Best Thread The Options edge (Writing Vs Buying)

taken from the delta thread in case it's missed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbelly
..........................Serious note to Mods . . . mtbelly is clearly a returning banned poster, why is mtbelly still allowed to post?

To keep this sector alive perhaps? most of your recent posts have been addresed to me!..........................




mtbelly

warning

You appear to be admitting that you are a returned banned member. Before banning you I will give you the chance to refute that apparent admission.

If you do refute it then, unless you desist from your constant digging at other members and your constant "advertising" of another website, I will ban you anyway.

jon

ps: at 1840 http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showpost.php?p=263783&postcount=22
 
Mr Barjon,

I have removed that statement .

Sorry if i have offended any member.

I'm also thinking of taking a break from posting here [T2W], in the hope that things can get moving again in the right direction on this chosen topic /thread with interesting posts from decent traders.

Do you think others are doing "digging" and advertising too?

If anybody is offended by this post? please feel free to delete.

Regards

mtbelly
 
Writing and then not buying it back is the edge

Hedge with spreads and buy one long call and sell a short call against it hoping it expires worthless. Do this multiple times so you are buying one call and selling many against it. See the free tutorials at

http://www.personalhedgefunds.com

They have tutorials on when to enter into spreads and how Hedge spreads work for hedge fund traders, etc.
 
Original Quote From Windlesham1 :

I'm sure you all know that. trying to find mispriced options is a pretty pointless task as you never get filled,because if you've seen the trade, you can bet your life 50 others have seen it,and a programme trader will follow you in.

I have to disagree with the above statment. I will not go into detail but with the proper technology and know how you can locate mispriced options and execute them.

It is true, however, that the chances of the retail trader having the proper technology and know how is very slim. Even if the retail trader does find the opportunity in America the margin requirements for retail traders will make the opportunity no better than the risk free rate, at best, in 99.9% of the cases.
 
SRA said:
I will not go into detail but with the proper technology and know how you can locate mis-priced options and execute them.
Mis-priced in what respect ?

If you mean mis-priced in terms of implied volatility then I disagree, since they could only ever be mis-priced in hindsight, i.e. at option expiry. Only at that point can you look back and see if the option was mis-priced.

If you mean mis-priced in terms of synthetic pricing being out of synch with the cash.... well it's possible. But the arb will only last a split second and I agree with Windlesham that the gains are hardly worth the effort. Needles and haystacks come to mind.

Incidentally, why post and then say "I will not go into detail..." ?
 
I mean mispriced in terms of synthetic vs. cash. The arbs are available and as I said previously if you are just trying to trade them retail then, you are right, the gains are usually less than the risk free rate and therefore not worth the effort. However, if you can hook up with a prop shop or some sort of JBO then you can get MM haircuts and make the opportunities worthwhile.

Also when I stated that I would not go into detail I meant on exactly how to find the opportunities.
 
SRA said:
Also when I stated that I would not go into detail I meant on exactly how to find the opportunities.
Fair enough.

But I would suggest it's very easy - all you need is a live price feed (options and cash) into Excel and a couple of formulas to flag any pricing discrepancies.

Blink and you'll mis it !
 
Original Quote From Profitaker :

But I would suggest it's very easy - all you need is a live price feed (options and cash) into Excel and a couple of formulas to flag any pricing discrepancies.

I would agree somewhat. Getting the live feeds is very easy, obviously. Dumping into Excel, easy enough. Developing the algorithms and automating them to continuously scan, not quite as easy .

For someone who is versed in options pricing theory, in the business and has easy access to the technology it may come pretty easy, but I am speaking of the general retail public. The chances of the grandpa trading his IRA finding the opportunities seems pretty slim to me. But my original post was just to say that it can be done and mispriced options do exist.

I think we are agreeing in some areas, but disagreeing in others. I agree that for some it is easy to find the opportunities. I don't agree that it would be easy for the retail trader to find the opportunities because most of them do not understand options pricing theory and all the factors that go into it. Whereas, I think you are saying that it would be easy for the retail trader to find the opportunities, but they would not be able to execute them. So for the most part it appears we agree. We are diverging in the fact that I think the retail trader wouldn't know what to look for and you think the retail trader would know what to look for, but just would not be able to execute. At least that is what I am getting out of your last post. Correct me if I am wrong.

But again I was originally trying to say that the mispriced options are out there and executable, if you know how to go about finding them efficiently.

Hope this post made some sort of sense.
 
SRA said:
We are diverging in the fact that I think the retail trader wouldn't know what to look for and you think the retail trader would know what to look for, but just would not be able to execute.
Yes, I'd agree with that summary. Simultaneously executing multiple legs, possibly in different markets, would be a problem for a retail trader using a home PC.
 
Profitaker said:
Options trading is often likened to gambling and casinos, with option buyers being labeled the gamblers and option sellers likened to being the casino or “house”. This is a false and arrogant analogy, and I’ll explain why.

Just like in the world of casinos, options trading is a game of probabilities. To illustrate this let’s take a balanced six sided dice, where the probability of any of the numbers 1 thru to 6 coming up is the exactly the same i.e. a uniform distribution. Let’s assume that whatever number comes up is your monetary payout, so if you landed a 5 for example, you’d receive a payout of £5. What would be a fair price to pay for a throw of the dice ? The “fair value” is defined as being the price at which, over many throws, you would neither win or lose but break-even, in other words the expectancy is zero. This “fair value” is easily calculated by adding all the payoffs and dividing by the number of possibilities which in the case of the six sided dice is 1+2+3+4+5+6 / 6 = 3.5. So if you bought (or sold) the bet for £ 3.50 you would neither win or lose but break-even - no edge – no advantage, in the long run. However If you could buy the bet for less than £ 3.50 you’d have an edge, or if you could sell the bet for more than £ 3.50 you’d have an edge. But buy OR sell this bet at fair value (£ 3.50) - no edge – no advantage.

What about a Call option on (say) the number 5, which pays out £ 5 if the number 5 lands. What’s it fair value ? Again, add the payoffs and divide by the number possibilities. In this case the fair value of a Call option on the number 5 is…. 5 / 6 = £ 0.83 3 recurring. So if the number 5 Call option is bought (or sold) for £ 0.83 you’ll neither win or lose in the long run but break-even – no edge – no advantage. If however, you could buy this option for less than £ 0.83 you’d have an edge, or if you could sell this option for more than £ 0.83 you’d have and edge. But buy OR sell this option at fair value (£ 0.83) - no edge – no advantage.

This simple probability concept above applies to pricing options too. However, whereas a 6-sided dice has a “uniform” distribution, stock and commodity asset prices have a “normal” distribution. Simple put, a normal distribution means that the probability of asset price change reduces as we move away from the mean (average) price. In other words a 1% price change is more likely than a 2% price change, and a 2% price change is more likely than a 3% price change and so on.

Calculating probabilities for the “normal distribution” is a rather more complex, but we can use the well known “Black Scholes" model to work them out. I can’t be bothered to explain in any detail the mechanics of the BS equation, but I can simply say that, just like in the dice example above, the equation adds up all the possible payouts and divides by the number of possibilities and calculates the fair value or theoretical value (ThVal) of any option. However, and this is critical, we must input an implied volatility figure into the model. This should be the future volatility of the underlying asset. If we can get that future volatility forecast right and use that figure as the implied volatility in our model, then we can calculate the ThVal of any option. And by selling options trading for more than ThVal and buying those trading at less than ThVal we have an edge, and over the long run will make certain profits.

However, and this is even more critical, future volatility cannot be known in advance. Nobody knows how to calculate future volatility, and they never will. So whenever you look at a particular option trading in the market, you cannot know whether the edge lies in buying or selling it. Only when the option expires can you then look back at volatility in the underlying and comparing that figure with the implied volatility of the option. Then, and only then, can you say with certainty who had the edge.

So in conclusion, where option implied volatility is different from historic volatility (as is almost always the case) one party (writer / buyer) will have had an edge BUT this cannot be known until the option expires.

Sometimes the writer has the edge, sometimes the buyer has the edge, but over the long run neither writer nor buyer has any inherent edge.

A word on “edge”. We all know who has the edge when walking into a casino, but we also know that you can still win a fortune from the casino despite their edge. Similarly if you own a Casino you can lose a fortune, despite your having an edge. Having an edge is no guarantee of profits in the short term, only the long term.

Sensible comments ?


Dose any one know how to rent shares to option buyers? How I can rent the shares to option buyers? Any information would be highly appreciated 4
 
Profittaker,

Your remark re identifying arbitrage opportunities certainly made me think.

Live prices and Excel via dde:

Bid and ask, cash
Bid and ask, future
Futures fair value calc, bid and ask
Same for back months.

And now the worst part: the options, Eg Dax or Euro STOXX (the most liquid):

Calls and puts, bid and ask
50 strikes (they trade anywhere in this range)
implieds, bid and ask
8 expiries.

Calls and puts adds up to (let me work this out):

8 expiries at 50 strikes = 400
x 2 (calls and puts for each strike) = 800
x 2 (bid/ask calls) = 1,600
x 2 (bid/ask puts) = 3,200 prices
x 2 (bid/ask implied or estimated volatility for each)
= 6,400 separate values updating in real-time.

You will then need a 2 sets of calculations/formulae (eg Black) to calculate the implied via iteration (although there may be more efficient methods).

Maybe a database (how large?) for comparative?

Anything else not included.

Theoretically, it is possible but one would need a powerful pc and the mother of all Excel sheets to run it.

It could be reduced by looking at bund options, for example – good volume, fewer strikes, less volatility – but due to the presence of many institutional players, I doubt there would be any arbitrage opportunities.

I would certainly welcome any feedback, and SRA views. Have I got it completely wrong?

Grant.
 
Grant

I don’t know of any other way to calculate implied vol except by iteration and iteration takes up an awful lot of CPU usage. Anyway, why would you need implied vol data when looking for arbs ? Unless you were looking at running a dispersion trade, but I don’t think that’s what you’re alluding to here.

In terms of put-call parity arbs, all you’d need into Excel is the underlying Bid/Ask and option Bid/Ask. Exactly how many different option strikes and dates you used is arbitrary.

Example of put-call parity arb…

Stock ABC Bid 498 Ask 502
Option 525 Call Bid 12 Ask 14
Option 525 Put Bid 28 Ask 30

Buy stock @ 502
Sell 525 Call @ 12
Buy 525 Put @ 30

For a 5 point conversion arb.

Monitoring for that sort of arb in Excel isn’t difficult. However, simultaneously executing the 3 trades at precisely the same time is difficult.

All rather academic really, as those sort of arbs are so few and far between, and last only a split second, they ain’t worth bothering with, IMHO.
 
Profittaker,

Courtesy dictates I respond to your post as soon as possible.

Point taken. I think your approach is simpler and more efficient than mine, and won’t overload the national grid.

There are broader points I’d like to discuss. This is an interesting thread, and I’ll return later.

Grant.
 
Profitaker said:
DB – good post ! More like that needed.

1) leptokurtotic is not a distribution, it’s a higher moment of the normal distribution. Where the value of Kurtosis is more than 3 it’s said to be Leptokurtic, less than 3 Platykurtic. Kurtosis of 3 describes a normal distribution – and very few distributions are perfectly normal.

2) You seem to be describing increasing volatility ?

3) Good point and agreed. But it’s more of a practical consideration as you say.

a) Being able to buy back a short option position and then simultaneously sell another (roll) has no bearing on edge. An option buyer has the ability to roll too.

b) All probabilities and outcomes are considered in any model. I don’t quite follow what you’re saying ?

a) "Being able to buy back a short option position and then simultaneously sell another (roll) has no bearing on edge. An option buyer has the ability to roll too."

Hi Profitaker,

Re: Your post No 6 dated 10-11-2005

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=17620&page=1&pp=10

I can understand your point that the "writer" has the right of rolling ITM,OTM, ATM positions and has the right to keep ALL the initial premiums received plus more premiums he will receive by rolling. Can you expand how the "buyer" can roll a losing OTM position or if positions is very close to zero value with no intrinsic value please? I'm sure most people would benefit from your reply too.

Happy new year!

069
 
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orion69 said:
a) "Being able to buy back a short option position and then simultaneously sell another (roll) has no bearing on edge. An option buyer has the ability to roll too."

Hi Profitaker,

Re: Your post No 6 dated 10-11-2005

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=17620&page=1&pp=10

I can understand your point that the "writer" has the right of rolling ITM,OTM, ATM positions and has the right to keep ALL the initial premiums received plus more premiums he will receive by rolling. Can you expand how the "buyer" can roll a losing OTM position or if positions is very close to zero value with no intrinsic value please? I'm sure most people would benefit from your reply too.

Happy new year!

069
Good post this....raises three interesting questions...

Profitaker.....

That is exactly the riddle.....How can a buyer roll a losing out ot the money pozzie ? How is this possible, if at all ?

This also applies in the case of the pozzie being close to zero value and devoid of intrinsic value ?

And how can this be done additionaly when the option is close to expiry too ?

We await your reply with interest.

There is no rush, first enjoy and digest your Christmas turkey, and then...tell us.:)
 
Socco,

Profitaker's comments in post number SIX was one of the main reason his application for 3.4S Membership was turned down. The other reason he has been refused membeship is that he does NOT agree FULLY with the comments on options by one of the biggest options brokers in USA namely Optionxpress. He has the nerve to say that OPTIONXPRESS comments are WRONG. :rolleyes:

069
 
orion69 said:
Socco,

Profitaker's comments in post number SIX was one of the main reason his application for 3.4S Membership was turned down. The other reason he has been refused membeship is that he does NOT agree FULLY with the comments on options by one of the biggest options brokers in USA namely Optionxpress. He has the nerve to say that OPTIONXPRESS comments are WRONG. :rolleyes:

069
I was not aware of that and thank you for explaining it to me. You don't have to explain but thank you for considering me and making me aware of your decision.

It seems I am right once again when I state on another thread very briefly,,,

"Everyone will be punished ( or rewarded )..... according to his greatest own achievement"

This being a season of goodwill, I would now like to extend to you all, Compliments of the Season, and Good Wishes For Every Success In The Forthcoming New Year.
 
Hello again Bulldozer

orion69 said:
Can you expand how the "buyer" can roll a losing OTM position or if positions is very close to zero value with no intrinsic value please?
You will find the answer to that and many other basic questions here:-
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Option-Vola...ef=sr_1_1/026-3463153-3855611?ie=UTF8&s=books

Actually, I have a couple of questions for you:-

How many times have you been banned from T2W now ? How long does it take for you to get the message that you aren’t wanted or welcome here ?

p.s. Tell Soc he’s on ignore :)
 
Profitaker said:
Hello again Bulldozer

You will find the answer to that and many other basic questions here:-
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Option-Vola...ef=sr_1_1/026-3463153-3855611?ie=UTF8&s=books

Actually, I have a couple of questions for you:-

How many times have you been banned from T2W now ? How long does it take for you to get the message that you aren’t wanted or welcome here ?

p.s. Tell Soc he’s on ignore :)

He's something Bulldozer asked to be passed on....

Page 24. By Maverick74
Read the bit in Blue. [LONG calls]

Post by Maverick74 found on this link below:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=82489&perpage=6&pagenumber=2 4


"And a message to the Optionetics board who claims I was using vulgar language, impersonating other people, using multiple ID's, etc. I used vulgar language in one post in response to a poster who continued to talk down to me and wish me a happy new year everytime I tried to be civil with him and asked him to give me one example of how he rolls down his magic calls. Of course he had no example to give so I told him he was a f*cking jerk. And rightfully so I believe. My posts were deleted well before that comment.
I created a second ID because my first one was banned. It was kind of hard to respond to their questions when they ban you. And I was not impersonating anyone. I think it's pretty comical if they actually think I was trying to impersonate Dr. J, LOL. I never said I was him and everyone knew who I was over at ET. And of course, all those that attacked me were not banned nor were their posts pulled. How convenient. Anyway, I just wanted to post this since a few of them are reading this thread. All I'm guilty of is telling Steve he is a f*cking jerk one time after about 15 posts. Yeah, good job guys. I'm the bad guy."
 
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