Best Thread The Options edge (Writing Vs Buying)

jj90 said:
Thus I refer to back to selling hedged premium vs naked premium. If it was so clear cut between naked long and short, verticals would have no use.
I'm not sure I'd describe verticals as "no use". But if there was any edge in being either long or short premium, then surely to introduce an opposing option position will, at best, erode (some) edge ?
 
jj90 said:
Thus I refer to back to selling hedged premium vs naked premium. If it was so clear cut between naked long and short, verticals would have no use. There is a time for everything, in 99' you could have gotten away selling naked puts, in 01' it would have killed you. While selling gamma hedged premium would have kept you in the game. Risk to reward tradeoff. I still maintain there is no edge between buying or selling in any shape or form, hedged or naked.

Sorry, but if you maintain the opinion that there's no edge between buying and selling, doesn't that imply that your reference to hedged versus naked premium is meaningless? As I already indicated, delta hedging with the underlying is pretty meaningless when it comes to 6 sigma events. The only alternative hedge is imho a gamma hedge, read buying premium. If there's no intrinsic edge, I think you're just throwing away transaction costs.

If you're right the edge should be found outside the option, you should find a way to change the probability distribution by using smart entry/exit strategies. By taking a view on the underlying or other relevant factor. Hedging or not hedging won't help you, what you make on the hedge during 1 type of market will be lost in another market.

grtnx
Wilco
 
Silent.Trader said:
Sorry, but if you maintain the opinion that there's no edge between buying and selling, doesn't that imply that your reference to hedged versus naked premium is meaningless? As I already indicated, delta hedging with the underlying is pretty meaningless when it comes to 6 sigma events. The only alternative hedge is imho a gamma hedge, read buying premium. If there's no intrinsic edge, I think you're just throwing away transaction costs.

If you're right the edge should be found outside the option, you should find a way to change the probability distribution by using smart entry/exit strategies. By taking a view on the underlying or other relevant factor. Hedging or not hedging won't help you, what you make on the hedge during 1 type of market will be lost in another market.

grtnx
Wilco

If there is no intrinsic edge, then hedging would simply take away from whatever edge you yourself put into the trade (good entry, risk management, etc etc), pretty much what Profitaker is saying above. But the way I see it, is that I'm trading off more edge from buying premium, for less risk. The R:R tradeoff. If net long(buying) or net short(selling) has an intrinsic edge, you are simply getting diminished edge. But it's still there. And if there is no edge in either, it's an R:R tradeoff. It's not a hedge in the sense it will completely eliminate risk, but with gamma hedged premium you know your risk up front. Difference in strikes - premium received. Some would call it unnecessary transaction and commission costs, other would call it peace of mind.

Edit: I hope I'm not backtracking/repeating my previous posts. If so, please point it out.
 
Silent.Trader said:
Sorry, but if you maintain the opinion that there's no edge between buying and selling, doesn't that imply that your reference to hedged versus naked premium is meaningless?
Well my reference is that one will counter the other, which I think has a meaning. Maybe I didn’t explain it very well, let my try again;

It’s either a good time to be selling premium or a good time to be buying it – it can never be both. So if a trader believes there is an edge in selling premium, to then hedge it by going long premium (creating a vertical) must erode some edge, not to mention spreads and comms.

Verticals have good uses, but they don’t enhance edge.
 
Yes I agree that if conditions are biased towards either buying or selling, selling/buying premium would decrease edge. What I was trying to get at is that with this decreased edge, the benefit is limited risk to an amount. As long as the 'hedge' doesn't push expectancy into negative terrority, you still have an edge, although smaller. If you return $1.1 for every $1 bet, you may return with the opposing position $1.05. To each his own. As long as I'm net positive expectancy, I don't mind less edge for less risk. Others may prefer squeezing as much edge as they can.
 
How to find these Discrepancies in IV and Historical

That's what this site does, it goes through all option spreads and finds IV and Historical volitility and gets the best Power factors for Hedge Spreads. (All you have to do is show up! Sorry I hate that ad) These spreads give an edge in your option writing!

http://www.personalhedgefunds.com/

Market Neutral Investing





Profitaker said:
Options trading is often likened to gambling and casinos, with option buyers being labeled the gamblers and option sellers likened to being the casino or “house”. This is a false and arrogant analogy, and I’ll explain why.

Just like in the world of casinos, options trading is a game of probabilities. To illustrate this let’s take a balanced six sided dice, where the probability of any of the numbers 1 thru to 6 coming up is the exactly the same i.e. a uniform distribution. Let’s assume that whatever number comes up is your monetary payout, so if you landed a 5 for example, you’d receive a payout of £5. What would be a fair price to pay for a throw of the dice ? The “fair value” is defined as being the price at which, over many throws, you would neither win or lose but break-even, in other words the expectancy is zero. This “fair value” is easily calculated by adding all the payoffs and dividing by the number of possibilities which in the case of the six sided dice is 1+2+3+4+5+6 / 6 = 3.5. So if you bought (or sold) the bet for £ 3.50 you would neither win or lose but break-even - no edge – no advantage, in the long run. However If you could buy the bet for less than £ 3.50 you’d have an edge, or if you could sell the bet for more than £ 3.50 you’d have an edge. But buy OR sell this bet at fair value (£ 3.50) - no edge – no advantage.

What about a Call option on (say) the number 5, which pays out £ 5 if the number 5 lands. What’s it fair value ? Again, add the payoffs and divide by the number possibilities. In this case the fair value of a Call option on the number 5 is…. 5 / 6 = £ 0.83 3 recurring. So if the number 5 Call option is bought (or sold) for £ 0.83 you’ll neither win or lose in the long run but break-even – no edge – no advantage. If however, you could buy this option for less than £ 0.83 you’d have an edge, or if you could sell this option for more than £ 0.83 you’d have and edge. But buy OR sell this option at fair value (£ 0.83) - no edge – no advantage.

This simple probability concept above applies to pricing options too. However, whereas a 6-sided dice has a “uniform” distribution, stock and commodity asset prices have a “normal” distribution. Simple put, a normal distribution means that the probability of asset price change reduces as we move away from the mean (average) price. In other words a 1% price change is more likely than a 2% price change, and a 2% price change is more likely than a 3% price change and so on.

Calculating probabilities for the “normal distribution” is a rather more complex, but we can use the well known “Black Scholes" model to work them out. I can’t be bothered to explain in any detail the mechanics of the BS equation, but I can simply say that, just like in the dice example above, the equation adds up all the possible payouts and divides by the number of possibilities and calculates the fair value or theoretical value (ThVal) of any option. However, and this is critical, we must input an implied volatility figure into the model. This should be the future volatility of the underlying asset. If we can get that future volatility forecast right and use that figure as the implied volatility in our model, then we can calculate the ThVal of any option. And by selling options trading for more than ThVal and buying those trading at less than ThVal we have an edge, and over the long run will make certain profits.

However, and this is even more critical, future volatility cannot be known in advance. Nobody knows how to calculate future volatility, and they never will. So whenever you look at a particular option trading in the market, you cannot know whether the edge lies in buying or selling it. Only when the option expires can you then look back at volatility in the underlying and comparing that figure with the implied volatility of the option. Then, and only then, can you say with certainty who had the edge.

So in conclusion, where option implied volatility is different from historic volatility (as is almost always the case) one party (writer / buyer) will have had an edge BUT this cannot be known until the option expires.

Sometimes the writer has the edge, sometimes the buyer has the edge, but over the long run neither writer nor buyer has any inherent edge.

A word on “edge”. We all know who has the edge when walking into a casino, but we also know that you can still win a fortune from the casino despite their edge. Similarly if you own a Casino you can lose a fortune, despite your having an edge. Having an edge is no guarantee of profits in the short term, only the long term.

Sensible comments ?
 
jj90 said:
Yes I agree that if conditions are biased towards either buying or selling, selling/buying premium would decrease edge. What I was trying to get at is that with this decreased edge, the benefit is limited risk to an amount. As long as the 'hedge' doesn't push expectancy into negative terrority, you still have an edge, although smaller.

By using spreads you off course decrease edge. If say 10% of the optionpremium is edge, by hedging you not only decrease the exposure, you also add costs. IMHO the hedged or unhedged discusion is of little use unless is defined whether there's an edge and how big that edge is. At the moment it's decided that the edge exists and is defined how big the edge is it may be worth to start the hedged or un hedged discussion. As said it influences the R/R ratio and due to associated costs may very well result in a negative expectency.

Theory says that chances for sellers and buyers are even. Of course it's just theory, but as long as argumentation for an edge is no more than a ratio of ITM/OTM expiring options I feel no urge to take it too seriously. Consequently I prefer to rely on the external edge of my trading strategy rather than on a possibly exsisting intrinsic edge.

grtnx
Wilco
 
irishpaddypc said:

Facts? Bull**** you mean... The article states itself: " While not the entire story, the data suggests..." Not the entire story, so why take it seriously if he's not even able to provide the entire story? And " suggests" sorry, but I need something more substantial to put serious money on the line. This is only expiration data..... and even this data is only disected in a minimalistic way . As I wrote before, as long as argumentation for an edge is no more than a ratio of ITM/OTM expiring options I feel no urge to take it too seriously.

grtnx
Wilco
 
Silent.Trader said:
Facts? Bull**** you mean... The article states itself: " While not the entire story, the data suggests..." Not the entire story, so why take it seriously if he's not even able to provide the entire story? And " suggests" sorry, but I need something more substantial to put serious money on the line. This is only expiration data..... and even this data is only disected in a minimalistic way . As I wrote before, as long as argumentation for an edge is no more than a ratio of ITM/OTM expiring options I feel no urge to take it too seriously.

grtnx
Wilco


http://www.optionsearcher.com/HlpCallsPuts.asp

http://www.ansbacherusa.com/aboutourstrategy.htm

http://www.ansbacherusa.com/about_us.htm

http://www.callwriter.com/newsletter/writing-naked-puts.htm

http://www.callwriter.com/newsletter/writing-naked-puts.htm
 
Last edited:
This guy was quite keen on selling option premium;

http://riskinstitute.ch/137560.htm

There are also many other less well documented cases of blow-ups.

Selling DOTM premium is rather like picking up pennies in front of a stream roller - it's easy money, until you get flattened.
 
Profitaker said:
This guy was quite keen on selling option premium;

http://riskinstitute.ch/137560.htm

There are also many other less well documented cases of blow-ups.

Selling DOTM premium is rather like picking up pennies in front of a stream roller - it's easy money, until you get flattened.

Sorry folks that i broke my promise not to post here until the 20 days are up. But, i felt it had to be done as our friend here [Profitaker] is again trying to mislead the members once again.

Leeson did NOT break Barings because of the short PUTS contracts ! he done it by being LONG FTRS on the NIKKIE and doubling up on his losses. He was a CON man &gambler and he was NOT very knowledgable on the GREEKS or hedging with options. He was NOT a top class trader and certailly NOT top class options trader! He was a TOP class con man and TOP class gammbler using orther peoples money.

I did offer YOU! a wager to prove that the WRITER has the EDGE by showing you ! 10 trades on the spin where the writer WINS and has the advantage over the buyer! but, it seems obvious that you dont want to be proved wrong and you dont want the truth to come out concerning who has the edge! and ALSO bring your arguement that there will be ONE trade in 9 that will bust the account or take away the profits generated from the wins! The offer is still on the table at 2 to 1 My £200 for your £100. This will kill 2 birds with one stone ! and kill off both your argeuments.

Paddy
 
The most striking point of Table 10.1 is the fact that Leeson sold 70,892 Nikkei 225 options worth about $7 billion without the knowledge of Barings London. His activity peaked in November and December 1994 when in those two months alone, he sold 34, 400 options.
On the day of the quake, January 17, the Nikkei 225 was at 19,350. It ended that week slightly lower at 18,950 so Leeson's straddle positions were starting to look shaky. The call options Leeson had sold were beginning to look worthless but the put options would become very valuable to their buyers if the Nikkei continued to decline. Leeson's losses on these puts were unlimited and totally dependent on the level of the Nikkei at expiry, while the profits on the calls were limited to the premium earned.
He met the stream roller.
 
"Sorry folks that i broke my promise" irishpaddywhateveryournameis


says it all really...words are cheap to this guy...as probably are other peoples' money
 
A solution to the Impasse?

Rather than take even more of this thread playing ping-pong with premium - why don't:-

Profitaker and Irish decide on a options swap.

Profitaker - you decide on an option you'd like to buy (actually, maybe a few...) and Irish, YOU decide which one you are willing to accept the premium for.

We use a standard options quote intermediary for the actual price.

The transaction occurs on the boards which we all witness. No actual money changes hands.

At any time, Profitaker can close his option and we settle the difference.

Whoever comes out ahead is the winner - the other one, is not.

No silliness about charities and all that other malarky.

Then, we can all get on with what the thread's really about once you two lads have settled down a bit.

Good idea? Bad Idea?

PS. I thought this thread had been closed..... :rolleyes:

PPS - Profitaker, based on Irish's lack of research even as far as simply reading the whole of this thread before posting a clanger, I think you're in, right or wrong, for a winner.
 
Profitaker said:
He met the stream roller.

Other points you did NOT know or forgot to mention about Nick's method of gambling :-

He did NOT know how to hedge!

He did NOT use stops on ftrs.

He run out of margin money and time.

He was a LIAR and and rogue trader.

He was a fraud.

He knows nothing about when is the best time to write puts!!! or on what strikes!! or on what underline/index!!!


A good put writer DRIVES THE STEAM ROLLER THATS WHAT YOU HAVENT FIGURED OUT YET Mr PROFESOR PROFITAKER.!!! Thats why my mentors name is BULLDOZER as its more POWERFULL THAN THE STEAM ROLLER!! :LOL:


Jimbo 7,

Words dont make you a good profitable options trader my good friend! A good option trader has to have a BULLDOZER to knock out the nasty steam ROLLER of its course than he can pick up all those little pennies that our Professor Profitaker doest want or how to make it safe to pick the pennies up! :LOL:

Paddy
 
Last edited:
Top