra mundem etc.

 

[The Leopard]

I'm speechless, frankly. You're trading at a level where you can lose a grand on a single trade. You catch the bucket shop out trying to cheat you, and you seek to make a virtue of the fact that you're going to ignore it? What else might they be cheating you on that you're not aware of?

If you take trading as a serious endeavour, it is imperative to have a broker that is at the very least trustworthy. "Fun competition", "as much my fault as theirs", "one of those things that makes trading enjoyable"! You must enjoy squandering money.

Seriously, get your head out of your a$$. The moment something like that happens, if you're sure it's not right you move to a different broker.

Thanks, FP look interesting. Currently their minimum gold contract is too large for me but it appears they may change that soon.

Referring to "that's life" I get as pissed off as anyone if someone tries to rip me off but because of the way I trade, I regard that false spike as them against me. Which I look at as fun competition rather than getting wound up as I would have done in the past. Now I know, I won't get caught out again. I wouldn't have got caught out that time but I broke one of my rules. So I regard it as much my fault as theirs. I quickly followed it up with another mistake, again breaking one of my rules, so even though they were in the wrong. I made it far worse for myself and learnt a useful lesson. Lost about a grand I think. Buy hey another day another opportunity.

Not that you're interested I'm sure, but it's just one of those things that makes trading enjoyable, revealing and moulding your own philosophy and psychology.
Contra mundem etc.

 

[Shakone]

It's a good attitude to take responsibility for that loss and to learn from it. Unfortunately amelie, as Leopard points out, you don't seem to have learned the full lesson from it. You broke your rules, fine, you're responsible for that. You're ALSO responsible for who you trade with, and in this case, if what you say is true, your spreadbet company has cheated you. The lesson to be learned is to find a better broker. Because if it happens again, it's not their fault they cheat you, it's yours for sticking with them.

As for the spreadbetting law, this is all quite confusing, and at times it's not that clear at all what the difference is between spreadbetting and trading. However, I would say that a bet needs to have a closing date by which the bet is resolved one way or another. This is probably what they meant about the closing overnight. There seems no reason that a bet needs to be resolved overnight though.

 

[amelie]

It's a good attitude to take responsibility for that loss and to learn from it. Unfortunately amelie, as Leopard points out, you don't seem to have learned the full lesson from it. You broke your rules, fine, you're responsible for that. You're ALSO responsible for who you trade with, and in this case, if what you say is true, your spreadbet company has cheated you. The lesson to be learned is to find a better broker. Because if it happens again, it's not their fault they cheat you, it's yours for sticking with them.

As for the spreadbetting law, this is all quite confusing, and at times it's not that clear at all what the difference is between spreadbetting and trading. However, I would say that a bet needs to have a closing date by which the bet is resolved one way or another. This is probably what they meant about the closing overnight. There seems no reason that a bet needs to be resolved overnight though.

Thank you for this. Again, very interesting and I don’t disagree. As soon as the particular event occurred I started demos with other companies as frankly it was taking the **** so although I may be relaxed about what happened, or perhaps accept it rather than getting riled, it is unlikely it will happen again. Firstly as I am wise to it and secondly as I am very likely to try another couple of companies once I have closed out my present cfds. My only interest in sb is the tax position and at present I can’t run long term positions on sb with CityIndex as I can with cfds because they would crystallise any position positive or negative overnight.
I should have got really quite pissed off with them tbh. FOMC released last week and between one and two minutes after the release Gold shot up $5 only to reverse. No sign of that on any charts or the Live spot price. ******s eh!

On another question entirely, has anyone ever looked into the, for want of a better word, the “mystical” aspect of trading. Without wanting to appear like a complete fruitcake I used to do a lot of research into esoterica, clairvoyance, hypnagogia etc and tried various experiments with some curious results. You’ll have heard of those well attested stories of missing persons found by using pendulums and maps of course. Now I wonder. Should I run a demo account based on an empirical implementation of such knowledge? Might be interesting. Certainly fun.
Reminds me of the story by D H Lawrence, “Rocking Horse Winner” I believe it was called. Ah I recall those innocent days when I placed my first bet on Corbiere in the National and with the winnings I bought my first leather jacket. Innocent days.

Perhaps I am trading too much and need a holiday?

 

[amelie]

Yes Leopard, you are probably right. I should take my head out of my ass. For some reason I just don't find that offensive. Experience I suppose. I have been banned from so many forums I just don't take anything seriously anymore. I have my gold, I have my food supplies and I have my land, anything that happens to the fiat stuff in the meantime is just so much fluff. It is just a tool. I've probably lived too long, just got too angry and emotional in the past when things went wrong, and yet wind life on just a little bit further and I started to see that for every bad thing that happened, something good always, but always, came out of it, so now I just wait and see.
To take an example. I never read trading forums until last week as everybody advises you not to. It seemed like good advice. I have certainly never posted. And now here I am reading a forum, and receiving some apparently useful advice to seek out a proper broker. Now if I hadn't lost that grand, I would never have bothered, would I? Anyway a grand? (I include in that figure the opportunity cost of not reversing my bet when I stopped it out and saw what they had done by the way - in fact it would be more like two grand ) I can't be that much of an ass though as I certainly don't expect to win every time.

 

[amelie]

I see your point Leopard but I really am not trying to make a virtue of ignoring the fact that the Co cheated me. What would you do in my position? I’ve taken too many people to court in the past and it is true what they say, it is expensive, stressful and one should really spend one’s time doing something more productive.
Honestly. What would you have done? I’m happy to learn from you.
Of course I don’t enjoy squandering money. That is a bit of a silly thing to say.
Mmmm, “trustworthy broker”. That is a bit black and white isn’t it? I trust no one.
Is that like “intelligent Guardianista” and other non sequiters?

 

[amelie]

FP as you say, do look very interesting and when they offer the product I want, I may well use them.
I haven't researched them fully yet but looking on this forum, their self effacing honesty, their bluffness, just makes my antennae quiver. I may well be wrong. I shall do further research.

 

[The Leopard]

I see your point Leopard but I really am not trying to make a virtue of ignoring the fact that the Co cheated me. What would you do in my position? I’ve taken too many people to court in the past and it is true what they say, it is expensive, stressful and one should really spend one’s time doing something more productive.
Honestly. What would you have done? I’m happy to learn from you.
Of course I don’t enjoy squandering money. That is a bit of a silly thing to say.
Mmmm, “trustworthy broker”. That is a bit black and white isn’t it? I trust no one.
Is that like “intelligent Guardianista” and other non sequiters?

Fair enough. What would I have done? If there is jiggery pokery going on, well they're regulated firms, so I'd kick up a fuss, threaten them with the FSA and the ombudsman, and so on. But that is really unimportant.

The main thing I would do is close my account and move to a different broker. The key thing for me is that they make money from me trading, not from me losing.

 

[The Leopard]

FP as you say, do look very interesting and when they offer the product I want, I may well use them.
I haven't researched them fully yet but looking on this forum, their self effacing honesty, their bluffness, just makes my antennae quiver. I may well be wrong. I shall do further research.

I'm looking into them as well. They're new in the UK, but have been going in Australia for a while.

I hope this model succeeds, because it seems to offer an ideal solution for me. Whether FP is any good or not, I don't know. The only other one as far as I know is ibetfinancials.