Best Thread The Basics of Trading

dbphoenix said:
I'm afraid you're missing my point entirely. What you have failed at or succeeded at is irrelevant to what is appropriate for someone else. This guy may be a born daytrader. Or scalper. To say that a beginner -- or anybody else -- cannot succeed at whatever is merely a reflection of your own bad experience. What matters more than adopt this style or avoid that style is to find someone who can help him determine what is his best fit, preferably before he loses enough money to make him gun-shy.

Db



Is not just me, it's the opinion and trading results of the more experienced , and I mean the ones that have helped me trade like them and actually make money,

The statistics tells us that 9 out of 10 traders and would-be traders will fail,
never to return, or never to recover lifetime losses.
I prefer to be realistically optimistic to them with real life examples to just
being a high flyer with any trading style and time frame,

My opinion about time frames is that they have different intensity
of risk/reward and stress,

many people can become Cessna pilots, yet very few succeed in becoming
jet fighter pilots even the all want it, but no one starts their training
right at extremely high speeds and pressures on the first day.

if it is to be their trading style they will sure do it someday
 
vergis92 said:
Is not just me, it's the opinion and trading results of the more experienced , and I mean the ones that have helped me trade like them and actually make money,

The statistics tells us that 9 out of 10 traders and would-be traders will fail,
never to return, or never to recover lifetime losses.
I prefer to be realistically optimistic to them with real life examples to just
being a high flyer with any trading style and time frame,

My opinion about time frames is that they have different intensity
of risk/reward and stress,

many people can become Cessna pilots, yet very few succeed in becoming
jet fighter pilots even the all want it, but no one starts their training
right at extremely high speeds and pressures on the first day.

if it is to be their trading style they will sure do it someday

The statistics don't say any such thing. You're going by what you've been told or what you've read somewhere, not by reviewing actual studies.

As for extrapolating the experiences of your acquaintances to the trading population as a whole, this has its own statistical pitfalls.

As for "extremely high speeds and pressures", your characterization of daytrading is debatable. If one is under unusual pressure, it is likely that he has little or no idea what he's doing.

Db
 
vergis92 said:
You can all talk about the 'elite trader in oneself' and encourage all new traders
to lose their money faster than ever and all in vain.

I've said nothing of the kind, but if you want to believe that I have, knock yourself out.

Db
 
Hello all,

I have a great interest and would really like to get into trading. Like many, I am currently in full time employment but, unlike many, I actually like my job and don't feel the need that I want to replace it with full time trading.

Since being in full time work I can only trade outside of work hours so EOD trading seems like the best option. My first question is "Is it possible to still setup trades when the market has closed?" i.e. If for example I come home one evening, switch the PC on, check the FTSE (which has closed for the day) and see that I would like to enter long can I do that at 9pm? If not what exactly is an EOD trader? The only other option is trading on the US stock market which I beleive close at 9pm GMT.

Another question, If I have a capital of £1000 purely for trading, how much of this should I be investing at any one time in trades? I read somewhere that you should only have 1% of your capital in open trades at any one time. Is this correct?

Lastly, I just need to get my head around profit and loss... I have only ever dealt with shares and am very new to the concept of SB, futures and options. With shares I know that you won't ever make a loss unless you sell your shares below the price you bought them at. I know that with SB and Options you don't actually buy the shares. These are merely financial instruments which derive from the underlying stock you invest in. So....Let's forget Optiions for a little while as I know these are for the very experienced traders. If I had £100 that I wanted to invest in spread betting on stock X, I buy £100 of stock X at £1 (Is this the correct terminology?)... How long can I keep the trade open for? Does it cost me to keep the trade open overnight? What I am trying to get at is if stock X goes down to 90p and I have no stop loss, can't I just wait for it to go back up again before I close like with shares however long it takes or do I get a margin call?
So, purely as a mathematical example, if I did have a stop loss at 90p how much would I lose if it was hit? Also, if I closed the trade at £1.10 how much would I gain?..

I know these may seem like daft questions but I am only a newbie (a very determined one!)

Cheers
Frinos
 
I'm no expert myself, but i'll do my best to provide some answers, and let the experts fill up on the rest that i missed out.

Depending on which SB company that you join, there is always a spread within their prices. Different firms have different spreads. The typical for the FTSE100 is a 2 pip spread.
If per se you want to trade outside hours of the LSE, it is definitely possible. But SB firms usually change the spread, usually 4 pips now.
So trading out of hours is possible, but obviously the profits are harder to be obtained.

The American markets close at 8pm as of now. 9pm when daylight saving is in effect. So depending of when you get off work, you'll have probably 2-3 hours to trade.

That being said, you can always put an order on to begin your position, which also means if you're on work when your order is hit, you can't monitor it, or look at how much you're winning/losing.

For an absolute beginner, 1% of your capital seems dead-on.

For rolling trades, i.e. the one you were explaining, about keeping trades on overnight. You need to know that when you decide to rollover the position, you pay interest to the SB company. So balance the interest vs your profits and see which will make you money.

For most day traders, leaving a position overnight isn't advisable.
 
Thanks Snownation,

I though that interest might come into the equation one way or another.
So what would be the best derivatives to trade for an EOD trader?
Actually let's take one step back, what exactly is an EOD trader. Is it someone who trades in the US stocks because they are the only ones open at the end of the day?
 
An End of Day trader is generally, although not always, a swing-trader. They look for confirmation of a set up and either place their entry order within the last 15 mins or so, or the next day (once the initial opening madness has passed).

The sort of trades they are looking for are either specific set-ups which last a couple of days and have targets, or medium term traders looking for entry points at the turn of a trend.

In terms of what 'derivatives' - it doesn't matter whether it is futures, stocks, commods, fx or spreadbetting - all have 'EOD' traders - it just means that they are generally nto day traders, but those that are watching a basket of products and waiting for entry points, probably using 1-2 year charts with daily bars to trade from.
 
Thanks for clearing that up TBS....

So as a beginner what kind of trading should I start with? If I can only trade in the evening (from 7pm onwards) then this means that I can only trade as a day trader or EOD trader in US stocks... Ehm, thats it really... what other choices do I have?

Also is it possiple if one of you kind sirs/madams gives me a brief description on how trades are made in commodities and fx.... I kind of know the difference between futures, options and spread betting but I have no idea how you trade in commodities and fx. Are these just forms of spread betting? What is the underlying stock for fx?

Anyway this is what I think futures, options and spread betting is.. please correct if I have been misinformed...
Futures are where you purchase or sell an underlying stock at an agreed date and price in the future. Hopefully the price you agreed will be different than the spot price on the exercise date and so you either make a profit or loss.
Options are similar to Futures in that you agree to purchase a stock at a certain price in the future BUT you don't have to buy the stock if you don't want to. I think there are Americam options where you can exercise your right to buy the stock at any point till the exercise date and European options where you decide whether to exercise on the actual exercise date.
Spread betting is where you are given a buy and sell price on a particular stock and you indicate how much money you are willing to bet per point rise or fall from that price?

I apologise again for the daft questions... I could just use google to save myself the embarassment but using google isn't going to add me posts to my account.. ;-P
 
frinos said:
Thanks for clearing that up TBS....

So as a beginner what kind of trading should I start with? If I can only trade in the evening (from 7pm onwards) then this means that I can only trade as a day trader or EOD trader in US stocks... Ehm, thats it really... what other choices do I have?

Also is it possiple if one of you kind sirs/madams gives me a brief description on how trades are made in commodities and fx.... I kind of know the difference between futures, options and spread betting but I have no idea how you trade in commodities and fx. Are these just forms of spread betting? What is the underlying stock for fx?

Anyway this is what I think futures, options and spread betting is.. please correct if I have been misinformed...
Futures are where you purchase or sell an underlying stock at an agreed date and price in the future. Hopefully the price you agreed will be different than the spot price on the exercise date and so you either make a profit or loss.
Options are similar to Futures in that you agree to purchase a stock at a certain price in the future BUT you don't have to buy the stock if you don't want to. I think there are Americam options where you can exercise your right to buy the stock at any point till the exercise date and European options where you decide whether to exercise on the actual exercise date.
Spread betting is where you are given a buy and sell price on a particular stock and you indicate how much money you are willing to bet per point rise or fall from that price?

I apologise again for the daft questions... I could just use google to save myself the embarassment but using google isn't going to add me posts to my account.. ;-P

Not an embarrassment at all. Its good to ask questions...I could give you a method to trade once a day and this can be used after 7pm UK time..But I know for sure you would lose money Because you will over ride the rules and the stop rules like most newbies do.…

I recommend to you read loads for 1 year and come back to me, If you want to trade afar 7pm a good market to trade is the Dow. Furthermore, read up on money management, it's the most important part of trading... Most newbies turn a day trade in to a postion trade...

Good Luck, ho do not trade for the firts 6 month, if you do, don't risk more than 500 quid on an account and trade small
 
Hi Laptop1,

Thanks for the advice... You seem to care more about my money than I do!!... No seriously, I don't intent to start investing heavily for a long time now... and when I do I will be very disciplined...
However, I am a firm believer that practice makes perfect... I can read as much on trading and know the ins and outs but with no hands on experience I just can't believe I will succeed..
I will try to find a virtual trading site that I can use but I don't know of any that use US stocks which are the ones I hope to be using.. Most seem to do only LSE stocks...

Does anybody know of any good threads or books on money management?
 
frinos said:
So as a beginner what kind of trading should I start with? If I can only trade in the evening (from 7pm onwards) then this means that I can only trade as a day trader or EOD trader in US stocks... Ehm, thats it really... what other choices do I have?

You are indeed a bit stuck - personally if I only had 2 hours after a days work - I wouldn't bother with trying to be a gunslinging day trader, it is hardly a relaxing pasttime and the more tired you get the more likely you are to make a mistake. So, this leaves you with medium/long term trading (swing trading), there should be no problem selecting a 'universe' of stocks to look at and trade in a more relaxed and controlled fashion. - or look to get into options which are also a more medium term trade, but I woulldn't go anywhere near them until you have some idea of how to deal with 'normal' trading.


Also is it possiple if one of you kind sirs/madams gives me a brief description on how trades are made in commodities and fx.... I kind of know the difference between futures, options and spread betting but I have no idea how you trade in commodities and fx. Are these just forms of spread betting? What is the underlying stock for fx?

Most commodities are traded as futures contracts, so are very easy to buy or sell. Some contracts are available on a monthly basis, most follow a standard 3 months as the front contract before expiring.

FX can be traded as both hard cash or as futures - again, the easiest method (in my mind) is futures. There is no 'stock' for fx, just the real thing - the advantage of futures over cash is also the gearing, as an example one contract of GBP/USD (Cable) represents $62500, but can be held so long as you have as little as $1600 in your account.

Anyway this is what I think futures, options and spread betting is.. please correct if I have been misinformed...
Futures are where you purchase or sell an underlying stock at an agreed date and price in the future. Hopefully the price you agreed will be different than the spot price on the exercise date and so you either make a profit or loss.

No, futures represent a method of buying or selling a product now without having to take physical delivery of that product until an agreed date in the future. The reason that the price is different from the cash price on the day is that there is a 'cost of carry' built into the futures price (in basic terms this represents the interest and handling charge). You may come across people talking about 'fair price' for futures. The fair price of a future is a combination of the current cash price plus the amount of days interest through to the expiry of the contract. So, as a contract approaches closure, the cash and futures prices converge until, in theory, they are worth the same thing on the last day.

Options are similar to Futures in that you agree to purchase a stock at a certain price in the future BUT you don't have to buy the stock if you don't want to. I think there are Americam options where you can exercise your right to buy the stock at any point till the exercise date and European options where you decide whether to exercise on the actual exercise date.

Sort of, if you buy an option, you have bought for a premium, the right, but not the obligation to buy (or sell) a product at or by a certain date in the future. Some options deliver into cash/stock, others into futures contracts (which can be then bought or sold as futures).

Spread betting is where you are given a buy and sell price on a particular stock and you indicate how much money you are willing to bet per point rise or fall from that price?

Basically, yes - again how different companies deal with different products varies.

I apologise again for the daft questions... I could just use google to save myself the embarassment but using google isn't going to add me posts to my account.. ;-P

The only daft question is one that isn't asked.

Day 1, start at the beginning of ths thread. If you are serious about learning to trade there are some very good posts about pre-trading style planning, some honest questions for you to ask yourself - it may even stop you falling into the clutches of those that can 'teach you the secret of trading' or give you that special 'system'. oh - go get yourself a copy of JJ Murphy.

Best of luck.

Out of here.
 
Hello Sandy,
nice to see you again. I hope all is going well for you.

Frinos: You can trade the US markets via spreadbetting outside normal UK working hours. There's no resitriction really on what you trade, provided your chosen SB company offer it of course - you can trade realtime or end of day (ie your timeframe can be minutes through to months - you are not restricted to EoD) on things like the indices (DJIA, S&P etc) eminis, index futures, commodities, stocks (ie shares) - quite a lot of stuff, try looking on a few SB company websites to see the range of things you can trade.

The US market is open from the afternoon until 8pm UK time currently, due to a difference in when we set summer time - much of the year they close at 9pm our time. There is a fairly dead period when US lunchtime rolls around (most days) which leaves around 2 hours to trade in if you want to. This will also allow you to put orders in for the following day if you prefer to trade EoD.

The best idea is to figure out your chosen vehicle to trade, the sort of timeframe you are interested in, then run a demo account for a while until you are happy how it all works - 'paper trading' like this isn't quite the same as using real money, but it's quite close in many areas and you'll find that when placing your pretend trades you make a few silly mistakes - such as accidentally doubling up a trade when you meant to close it (eg you have a short running, then select to go short another point when you meant to go long to close it instead). Getting used to the SB company interface, and avoiding the fat finger problem that unfamiliarity brings are good reasons to play in a demo account first.
Dave
 
Thanks all, you have made me feel very comfortable posting on this thread...

TBS, I have read this entire thread already. I have picked up a lot of things with regards to support, resistance, trends, RR and various patterns... There is definetaly a lot of stuff that needs revisiting as you suggested and I will definetaly read through it all again this time printing all the vital information. Basically I need to get organised with the basics of trading...

I have figured there are no secrets to trading or special systems... From what I see I kind of realise how it all works... I mean if you have 1000's of traders looking at the same stock and patterns and all react to the same trends then predictable things will happen but I also believe that traders are not the only influence on the direction of the stock... If that was the case then I assume you will just get a sine wave once the first support and resistance lines have been seen... Everybody will just buy and sell at the support and resistance lines respectively. This is basically how I see it... BUT if everybody is winning on a stock then where is the money coming from?? So what other factors decide how a stock moves??

OK this JJ Murphy book.. What is it called exactly?.. I remember seeing something about this book either on this thread or another but I didn't make a note of the name..
I put JJ Murphy into Amazon.co.uk and zilch comes up...
 
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I'd imagine you were looking for 'Technical Analysis of the Financial Markets' by John J Murphy, published by the New York Institute of FInance, ISBN 0-7352-0066-1
As you're in UKLand here's a link to a financial bookshop
http://books.global-investor.com/pages/home.htm
tap 'john murphy' into the search bar (not John J or JJ) and you'll get 11 hits, just in case the TA book wasn't the one you were after.
Dave
 
Hi TBS,

In one of your last posts you indicated that it would be best for me to to trade medium/long term (swing trading)... Can I still use spread betting for long term trading? If so I gather that I have to pay daily interest on my investment... What other forms of trading can I use for long term trading apart from actually buying shares?
 
frinos said:
Hi TBS,

In one of your last posts you indicated that it would be best for me to to trade medium/long term (swing trading)... Can I still use spread betting for long term trading? If so I gather that I have to pay daily interest on my investment... What other forms of trading can I use for long term trading apart from actually buying shares?

Hello Frinos,

I use spreadbetting to "buy" shares from between one and six months - only buy the "rolling" product if you intend to hold for a few days - buy the forward contracts (March, June, Sep, Dec) into which interest is priced at about 6% per year, minus dividends. You can do better with the money you thus free up in a bank.

With CMC you can buy most FTSE350 shares for less than the cost of the stamp duty you'd pay (let alone market spread and commission) if you were to buy the shares outright. Take a look at the thread "cost of spreadbetting" and download the spreadsheet at the end of the thread for more info.

Good luck,
UTB
 
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frinos said:
Hi TBS,

In one of your last posts you indicated that it would be best for me to to trade medium/long term (swing trading)... Can I still use spread betting for long term trading? If so I gather that I have to pay daily interest on my investment... What other forms of trading can I use for long term trading apart from actually buying shares?


Purely my suggestion that given the time constraints you have, that you may not find yourself in a half decent frame of mind for 2 hours of intense day trading after a full days work - maybe you would!

Unfortunately I don't know enough about buying and selling shares through spreadbettors, but there are plenty of people here that do - (I'm a currency/indices/commodity futures and offshore sports trader).

Before you start the process of learning all this stuff - do you really want to go down this route? What do you want to get out of it? If money isn't particularly your driver, do you really want to give up 2 hours (you know its gonna be 3-4 hours really) per day? Trading isn't particularly easy money - do you need the grief?

To be frank, after a days work I wouldn't spend my time pratting about with trading! - and to be honest thats why most give up.
 
Hi TBS,

Good questions.. I wouldn't say that money isn't a driver in why I want to do this.. I would say the main driving force right now is the knowledge.. However, there are lots of factors why I want to do this that I won't bore you with... but in a year from now when my knowlege and experience will be much stronger then I will rethink my goals and go from there as to whether I want to do this full time or not....

For the time being this is a mentally stimulating challenge... :)
 
OK now swiftly moving on....

I have a question for the spread betters... When placing a bet wouldn't it guarantee a win if you placed a bet at the same time but in the opposite direction... i.e. going long AND short on the same stock at the same time with equal stop losses on either side... Isn't this a type of strategy?...
How will it fail? I know it will fail because if it didn't then everybody will be doing it...
 
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