Trading for a living & taxes in the Netherlands

[soldintime]

DHB,

That is good news. I will read the court case ( I can read dutch) and see what it is about. I do trade for a living and I am profitable since I started trading 3 years ago. I don't know if I would move back to the Netherlands. I have been away for 13 years and I am no longer liable for the Dutch Inheritance TAX, it takes 10 years of being away from Holland to be not liable.

I will be checking Andorra out soon to find out if it is a good place to be in.

 

[DHB]

DHB,

That is good news. I will read the court case ( I can read dutch) and see what it is about. I do trade for a living and I am profitable since I started trading 3 years ago. I don't know if I would move back to the Netherlands. I have been away for 13 years and I am no longer liable for the Dutch Inheritance TAX, it takes 10 years of being away from Holland to be not liable.

I will be checking Andorra out soon to find out if it is a good place to be in.

To me, it sounds like there's no need for you to move back to Holland, unless you're homesick or something, but that would have to be a case of extremely late onset homesickness, wouldn't it?

There are so many places that are more appealing than the Netherlands to live in. I wouldn't miss the 10 out of 12 months of grey, windy, rainy weather for a second once I would have moved on to greener pastures.

Keep us informed about your findings about Andorra. The combination of sun, mountains and potential fiscal friendliness sounds like a good one!

 

[soldintime]

It always comes down to the kids. Holland scored the number one position in the UN happy kids index. Where Malta where I am based now ranks at the bottom for European countries.

Malta has got good weather and is also very tax friendly for foreigners. However I find island life a bit difficult. Especially at the weekends when there is no trading. Soon you will have seen it all. So yes it is time to check out some other destinations. I will be checking out Andorra in May. I like the fact of 2 seasons. A warm summer with a cold winter with skiing possibilities. Negatives are the fact that I will need to learn a new language Catalan.

Groetjes

Soldintime

 

[metapin]

Malta is brilliant for Traders. They have a non-domicile taxation which is excellent for foreigners moving there. They do not tax overseas income as long as that income is not remitted within the same tax year. So when the new tax year starts Income from previous year can be remitted free of tax to Malta.

Other benefits are low rent, I rent a 4 bedroom 5 bathroom house with 5 car garage and a 13 meter pool for €1000 a month. No council taxes. The only high tax is on buying a car. I have not paid a cent of tax. Childcare is a joke at €1 an hour. Beer is 1.10 and so is capuchino.

Of course you will be stripped of any benefits, pension and health. So you need to sort that out yourself.

Self-tax-Advisors?

Where have you read this law in Malta? this is a PURE illusion of do-it-your-self reading of laws.

Malta residents are taxed always on capital gains, at rate of 35%! (wow the highest in Europe), even if they apply for non domiciled scheme that is really avaible. In each case where a trader produce income as you do doing trading from Malta, you will be taxable. The unique way to be not taxed is that as happen in UK for example (and even here I have raed wrong interpretation of the law) you can have investiments abroad and are managed buy advisors, funds and so on, that do not belong to you and are professionally doing this. So for example an hedge fund could be ok or a managed account. Unfortunately this is not the case of over 99% of traders, self traders, looking to find a nice place where to pay 0% capital gain tax.

In Malta everybody pay capital gan taxes as self trader and for that there are very few traders that are residents elsewhere than Malta.

Be aware!

 

[metapin]

Hittfeld,

So basically what you're saying is that, as long as you've got some form of other income (albeit for the record, since your primary source of income would be your monthly trading profits), your trading income is seen as investing gains (beleggingswinsten) and as such, only taxed @ 1.2%?

Secondly, what exactly did you mean by a "self-created day-job"? Self-employed (eenmanszaak or something)? Or just some ordinary part-time job?

Regards,
Boy

I read the tax system for capital gains in Holland.

They state 1,2% on the net capitals/investments used to realized a profit, so if you have an account of 100.000 EUR, you will pay around 1.200 eur tax.

Would be to nice... 1,2% on profits realized, assuming a 10% profit in the year this will be equal to a 0,12% only.

1,2% tax on Net assets is really good however I was just investigating in this and found other forums/posts with incorrect informations about other countries.

 

[FordTimelord]

Well, I've been doing some more research into this matter, and it seems that traders might actually get away with only paying capital gains tax (box III) of 1.2% on trading profits.

On the website rechtspraak.nl, which is the website that publishes Dutch court decisions (which are only in Dutch unfortunately for those who don't speak the language. Don't know if google translate can be of any help with judicial jargon...), take a look at case AWB 07/2843 (search for the bold case number and you should be able to find it without any difficulty).

<SNIP/>

Wow, this is incredible information, thanks. I am going to try to get my trading profits taxed in Box 3; let's see.

 

[soldintime]

I am Dutch and I had a read through it. Basically a professional options trader with 20 years+ experience started trading for himself and made losses of €300K+ over 2 years. And tried to use these losses to deduct his tax. The court ruled against it.

The reverse is that profits will also not be taxed. Bar the 1.2% CGT.

 

[Hittfeld]

Hi soldintime, left Malta for Andorra? How`s life there? Tax ca 12%???

Regards

 

[soldintime]

I left Malta 2 years ago for Andorra. Love it here and 0% tax. Trading and snowboarding, good schools for kids.

 

[soldintime]

Funny the flag on my profile is the Malta flag but when you hover over it it says Andorra.

 

[Hittfeld]

I hate snowboarding, actually anything with snow -- but I love the tax regime you describe. What are the requirements nowadays??

Thanks

 

[cyrilmac]

Dear traders and those interested in trading,


My name is Cyril and I'm a law student from Maastricht (not Dutch, unfortunately, but British). I'm currently starting to work on my Bachelor thesis, and the area of law I would like to focus on is international income and business taxation. More specifically, I think I might want to write on the countries which are most suitable and profitable for traders in terms of tax regulations. What I have noticed is that there are reams of information, personal accounts and comments on the best countries to trade in, with the lowest or no tax at all, but none of that information is thoroughly researched and easily available to traders. Would any of you traders benefit from such work? What I mean, would such research (although, not particularly extensive as it's not a PhD thesis, but just a Bachelor capstone) be interesting to you?

Moreover, I also wonder if any of you would be willing to stay in touch with me as I'm progressing with my thesis? You've traded for quite some time and it seems you have had to deal with various tax regulations with regard to trading. Would you care to share some of your knowledge and expertise with me? I want to produce a thesis that is useful and not just an odd 20K words of incompetent blabber. I take my work very seriously and that is why I've been looking for advice and guidance far and wide, even before I've begun researching and writing the thesis.

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Cyril

 

[FordTimelord]

Would any of you traders benefit from such work? What I mean, would such research (although, not particularly extensive as it's not a PhD thesis, but just a Bachelor capstone) be interesting to you?

Yes, of course.

Would you care to share some of your knowledge and expertise with me?

I'm not sure how much expertise different people have but I imagine there would be no issue with sharing stuff per se, as long as it was anonymous; I'm not sure how you would manage that. For all we know, you could be the taxman on a fishing expedition, something that they do not just regularly, but as a core and necessary element of their work. All that said, I think a decent look at the pro's and cons of various jurisdictions for trading purposes (taking into account the different treatment of, say, spreadbetting, CFDs, futures, forex etc.), things such as income tax vs capital gains tax, corporation tax, etc. would be extremely useful and arguably long-overdue.

 

[Piyayo]

Great information on this thread!

I´ve been reading it carefully as I want to move to other country because here in Spain the government has gone crazy and raised the taxes so much for the capital gains.

Actually I was planning to move to Netherlands.

I´ve talked to the Belastingdienst (Dutch Tax Office) many times and I don´t have the impression that they are sure about how trading capital gains are taxed. If I only ask about hot to tax my capital gains they always answer me that they are taxed in box3 (1.2%).

But if I explain to them that I trade for my living, that I do it everyday and that capital gains are my only income, they start to doubt and a Belastindienst supervisor even told me that it could be considered to be taxed in box1.

He sayd that my income is like "my job". I consider this completely unfair because capital gains are not taxed in Netherlands and they try to tax you if you live of your trading.

Anyway, besides my information, I think it´s more important the experience of anyone who lives in the Netherlands and pay taxes there.

Could anyone give more information or tell his experience with this? please.

Does anyone knows if the tax law has changed in any direction?

Many thanks in advance for your help.


P.D: soldintime, I will send you a private asking you about Andorra

 

[Jack o'Clubs]

Yes, I lived there. If you're trading, not investing, then you are generating income and this will be taxed under 'Box 1', ie income tax. This is very expensive, from memory 52% above a top rate which kicks in above a low bar (about EUR35k). Holland has some very favourable tax rates for companies, particularly those that trade assets (it is a nation whose wealth derived from trading after all), but I've no experience of that and you should seek professional advice from an accountant. In any case you'll need to draw out cash to live on and this will be taxed as income. You might be better off in Belgium which has no capital gains tax if you can persuade them what you're doing is investing not trading (and yes, it is a fine line). On the other hand, we've not seen the sun for six months, it's still freezing cold in mid-May and it's bucketing down as I write. Are you sure you want to move from Spain...?!

Great information on this thread!

I´ve been reading it carefully as I want to move to other country because here in Spain the government has gone crazy and raised the taxes so much for the capital gains.

Actually I was planning to move to Netherlands.

I´ve talked to the Belastingdienst (Dutch Tax Office) many times and I don´t have the impression that they are sure about how trading capital gains are taxed. If I only ask about hot to tax my capital gains they always answer me that they are taxed in box3 (1.2%).

But if I explain to them that I trade for my living, that I do it everyday and that capital gains are my only income, they start to doubt and a Belastindienst supervisor even told me that it could be considered to be taxed in box1.

He sayd that my income is like "my job". I consider this completely unfair because capital gains are not taxed in Netherlands and they try to tax you if you live of your trading.

Anyway, besides my information, I think it´s more important the experience of anyone who lives in the Netherlands and pay taxes there.

Could anyone give more information or tell his experience with this? please.

Does anyone knows if the tax law has changed in any direction?

Many thanks in advance for your help.


P.D: soldintime, I will send you a private asking you about Andorra

 

[Piyayo]

The court decission that DHB provided gives some hope!

DHB any more information about this?

Jack o´Clubs, I prefer having less sun in mi life and more money in my pocket, hehehehe. Is not fair to pay half of what to make to the state. Capital gains should be taxed anywhere because you gain that with money that had already been taxed also.

By the way, anyone trading from the Netherlands that could give more information please????

 

[geesmee]

Hey guy's,

Sorry if this has been mentioned but do any of you guy's know if you have to pay tax on spreadbetting activities in Holland or is it treated in a similar way to the UK.

Thanks

 

[trader1828]

The court decission that DHB provided gives some hope!

DHB any more information about this?

Jack o´Clubs, I prefer having less sun in mi life and more money in my pocket, hehehehe. Is not fair to pay half of what to make to the state. Capital gains should be taxed anywhere because you gain that with money that had already been taxed also.

By the way, anyone trading from the Netherlands that could give more information please????

Hi Pipayo how are you, did you find any answers to this?

Thanks