Trading and Emotions

[mma]

* this thread started on good topic, 'emotions' *

well of course , someone has to do it .

* & has started to break down as usual into a bit of a compare & conquer match.....nothing wrong with that as it makes for good reading........but obviously bringing out the very thing being discussed. *

true to some limited extent , but when people start BS'ing that they can make profit every SINGLE day- a responsible person simply exposes the BS that that is . how can that be emotional ? and this is not trading - just chat , emotion here = irrelevant to trading.

how does one watch other traders ? can you see someone from t2w from where you are ?

GET RID of emotions first , then design your little systems , otherwise it don't mean zip , your problems will still be there.

this is why :

* also u may have a base strategy, but also trade off gut feeling sometimes when certain events come up *

 

[Felix]

mma

What IS DEFINITE is that you CANNOT be profitable everyday

Sorry mma but this simply is not true. Chartman has already said that he knows of traders who make profit everyday and so do I, quite a few in fact. Also if you have read any of Stevet's posts you would know that he makes money by arbitrage inefficiencies across the markets. Arbitrage traders make guaranteed risk free money and there are a number of traders who do this.

The fact you are saying this says that it is "YOU" who are not able to make profit everyday but that does not mean we should all be tarred with the same brush. Good luck for the future though.



Felix

 

[Skimbleshanks]

What IS DEFINITE is that you CANNOT be profitable everyday , slightly different words - blows away the deception entirely .

Not true.

When you can't do it, you find it very hard to believe that it is possible. But, trust me, it is not too difficult to be profitable every day when you know what you're doing.

Getting to the point where you know what you're doing is the hard slog, and there's no easy short-cut route.

do she trade more than 40 quid a pnt REGULARLY ? BET she won't answer .

I trade ES futures which are £31.50 ($50) per point per contract. That is the minimum I trade, and the maximum is a multiplier of that.

 

[blash]

People talk about methodology and trading systems, is there a difference?

To my mind a trading system is trading using fixed rules.

Methodology could mean the same thing but with some extra parameters, I'm just not sure what though.

Cheers

 

[Trader333]

The only real difference that I understood is that a system can usually be completely automated and has fixed rules where-as a method may not able to be because some of it could be subjective.


Paul

 

[sandpiper]

blash,

One extra "parameter" might be an assessment of order flow at the time of trade execution.

By way of example, let's say your "system" is to sell a high that isn't taken out by x points (or buy a low) you may well be looking to establish some kind of feel for order flow at the time the system indicates you should trade.

I suppose you could argue that you could attempt to "capture" order flow as a parameter.

In the same example, additional parameters might be sentiment indicators (say put/call ration) , market characteristics (say cumulative a/d, tick, trin), other markets including (bonds, currencies, specific stocks), time of day...... the list is potentially endless. And for some people the additional "parameters" change on a day to day basis.

You could also argue that all of these parameters could be captured as part of a system I suppose.

Thing is in order to be totally "systematic" you have to know why certain relationships between certain "parameters" are important at certain times and not at others.

People have tried to work that one out with neural networks and, for the most part, been unsuccessfull.

 

[Grey1]

Blash ,


Quote " People talk about methodology and trading systems, is there a difference?

To my mind a trading system is trading using fixed rules. "


Methodlogy = use of indicators or a set or criteria to open positions..

Example If RSI > 20 and turning and
Price below Bollinger band
Then BUY

Trading systems = Above + Risk analysis + Money management

Institutions use trading systems..

Any trading system sold which lacks the risK and money management built in it, is simply a fancy methodology and not a trading system ...

 

[Finlayson]

mma

I respect your directness & u come up with very valid arguments.......even though they seem very antagonising a lot of the time.......sure u must do this on purpose

but u do seem to spend most of your time just breaking down people's posts & thinking of argumentative replies, as I am sure u will with this one, & sometimes u probably haven't quite got the point the poster was trying to make.........I know I am guilty of this often........no problem u have every right to.

not that it will make a Jot of difference to my, or anybody else's results, but some people should realise there r many successful ways to trade & their system & T2W r not the centre of the trading universe.


Jay

 

[al-motor]

I certainly agree there Jay............ the method has to suit ur personality !! People should read the Market Wizards to realise that they all have very different idea/ways of trading........... one size shoe will not fit all !

Al

 

[mma]

I CHALLENGE anyone to prove to me that they made a PROFIT EVERY day for say 2 years .

ARBITRAGE DOES NOT = GUARANTEED PROFITS , anyone that says does NOT understand what he is saying - I waiting for your predictable reply to which I already have a reply to.

1 ES contract ? that's all you're better off doing SB's .

* I respect your directness & u come up with very valid arguments....... *

I respect you for saying so.

* there r many successful ways to trade & their system & T2W r not the centre of the trading universe. *

I couldn't agree more .

look out for more Bank shannanigans - next tale is a dandy .

 

[Felix]

Well mma I think maybe I will take the same approach you do when asked to “Prove” the claims you have also made and that is to not do so.

After all why should I or anyone else ? I know it is the case that profits can be made everyday as I said I know quite a few traders who do it and I am also much more likely to believe the likes of Skim and Chartman over you any day.

But the biggest reason is that to be honest I just cannot be bothered to collate the information which you would then claim was fake. I have nothing to sell and nothing to prove and was just letting others know that it is possible.

One of the most important qualities for anyone to become a successful trader is to take on board new learning and new possibilities. You appear to completely lack this quality which is probably why you have such a controversial relationship with almost every other T2W member on these boards which is a shame really. I know that I have challenged certain posts made by others but I haven’t taken it on myself to alienate every post by every person that doesn’t fit with my view on trading



Felix

 

[zow]

Bravo, Felix!

 

[ChartMan]

mma

1 ES contract ? that's all you're better off doing SB's

Prove it , please, for the benefit of those that are either not prepared to take your word for it or don't know any different. Please ensure you use a broad based unbiased argument to support your claim.

 

[mma]

felix,

What claims have I made ? that emotions have no part in trading ? yes , that is an opinion and one shared by many of the world's top traders. It's a view , I don't have to prove it , you don't have to agree.

Unlike the LUDICROUS CLAIM (and that is what is is , let's face it), that one can make a PROFIT EVERY day for say 2 years.
if you don't understand why , then that's that , you might as well say you can make profits from the market evryday for the rest of your life - few will respect that .

Another quality of somone always open to new ideas is to absorb what is real and what is bull .

there are members that agree with me and disagree , so what , that's life .

CM ,

well for a start is this the S&P eminis or the main contract ?

 

[Skimbleshanks]

Actually MMA, you started by saying that it was not possible to make a profit every day. And now you've amended that to say it is not possible to make a profit every day for two years.

Now, that's called moving the goalposts!

 

[mma]

no it's called reality - unless it is your intention to totally confuse people by saying the completely misleading statement that one can make profits in any one day .

course that means nothing , it is over a REASONABLE course of time that counts . I bet that no one can be net profitable everyday for even 6 months on the trot.

 

[Skimbleshanks]

Ahh ... so the goalposts have moved yet again ... to six months.

Actually, I believe that the period required is a lot shorter than that - one week perhaps.

The reason is that it is very rare to have the odd 'good' week when everyone including my dog could make money trading. So if you pick a 'bad' week to prove your trading ability, then if you can make money every day in a bad week you can almost certainly make money every day full stop.

But we all have our 'off' days, when for whatever reason we are not feeling 100% so should not be trading. Only experience teaches you to recognise these days and stay clear of the market. That too will help you keep profitable every day you trade.

 

[stevet]

i also doubt anyone can be net profitable everday for 6 months, but if they are not net profitable for at least 4 days out of 5, no one in the trading industry would consider that person a trader

and the 5th - non profitable day - should not be a losing and giving back money day, it should be a very very small loss day, where volatiltiy just meant there were no opportunities and the trader packs up early knowing that those sorts of days are going to skin you alive - so experience tells you to take the rest of the day off

and the reason that someone can trade proftiably for 4 out of 5 days is not because they have a great gut, are emotionally stable or can see into the future, or whatever, its simply because they have a methodology that takes advantage of pricing inefficiencies in the market and they apply that methodology - day in day out

makets are like a big shark, and like a shark, the market goes where it wants and you sure dont want to get in its way, but if you are a small parasite swimming with the shark and not getting in its way, you end up being protected by the shark and it wont even notice you and there are enough tiny nibbles that the shark would not even notice, to keep a little parasite well fed - but just make sure you keep swimming with the shark, just following it, the day you second guess where the shark is going to go and try to get their first - the shark is gonna see you and you are going to be history

so for all those that think it is not possible to make money 4 out of 5 days, it maybe that your methodology is wrong and by default you are gambling with unacceptable odds

whilst i think the open access of the markets is great - every private trader should try to imagine that they have gone for a job iinterview as a trader and in that interview they need to explain specifically their methodology in order to get the job

if you were the interviewer hearing that methodology, would you be impressed and want to hire you because it was obvious this methodology could make money each day, or would you feel that this interviewee was gambling and was gonna **** away your money trying to prove themselves right?

 

[Skimbleshanks]

You're right stevet - so perhaps that should be our benchmark.

Four days profitability in any consecutive five day period, with the losses not exceeding 25% of the gains?

 

[turtle trader]

mma

Surely we should not be looking at what time period we can be profitable over, but rather over how many trades. If a trader typically places 1 trade/day then he/she can clearly not expect to be profitable every day. But can they be profitable every week? - maybe; or every month? - hopefully, yes.

So if this traders system allows him to be profitable over about 20 trades, why can a much shorter term trader (placing 20 trades/day for e.g.) whose system provides a similar R:R profile, not expect to be profitable every day? (This is just 1 scenario as an example - I am not suggesting that placing 20 trades/day is the only way to be profitable every day)

It seems to me that you believe there is only 1 way to trade the market & that anyone who suggests otherwise is a complete lunatic who is personally attacking you. By all means express your opinions, but if someone doesn't agree then it's OK, there's no need to have a fit or to start challenging people to prove themselves.

I think we're all aware that emotions are best kept away from trading, which must make it very difficult for you having to suppress all that anger and fight against your hangups. Maybe that's why you let it all out on these boards, so that when you are trading you can sit serenely at your screen, carefully considering your next trade. Can't you buy a punchbag or something instead so that we can all get a bit of peace?

Nice deep breaths now

Turtle