Best Thread The Options edge (Writing Vs Buying)

zupcon said:
I think recommending PG Tips possibly violates this forums guidelines with respect to advertising. :LOL:

and I think there are 2 m's in recommend :rolleyes:

regards
zup
indeed there is and thank you for pointing it out to me i will now take my own advice and have a cup of tea
and you know which one!
regards
 
zupcon said:
I think recommending PG Tips possibly violates this forums guidelines with respect to advertising. :LOL:

and I think there are 2 m's in recommend :rolleyes:

regards
zup

Your subtle post will be lost on him. But I liked it.

M&M's = Peanuts

jog on
d998
 
SOCRATES said:
Ducatti please..... try to keep calm....there is no need for you to get agitated in the way you do.

I am very disappointed because I expected another long missive exalting the merits and virtues of your convoluted theorising, but it appears you have become distracted.

I hope and expect you will give us the benefit of your wisdom soon, and recite chapter and verse wothwhile ideas valid to you however arcane to us.

Please....ducatti....please.

If you want to include the ants this time, on this occasion we are willing to put up with it.

All is forgiven ducatti...you must not take everything so seriously....jusst give us the benefit of your ....ahem....wisdom..
Not wanting to get into a slanging match on here with anyone as that's just a waste of energy....

Socrates, why do you spell his name with two t's, is it to wind him up?

Also, I have seen many people ask you to post your wisdom too, to no avail... can you ask someone else to do that which you are not prepared to do?

Now I shall dissapear again...
 
ducati998 said:
Your subtle post will be lost on him. But I liked it.

M&M's = Peanuts

jog on
d998

= monkeys

hello again
 
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Priceman said:
Not wanting to get into a slanging match on here with anyone as that's just a waste of energy....

Socrates, why do you spell his name with two t's, is it to wind him up?

Also, I have seen many people ask you to post your wisdom too, to no avail... can you ask someone else to do that which you are not prepared to do?

Now I shall dissapear again...
No it is because he is an awful creature but I like him.

No don't disappear Priceman because I may just post some written calls if and when the opportunity arises just to demonstrate how it is done....if the climate for doing so is OK.
 
A question for those who believe that the writer has an inherent statistical edge.

If such an "edge" does exist, then by definition, it must be possible to quantify the size of that edge numerically. Id suggest that if this question cant be answered, then you dont have a full understanding of what your edge comprises.

Is anyone therefore willing to suggest the magnitude of the edge CYOF ?
 
Soccy baby

Some live trades?
Not hindsight............your usual fare.
Real above board trades called in real time......................nah, pinch me, dreaming, could have sworn Soccy said live trades.

jog on
d998
 
ducati998 said:
Soccy baby

Some live trades?
Not hindsight............your usual fare.
Real above board trades called in real time......................nah, pinch me, dreaming, could have sworn Soccy said live trades.

jog on
d998
Yes, live, just for fun, and if you are very well behaved, with perhaps even with futurological commentary thrown in. It all depends on whether you behave properly or not.
 
zupcon said:
A question for those who believe that the writer has an inherent statistical edge.

If such an "edge" does exist, then by definition, it must be possible to quantify the size of that edge numerically. Id suggest that if this question cant be answered, then you dont have a full understanding of what your edge comprises.

Is anyone therefore willing to suggest the magnitude of the edge CYOF ?

Zup..........reality check.
These guy's are struggling to string a coherent sentence together, their spelling is challenged, and now........................you want them to do maths?

Fun is fun, but mocking the afflicted......................
Ok, jog on.

d998
 
SOCRATES said:
Yes, live, just for fun, and if you are very well behaved, with perhaps even with futurological commentary thrown in. It all depends on whether you behave properly or not.

There it is, I thought I could see your stoploss lurking in the Level lI screens.

jog on
d998
 
What happened to the Peanut Post from my pal andycan?

See what I mean, even working with simple basic 1+1 = 2 math, these guy's get it wrong.
Just as well you pulled that post peanut, you were going to get crucified.

jog on peanut
d998
 
Ducatti, behave properly and don't be naughty and cheeky....I am warning you.....otherwse no live calls...so watch your language....that's all.
 
Soccy baby............
You're such a tease, put your cleavage away you tart.

Here are February's calls from the same firm that gave you last month's results, we can follow them in real time. My free subscription is now void, so won't have anymore for March.

We are recommending the following credit spreads to our FEBRUARY RECOMMENDED list.

We are recommending credit spreads on the following issues:

MER - Merrill Lynch & Co., Inc. is one of the world's leading financial management and advisory companies with offices in numerous countries.

IDCC - NTERDIGITAL COMMUNICATIONS develops and markets advanced digital wireless telecommunications systems using proprietary technologies for voice and data communications and has developed an extensive patent portfolio related to those technologies.

FD - Federated Department Stores, through its subsidiaries, is one of the leading operators of full-line department stores in the United States. The Company's subsidiaries operate department stores under the names Bloomingdale's, The Bon Marche, Burdines, Goldsmith's, Lazarus, Macy's, Rich's and Stern's.

We are recommending the following specific credit spreads

Put credit spreads

MER $95.87

SELL MER-NR MER FEB $90.00 PUT CREDIT= $0.45
BUY MER-NQ MER FEB $85.00 PUT DEBIT $0.15
NET CREDIT = $0.30

INITIAL "NET- CREDIT TARGET= $0.30 or $30.00
POTENTIAL PROFIT (x 10 CONTRACTS @ $0.30 = $300.00
MARGIN REQUIRE. (x 10 CONTRACTS $4,700.00
RETURN ON INVESTMENT= 6.38%
EXIT STRATEGY = 1. WATCH LIST 2. MAXIMUM LOSS SPREAD PRICE DIFFERENCE $5.00
1. STOCK WILL BE PLACED ON WATCH LIST IF STOCK PRICE DROPS TO: $93.00
2.EQUITY ISSUES
A STOP LIMIT will be placed on the SHORT STRIKE PRICE on any EQUITY OPTION that has a STRIKE PRICE DIFFERENCE OF $5.00 or MORE.
THE STOP LIMIT ON THIS POSITION IS NOTED BELOW:
MER POSITION STOP BELOW
MER-NR STOP LIMIT EXIT >> = $1.65
If and when the STOP LIMIT IS EXECUTED - A contingency order should be in place to then SELL the LONG SIDE
of the Spread and close the position with a Market Order if and when the SHORT side needs to be STOPPED OUT


IDCC $34.01

SELL DAQ-NF IDCC FEB $30.00 PUT CREDIT= $0.50
BUY DAQ-NE IDCC FEB $25.00 PUT DEBIT $0.20
NET CREDIT = $0.30

INITIAL "NET- CREDIT TARGET= $0.30 or $30.00
POTENTIAL PROFIT (x 10 CONTRACTS @ $0.30 = $300.00
MARGIN REQUIRE. (x 10 CONTRACTS $4,700.00
RETURN ON INVESTMENT= 6.38%
EXIT STRATEGY = 1. WATCH LIST 2. MAXIMUM LOSS SPREAD PRICE DIFFERENCE $5.00
1. STOCK WILL BE PLACED ON WATCH LIST IF STOCK PRICE DROPS TO: $32.00
2.EQUITY
A STOP LIMIT will be placed on the SHORT STRIKE PRICE on any EQUITY OPTION that has a STRIKE PRICE DIFFERENCE OF $5.00 or MORE.
THE STOP LIMIT ON THIS POSITION IS NOTED BELOW:
IDCC POSITION STOP BELOW
DAQ-NF STOP LIMIT EXIT >> = $1.75
If and when the STOP LIMIT IS EXECUTED - A contingency order should be in place to then SELL the LONG SIDE of the Spread and close the position with a Market Order if and when the SHORT side needs to be STOPPED OUT


FD $40.22

SELL FD-NU FD FEB $37.50 PUT CREDIT= $0.30
BUY FD-NG FD FEB $35.00 PUT DEBIT $0.10
NET CREDIT = $0.20

INITIAL "NET- CREDIT TARGET= $0.20 or $20.00
POTENTIAL PROFIT (x 10 CONTRACTS @ $0.20 = $200.00
MARGIN REQUIRE. (x 10 CONTRACTS $2,300.00
RETURN ON INVESTMENT= 8.70%
EXIT STRATEGY = 1. WATCH LIST 2. MAXIMUM LOSS SPREAD PRICE DIFFERENCE $2.50
1. STOCK WILL BE PLACED ON WATCH LIST IF STOCK PRICE DROPS TO: $38.50
2. ON SPREADS WITH 2.50 or less difference in STRIKE PRICES the Difference
IN THE STRIKE PRICE WILL BE OUR MAXIMUM EXPOSURE - WE WILL NOT USE STOPS ON T HOSE POSITIONS. THEY WILL GO ON THE WATCH LIST AND BE FOLLOWED WITH INSTRUCTIONS AS TO HOW TO PROCEED OR/WHAT EXIT POINT NEEDS TO BE ESTABLISHED

jog on
d998
 
ducati998 said:
Soccy baby............
You're such a tease, put your cleavage away you tart.

Here are February's calls from the same firm that gave you last month's results, we can follow them in real time. My free subscription is now void, so won't have anymore for March.



jog on
d998
Thank you for your kind consideration. It is very kind of you to think of me. However, I never accept tips, or give them, Nor do I subscribe to news or even read the papers....my wife pops in here to keep me up to date with anything she reads she thinks might interest me.:LOL:
 
Time and Volatility have similar effects on an Option position. Time moves in one direction [save one special exception] while Volatility can increase, or decrease.

If a trader has a position that is positive gamma, then by definition he is negative theta.
A Credit spread [written position] is short gamma, and long theta.

Taking one of the posted examples we can analyse the position; Let's look at FD

Sell PUT
Expiry February 17 2007
Strike $37.50
Common @ $40.22
#Contracts = 10
Credit = $0.30

Buy PUT
Expiry February 17 2007
Strike $35.00
Common @ $40.22
#Contracts = 10
Debit = [-$0.10]

Net Credit = $0.10 = $100.00 [less brokerage]
Net Risk = $2,500.00
Return on Capital at Risk = 4%

Now the first point is; no-one will be satisfied with a $100/month return, therefore just as a back of the envelope calculation, assuming that this is an *average* trade, then to return $2000.00 per month, we will be risking;

2,500 * 20 = $50,000.00 = 5% return on capital/month or 60% per annum.
That 60% looks alluring, seductive almost, but you are risking $50K * 12 = $600,000.00
That is the capital really required to implement this strategy.

Moving on;

Historical Volatility = 26.26% [High = 50.76% Low = 6.72%]
IV = 28%
Fair value = $0.20
Sell @ $0.30
delta [-16.9]
gamma 7.9%
vega 0.029
theta [-0.013]
rho [-0.005]

Immediately we can see that Implied volatility is pretty much the Historical volatility aggregated, however, there is quite a bit of potential in the worst case scenario. The 2% margin of sold IV to the Historical aggregate is too low in my opinion for a rational write strategy, especially when you look at your reward to risk, viz. 1:25

We have a high gamma, a 7.9% jump in delta can seriously damage your position.
theta bleed at $13/day is not really compensation for this high a gamma position

This trade was placed last Friday, as of todays prices @ $39.90 we can re-evaluate the position. The DJIA had a nasty day falling, and FD fell with it.

delta = [-19.5]
gamma = 8.7%
vega = 0.031
theta = [-0.014]
rho = [-0.006]

delta has picked up already with a very small price fall; $40.22 - $39.90 = $0.32
gamma has increased along its curvature, and can hurt this position maximally through the strike price.
theta has picked up 0.001.........hardly anything that is going to help you if this price action continues.

Looking now at the probability calculations;

In-the-money probability = 18.7%
Probability to expire worthless = 81.3%
Probability Price > $38.00 = 76.4%
Probability Price will be between $38.00 - $37.51 = 4.8%
Probability Price < $37.51 = 18.8%
Extrinsic Value = $0.30
Intrinsic Value = $0.00

The probabilities, based on a 100 position diversified holding, would see you with 19 trades/100 trades losing.

19 * $2,500 = $47,500.00 loss
81 * $100 = $8,100.00
Net Loss = $39,400.00

$47,500/$600,000.00 = 0.079% loss on capital
Thus the *hedge* serves its purpose, and keeps the trader in the market, but, can you call this a true *edge*?

jog on
d998
 
ducati998 said:
Time and Volatility have similar effects on an Option position. Time moves in one direction [save one special exception] while Volatility can increase, or decrease.

If a trader has a position that is positive gamma, then by definition he is negative theta.
A Credit spread [written position] is short gamma, and long theta.

Taking one of the posted examples we can analyse the position; Let's look at FD

Sell PUT
Expiry February 17 2007
Strike $37.50
Common @ $40.22
#Contracts = 10
Credit = $0.30

Buy PUT
Expiry February 17 2007
Strike $35.00
Common @ $40.22
#Contracts = 10
Debit = [-$0.10]

Net Credit = $0.10 = $100.00 [less brokerage]
Net Risk = $2,500.00
Return on Capital at Risk = 4%

Now the first point is; no-one will be satisfied with a $100/month return, therefore just as a back of the envelope calculation, assuming that this is an *average* trade, then to return $2000.00 per month, we will be risking;

2,500 * 20 = $50,000.00 = 5% return on capital/month or 60% per annum.
That 60% looks alluring, seductive almost, but you are risking $50K * 12 = $600,000.00
That is the capital really required to implement this strategy.

Moving on;

Historical Volatility = 26.26% [High = 50.76% Low = 6.72%]
IV = 28%
Fair value = $0.20
Sell @ $0.30
delta [-16.9]
gamma 7.9%
vega 0.029
theta [-0.013]
rho [-0.005]

Immediately we can see that Implied volatility is pretty much the Historical volatility aggregated, however, there is quite a bit of potential in the worst case scenario. The 2% margin of sold IV to the Historical aggregate is too low in my opinion for a rational write strategy, especially when you look at your reward to risk, viz. 1:25

We have a high gamma, a 7.9% jump in delta can seriously damage your position.
theta bleed at $13/day is not really compensation for this high a gamma position

This trade was placed last Friday, as of todays prices @ $39.90 we can re-evaluate the position. The DJIA had a nasty day falling, and FD fell with it.

delta = [-19.5]
gamma = 8.7%
vega = 0.031
theta = [-0.014]
rho = [-0.006]

delta has picked up already with a very small price fall; $40.22 - $39.90 = $0.32
gamma has increased along its curvature, and can hurt this position maximally through the strike price.
theta has picked up 0.001.........hardly anything that is going to help you if this price action continues.

Looking now at the probability calculations;

In-the-money probability = 18.7%
Probability to expire worthless = 81.3%
Probability Price > $38.00 = 76.4%
Probability Price will be between $38.00 - $37.51 = 4.8%
Probability Price < $37.51 = 18.8%
Extrinsic Value = $0.30
Intrinsic Value = $0.00

The probabilities, based on a 100 position diversified holding, would see you with 19 trades/100 trades losing.

19 * $2,500 = $47,500.00 loss
81 * $100 = $8,100.00
Net Loss = $39,400.00

$47,500/$600,000.00 = 0.079% loss on capital
Thus the *hedge* serves its purpose, and keeps the trader in the market, but, can you call this a true *edge*?

jog on
d998
Forget all this diatribe you have posted here ducatti. I have kept my promise. You must look in my new thread ~ Plain Vanilla Option Trades ~ for you to get a proper flavour of reality instead of pontificating endlessly here about stuff out of dusty textboooks and other nonsenses, ducatti. :cheesy: While you are at it you might let your chum Profitaker know, as he has placed me on ignore, LOL.
 
The second stage of an analysis would be an analysis of the underlying contract, in this case the common stock of FD
 

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I have added Bollinger Bands, as they can be a fair proxy for the underlying volatility in regards to the common stock.

If you are selling [writing] Options, you want a period of high volatility, or wide BB.
At least, in theory, you are progressing down a rational path.

The chart based on the BB is in an area of higher, and increasing volatility.
The BB are opening at their far right, if volatility, as suggested, does increase, the IV of the Options may well increase, thus, making buybacks and sells to close the two positions increasingly expensive should a close out be necessary.

So we add some Moving Averages, and the 50 day period seemingly acting as resistance, with support from the 20 period average. From a directional point of view, up.....down......50/50 I guess..............but with a pullback on the cards on the S&P500, NASDAQ, DJIA, correlation might overwhelm an analysis based on a single stock.

jog on
d998
 

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ducati998 said:
I have added Bollinger Bands, as they can be a fair proxy for the underlying volatility in regards to the common stock.

If you are selling [writing] Options, you want a period of high volatility, or wide BB.
At least, in theory, you are progressing down a rational path.

The chart based on the BB is in an area of higher, and increasing volatility.
The BB are opening at their far right, if volatility, as suggested, does increase, the IV of the Options may well increase, thus, making buybacks and sells to close the two positions increasingly expensive should a close out be necessary.

So we add some Moving Averages, and the 50 day period seemingly acting as resistance, with support from the 20 period average. From a directional point of view, up.....down......50/50 I guess..............but with a pullback on the cards on the S&P500, NASDAQ, DJIA, correlation might overwhelm an analysis based on a single stock.

jog on
d998
I am shocked at you using Bollinger Bands, ducatti.

Really shocked I am...and there we all are thnking you are an expert and can suss everything at a glance....and suddenly you come out with a statement like this....:LOL:

What a let down !
 
Soccy baby.....................

Come on now, you know what I think of techies and their analysis, I'm a dyed in the wool Fundie......................

I'm in the process of crunching the numbers on FD.
Anyway, you've your own thread now.

But, of course, if your technical skills can leave mine in the dust, then feel free to add, highlight, any area's that you feel require to be highlighted for a Technical Analysis of the underlying common stock....................in other words make yourself useful.

jog on
d998
 
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