The Market Matrix

[cjlee623]

This is the last time I am going to attempt to provide advice to those wishing to study MM seriously seeming that most undoubtably someone is probably going to accuse me childishly to having associations with Market Matrix or that I'm trying to sell something, which seems to have happend already. I rarely participate in any public forum for I don't see the point of bantering on things which are mostly obvious, when you might as well just make money in the markets. However, Market Matrix has allowed me to make great profits and a great lifestyle, and I find it a shame that anyone wishing to learn it should judge it by the cover or by opinions of those who have been unsuccessful at applying MM.

The kind of information that I am highlighting is mostly due to the fact I wished someone was able to provide some oversight to MM who actually uses it successfully and making great profits when I first started with Market Matrix. Most of the people bitch*ng about MM here obviously haven't studied it or understood it successfully, but what's obvious is that MM is definintely not for all and probably won't suit a lot of people due to the complexity and time involved to study it. But judge for yourselves. There are thousands of ways to make money in the markets, so why bother trying to force learning something that doesn't work for you??

If you are considering MM as your trading method as I have, there aren't many ways to learn it except the recommended route. I myself have tried to do it various other cheap ways throughout the time that I have spent learning MM, but I have always found them to be dead-ends and only delaying the process of learning MM.

What is clear is that MM is expensive for a lot of people to learn, but there is a reason for it due to the sheer accuracy of it. There is no way around it apart from the fact that to successfully implement MM, you need to buy the original book from the MM website so that it will give you access to the forum which is vital, as well as giving you access to buying the Dynamic Trader Software with the Matrix Cycles feature. Without the DT software, forum and the book you will never implement MM successfully. This is just fact, and there is no point arguing with this. So, in basic terms I presume that if you can't really fork out around £3K to have the above necessity, there is probably little point even trying to learn MM.

Personally, in addition to this I think the monthly newsletter is vital to fast-forwarding your progress in learning MM until where your knowledge comes to a point of not needing it, but I presume this is up to the individual choice. The book after all has everything you need in order to successfully apply MM.

 

[NedKelly]

What is clear is that MM is expensive for a lot of people to learn, but there is a reason for it due to the sheer accuracy of it.

Can you give us a few accurate predictions? Better still, just give us one accurate prediction. Post it here so we can all see how accurate it is and then we will all go out and buy it.

 

[mee1]

This is the last time I am going to attempt to provide advice to those wishing to study MM seriously seeming that most undoubtably someone is probably going to accuse me childishly to having associations with Market Matrix or that I'm trying to sell something, which seems to have happend already. I rarely participate in any public forum for I don't see the point of bantering on things which are mostly obvious, when you might as well just make money in the markets. However, Market Matrix has allowed me to make great profits and a great lifestyle, and I find it a shame that anyone wishing to learn it should judge it by the cover or by opinions of those who have been unsuccessful at applying MM.

The kind of information that I am highlighting is mostly due to the fact I wished someone was able to provide some oversight to MM who actually uses it successfully and making great profits when I first started with Market Matrix. Most of the people bitch*ng about MM here obviously haven't studied it or understood it successfully, but what's obvious is that MM is definintely not for all and probably won't suit a lot of people due to the complexity and time involved to study it. But judge for yourselves. There are thousands of ways to make money in the markets, so why bother trying to force learning something that doesn't work for you??

If you are considering MM as your trading method as I have, there aren't many ways to learn it except the recommended route. I myself have tried to do it various other cheap ways throughout the time that I have spent learning MM, but I have always found them to be dead-ends and only delaying the process of learning MM.

What is clear is that MM is expensive for a lot of people to learn, but there is a reason for it due to the sheer accuracy of it. There is no way around it apart from the fact that to successfully implement MM, you need to buy the original book from the MM website so that it will give you access to the forum which is vital, as well as giving you access to buying the Dynamic Trader Software with the Matrix Cycles feature. Without the DT software, forum and the book you will never implement MM successfully. This is just fact, and there is no point arguing with this. So, in basic terms I presume that if you can't really fork out around £3K to have the above necessity, there is probably little point even trying to learn MM.

Personally, in addition to this I think the monthly newsletter is vital to fast-forwarding your progress in learning MM until where your knowledge comes to a point of not needing it, but I presume this is up to the individual choice. The book after all has everything you need in order to successfully apply MM.

Thank you for your comments on MM.

Please also point me out the differences between the books and 3 CDs since I believe that by now you already read through the MM book. In your opinion,please advise whether book or CDs is better for the beginner and advanced learner to pick up.
Other than the closed MM forum,is there any place to further study or discuss MM usages.

for study MM.

 

[Slapshot]

Thank you for your advice.
I do not understand what you want to mention that "MM takes some serious study and a very very long time to get to grips with".
If you mean the work like the attached picture ??

mee1,

The image you've posted looks very much like a matrix chart. The real issue here is understanding what all the timestamps/projections/forecasts all mean in relation to each other. As I've said before to understand MM you have to 'build' a chart with all the components, to do this you need to understand what all those components are and how they all interact with each other.

So, I hope this has answered your question about the work involved. MM is not just about firing up a charting package and the MM telling you what to do. To get to that point you have apply all the priciples to the chart in the first instance and understand what they mean.

 

[pchees]

Hi

I don't post often on this forum but I thought I would this time as I have just started with the Matrix method over the last 3 months.

I agree with earlier posters that it is best to acquire all the components such as the CDs/or books, software and the newsletter. I don't think you need the CDs and the book, as the book supercedes the CDs. In fact go for the book as there are things in there that are not mentioned in the CDs.

Perhaps the most important is access to forum which helps a lot in clarifying the rules etc.

It takes a while to understand what is going on and requires a lot of hard work, but it is worth it in the end.

The methodology consists of 3 main sections: The Matrix Rules, Elliot Waves, and Time/Price projections.

I have traded a virtual account for 2.5 months and have turned 20,000 into 67,345 so far. At one point the account was down to 12,000 because I didn't follow the rules properly.

I have this week opened my first real money account and will begin shortly.

I like the system a lot. it makes a lot of sense to me and as there is some beauty to it. I am an engineer/scientist by background with a fascination for cycles, astronomy, etc so it fits my interests very well. It also (on paper) seems to work very well.

Of course I realise that trading real money is completely different from trading virtual money so we will have to see how that affects my performance.

May of the trades can last days and even weeks depending upon how you trade with it. Of course you must always use stops and they tend to be quite wide, so you must have the mentality to accept this.

As for a prediction; well the system suggests, although has not yet confirmed, that we have just passed a major turning point for Gold and that it will now go up and go higher than the previous high in March. This will take some time though and it is not certain at this time!!!!

The system had predicted with absolute certainty that the S&P would drop below the low in May back in late May/early June. This finally happened today! That was a drop of 120 points which at 10 pound a point on my spread betting act would have netted 12,000 pounds (a tick being a 10th of a point on the S&P).

As someone stated before. This is not for everyone. You have to be patient as sometimes there are no trades, but it does work very well.

I hope this has helped.

pchees

 

[NedKelly]

May of the trades can last days and even weeks depending upon how you trade with it. Of course you must always use stops and they tend to be quite wide, so you must have the mentality to accept this.

As for a prediction; well the system suggests, although has not yet confirmed, that we have just passed a major turning point for Gold and that it will now go up and go higher than the previous high in March. This will take some time though and it is not certain at this time!!!!

The system had predicted with absolute certainty that the S&P would drop below the low in May back in late May/early June. This finally happened today! That was a drop of 120 points which at 10 pound a point on my spread betting act would have netted 12,000 pounds (a tick being a 10th of a point on the S&P).

pchees

Some previous posters here have said how accurate the Market matrix is. Your prediction for gold is the sort of hedge your bets prediction that economists give. The market matrix is supposed to predict turning points with absolute accuracy. You couldn't trade with that prediction, where do you place your stop, 845?

As for your S&P prediction, well of course it was in hindsight but my system went short on the 21st May. My system is a trend line break, I will teach it to you for free!

Can any MM users give us an accurate prediction?

 

[Lord Flasheart]

The people posting positively about MM seem to be new to the forumn which may be a coincidence but I hope not. I agree with some of the previous posts that why not call out some trades on this thread. It doesnt take much time to post say 10 trades and lets see how it ends up.

 

[trendie]

thanks for posting your view of the MM system, pchees.
It seems apparent, that there are always going to be the 2 camps, either believing it or not. The essential element seems to be the amount of work required to make it work.

Those of us without access to MM will always seek enough data to make an informed decision as to whether its worth the effort to invest money. Its spurious to say "if you cant afford the £3K investment, you shouldnt buy it". But, without some sort of knowledge of its efficacy, how can we know whether its worth it?

It is supposedly based on Delta, so....
Delta, has always had the error-range of when turining points come.
Thanks to the snapshot of MM showing Fib day counts (actually, maybe that should be bar-counts) I wonder if the hint is to use fib-counts on major turning points that have elapsed to forward-count fib-days to possible next turning points.
(I have never satisfactorily made the turning points work without giving a lot of leeway to the points. except in a very broad-brush way on the GBPSUD, as per a screenshot I posted recently.)

One interesting point you made in your post was the "wide stops". This surely is contrary to the pin-point accuracy of MM?

One method of determining MMs suitability would be knowing, of your tripling of your account, how many trades were taken, the risk:reward to those trades, etc. This would then be compared to trades made by any other methods available, such as pin-bars, as a baseline.

 

[mee1]

I do not know why people, who have suceed experience on MM , come and share how the MM works
since what I have read on this board is only the opinion of one to another.

Is MM method being kept in to secret world like DELTA ?

 

[TheBramble]

Is MM method being kept in to secret world like DELTA ?

Neither method is a secret. You can purchase either system.

The real secret is that which you discover after you have purchased them.

 

[pchees]

Hi there

You're right in that the predictions are more accurate. The author of the matrix was initially heavily involved with delta, but he refined it and developed what he believes is a better solution (but based upon the same principles).

In the system you look at time and price, and time is more important. So it basically predicts turning points in the future at different time cycles. You then use price projections to try and refine the exact turning point in price and time.

However you don't really need the exact price because as long as you know a turning point (within a few days) then you can play the markets very well with the right stop-loss. With the price projections on many occasions you can refine it to get the exact price (but it doesn't matter so much)

The system defines different turning points at different time cycles. You can use combinations of these which with a very exact set of rules can give you very strong confidence of where the market will go and how far it will go.

This is not a system for intra-day traders and I say you need quite wide stops, so you have to be emotionally and pyschologicaly ready for that.

Basically you take a chart with say 5 years of data and you solve it (using the rules of the system). This can take a long time which is why the software etc makes it a lot easier but it is not crucial. Once you solved the chart you just follow the rules.

I not associated with Steve or the system in anyway apart from being the customer. For a start I live in Dubai now and have done for the last 4 years.

I posted before because I browse this site on a semi-regular basis with a very occasional post. I wanted to comment on it as a client and give you my judgement. If you do decide to buy the book you will have access to the forum. It will take time to learn the rules, but you can post any queries you like and someone will always answer; including me.

all the best

pchees

 

[TheBramble]

pchees, have you also used the Delta system and software?

 

[R.Wilson]

A turn is due today or early tomorrow,
Any TA Elliott based trader worth his salt will be making note of the 34 Trading days from the May 19th high... If Delta or Copan want to lable it a MTD or MC02 or what ever else they want to call Elliott Wave pattern.....

 

[R.Wilson]

34 days hit the lesser wave 3 of an extended III... Move up yesterday this morning the wave 4

Delta/Copan would call these intermediate points...Now down into the wave 5 to complet the extended III.

This will make 4 lows in a row in delta/matrix speak so they will be jumping up and down saying a Medium turn or MC02 or what ever copan calls it must come in....Which in reality will be the IV....

One must ask, is it really worth spending 3k upwards , then start messing about learning these Delta/Copan idiosyncrasies When its really just a verson of (EW) Elliott Wave re-packaged...

Notice how Copan uses DT5! An Elliott wave and Time cycle programe by R Miner.. Another big flag on the Use of EW in Matrix..

Maybe just focus on EW in the first place...

 

[2be]

34 days hit the lesser wave 3 of an extended III... Move up yesterday this morning the wave 4

Delta/Copan would call these intermediate points...Now down into the wave 5 to complet the extended III.

This will make 4 lows in a row in delta/matrix speak so they will be jumping up and down saying a Medium turn or MC02 or what ever copan calls it must come in....Which in reality will be the IV....

One must ask, is it really worth spending 3k upwards , then start messing about learning these Delta/Copan idiosyncrasies When its really just a verson of (EW) Elliott Wave re-packaged...

Notice how Copan uses DT5! An Elliott wave and Time cycle programe by R Miner.. Another big flag on the Use of EW in Matrix..

Maybe just focus on EW in the first place...

Pure delta approach relates to time of the turning points, using EW is just one way to filter or interpret delta. That is the approach I am using and it helps me to clarify the sense of direction. One can get if from EW alone, but I do find that delta approach helps me to use EW and Fibs on a well established grid on the delta cycles of the ITD, MTD and LTD using daily charts and the EOD data feed. For some practical example see the thread I just recently joined, though I have known one of the contributor on that thread for some time now Discuss the GBP/USD with a DailyFX Analyst - Page 276 - DailyFX Forum
I do use Robert Miner approach and his book Dynamic Trading ( re applicaton of EW) is worth reading, probably it is a must for anybody considering delta approach, and most helpful for those interesting in learning about EW.
Best wishes and good trading to all,
2be

 

[R.Wilson]

I can appreciate that Delta/Matrix trys to relate to time cycles..
Based on that, surely Delta/Matrix can be brought back down to its lowest denominator, of Elliott Wave. After all, the "Turns " are actually wave points working through their cycle degrees.

The Inter/M01 relates to the Minor Degree. The Medium/MC02 the intermediate Degree, Seasonal Long/ MC03 is the Primary Degree, Long/MC04 is cycle degree, the Superlong/MC05 is the supercycle degree & finally the MC06 the GrandSupercycle degree.

When it comes to timing the delta/matrix points, your really timing waves. Its the waves that realte to fibonacci. If people read Minor, Prechter ect ect,as you point out,surely people will grasp that??

The Delta rules also kinda of give the game away about it being baised on Elliott Wave.

One of the rules says: If the trend is up the high points will be dragged late and the low points will be early. Of course they will!!!
If were in a upward trend the up moves /waves are going to be impulsive, while the down moves will be shorter corrections...The 4 points rule is just there to allow for an extented wave or a certain type of correction.. I could go on, but the Delta/Matrix rules are just there so they can fit the different types of Elliott Wave patterns...

Again wouldn't it be easier just focus on the Elliott wave with out all the extra Delta/Matrix bagage??

 

[2be]

I can appreciate that Delta/Matrix trys to relate to time cycles..
Based on that, surely Delta/Matrix can be brought back down to its lowest denominator, of Elliott Wave. After all, the "Turns " are actually wave points working through their cycle degrees.

The Inter/M01 relates to the Minor Degree. The Medium/MC02 the intermediate Degree, Seasonal Long/ MC03 is the Primary Degree, Long/MC04 is cycle degree, the Superlong/MC05 is the supercycle degree & finally the MC06 the GrandSupercycle degree.

When it comes to timing the delta/matrix points, your really timing waves. Its the waves that realte to fibonacci. If people read Minor, Prechter ect ect,as you point out,surely people will grasp that??

The Delta rules also kinda of give the game away about it being baised on Elliott Wave.

One of the rules says: If the trend is up the high points will be dragged late and the low points will be early. Of course they will!!!
If were in a upward trend the up moves /waves are going to be impulsive, while the down moves will be shorter corrections...The 4 points rule is just there to allow for an extented wave or a certain type of correction.. I could go on, but the Delta/Matrix rules are just there so they can fit the different types of Elliott Wave patterns...

Again wouldn't it be easier just focus on the Elliott wave with out all the extra Delta/Matrix bagage??

I have studied EW before I came accross Delta, and agree with you that delta points for those who like me use EW and fibs to tact it, indicate EW turning points, it cannot be anything different. There is however the benifit of delta time frames, on which I look at the price action.
You have mentioned early or late arrivals of these turning points. It have became very apparent to me only after applying delta time frames as a grid, as Delta is above all releted to time. EW is not that concern about time, more about the price, so getting these two concepts together gives me a more reliable framework.
I am not trying to defend, promote or criticise any system or approach that works for different traders. Some people for example say thy are swing traders, does it mean that thay have the whole knowledge of EW, I do not know, some might have, others not, but the sucssesful ones, would place their trades in a manner that you and I would recognise as being in agreement with EW, fibs analysis, on a given timeframe, it cannot be anything different.
For me personally, the coapplication of Delta, EW and fibs related to price and time, have been working well. Some principles eclipse one onother, but who cares if at the end of it one has got a firmer grip on the more likely direction the market might follow on a given timeframe.
I do like to apply different timeframes, as I look at the gearing between them. On a longer timeframes (subjectively for me) Delta IDT and MTD provides this gearing, together with imposed EW structure. I also use 4hr, 1hr and 15min TF, with obvious EWs of different degrees, but this is a different part of my trading strategy, especially on a lower TFs.
As to your last question, what would be easier, I do not know in relation to somebody else, for me both approaches complement each other, and I find it natural. For others I would not like to say, except the fact that without studying the markets and discipline one is very likely to fail.
Best wishes and many good trades,
2be

 

[R.Wilson]

Thanks for the relpy & for the link btw

For those of us who are classically trained in Elliott Wave, we take the time aspect just as important as the price action. If one goes back to Elliott's classic Natures Law where Elliott explains the relationship of fibonacci time on the waves and the use of Timing patterns suchs as a triangles.Then move on to Hamilton Boltons classic work followed by A J Frost & Finally Prechter one can clearly see that Elliott wave is clearly not solely based on Price action.

Relating this back to Delta, if one has a good idea of the current wave cycle, does one really need to know where a delta turn point should be?? Surly the EW pattern combined with time will tell us when the next wave start or end point will occur...

With out a good clear understanding of the EW pattern, people can get cought out tring to trade Delta turning points just because a delta point is "normally" due at that certain point in time. Conversely people can get cought by staying a position to long as they belive a Delta Point is not due for another ex-amount of time so they'll hold...

Your quite correct in saying its down to the individual. However I do feel that if people blindly just Follow Delta/Matrix they will, over time be cought out due to the lack of time and price understanding that EW gives. The old Delta traders saying: " I took a trade because a point was due, but it never came....!" Will never be come obsolite until people understand that Delta is EW.

Which leads us to that question again...
Do we really need the extra baggage of Delta/Matrix??

 

[2be]

Thanks for the relpy & for the link btw

For those of us who are classically trained in Elliott Wave, we take the time aspect just as important as the price action. If one goes back to Elliott's classic Natures Law where Elliott explains the relationship of fibonacci time on the waves and the use of Timing patterns suchs as a triangles.Then move on to Hamilton Boltons classic work followed by A J Frost & Finally Prechter one can clearly see that Elliott wave is clearly not solely based on Price action.

Relating this back to Delta, if one has a good idea of the current wave cycle, does one really need to know where a delta turn point should be?? Surly the EW pattern combined with time will tell us when the next wave start or end point will occur...

With out a good clear understanding of the EW pattern, people can get cought out tring to trade Delta turning points just because a delta point is "normally" due at that certain point in time. Conversely people can get cought by staying a position to long as they belive a Delta Point is not due for another ex-amount of time so they'll hold...

Your quite correct in saying its down to the individual. However I do feel that if people blindly just Follow Delta/Matrix they will, over time be cought out due to the lack of time and price understanding that EW gives. The old Delta traders saying: " I took a trade because a point was due, but it never came....!" Will never be come obsolite until people understand that Delta is EW.

Which leads us to that question again...
Do we really need the extra baggage of Delta/Matrix??

I do agree with what you say about EW, namely that there is a time factor build in
EW due to Fibs ratios and numbers being used both in respect of the price and time. That however does not limit Fibonacci ratios to be used only by those who are applying EW, though from the perspective of EW every point of any relevance is an EW of some degree, it cannot be any thing else. There is a relationship of interdependent iterpretations between Fibs and EW. Fibs assist in interpratation of EW, and in turn EW assist the application of Fibs by providing the points from which one calculates the Fibs.
Delta provides a very stable grid, and Matrix is just one of the way that applies Delta with conjunction with EW and Fibs. In the way of Matrix application of EW and Fibs to Delta, one can say that it is EW on a grid, with added grid cycles (Delta cycles). I do not have any difficulties in saying that in this aspect EW and Delta have much in common, and to a great degree it might be difficult to distinguish between them. However, the Delta preoccupation with time, provides one with an extra dimention of clarity as to when the turning points are likely to be. There are times that EW counts are very complex and Delta simple time solution might indicate that the point have been reached, there are also times that Delta counts are difficult to square, and EW and Fibs are a great help, or a Delta/EW cycle of a greater degree usualy points one in a right way. Delta rules are few and simple, they work very well if one does not try to see what is not there. I find that simplicity of Delta is a very useful insight and it coexsist very well and ammicably with the level of my practical knowledge of EW and Fibs. What I find confusing is that if the count is difficult, some say it is a complex wave and produce extra letters, numbers and degrees, Delta limits this complexities due to time factor, saying simply the time is over. One has choice not to trade in these confusing bits, but at least one is warned.
Please do not interpret me as trying to say I know it all, not at all. I am a learner and study the markets and some approaches to provide me with practical assistance to structure my trading in a profitable way.
I wish you many godd trades,
2be

 

[R.Wilson]

Thanks a gain for the relply..

Seems we agree on the basic premiss of Fib and waves

I can see where your coming from with Delta helping with waves, if ones Elliott is still in a learning phase.
Once one gets to grips with EW, thats when one realises how Delta is really just EW.

Its the Elliott wave pattern determines where a "delta point" can come in, not the otherway round. Again this must open peoples eyes to what Delta really is. How else can one explain when a so called "Delta point" comes early or late??

When people start out with delta, they try and fit the EW to the Delta points, When in fact its the otherway round. Its only when people are comfortable with EW after lots of practice of doing those complex counts ect, that they finally see what Delta is.

Speaking of counts, did people note on the SPX that we got the final move down on Tuesday of the lesser 5th wave to complete a wave III or A as mentioned in my earlier post.

Time wise we had 21,34,55,89,233 ect from verious wave points based on calendar days...

That would make the 4th low in a row on the SPX which means an extended wave, so we now get a move up into a wave IV or B, Before heading lower again in either the V or C.

In delta speak, that 4 intermediate(ITD) lows so a Medium (MTD) low had to come in. So we need a move up to the Next MTD.

The question is do we really need delta/matrix if people have a grasp of EW...