Best Thread Technical analysis... a load of ********

If I were to tell you that I do not believe fundamentals lead price and that, to a large extent, price leads the fundamentals, there would I imagine be many that would think me crazy.

Just for the sake of clarification, are you saying:

A) Changes in price influence one's perception of the fundamentals?

or

B) Price moves actually create a force which eventually leads to an alteration in the fundamentals - for example, weaker EPS for a stock?
 
...above all else the leading factor behind market moves is Psychology...

I might not go quite so far as to say it's always the leading factor, but it's way up there. We've all seen it. When the psychology is positive, the market will trade up on good news and ignore bad news, while the reverse happens when the psychology is negative.

I would just qualify things by tossing in the fact that sometime pure supply and demand factors (meaning consumers and producers, not traders buying and selling) act as the driving force behind prices, though admittedly that is usually only seen in the longer timeframes.
 
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Rhody,
I didn't say that either. Gerald Loeb wrote it and at any time when I have made as much money as he did from the markets I might question it.Until then I'll just accept that the probability is he might just have known more than I do.
 
Rhody,
I didn't say that either. Gerald Loeb wrote it and at any time when I have made as much money as he did from the markets I might question it.Until then I'll just accept that the probability is he might just have known more than I do.

I was neither questioning the statement (I thought I indicated that I basically agree with it), nor suggesting that you made it yourself.
 
If you take psychology to be the study of how (and why) we react to things then its clear that market moves occur because of psychology (the sum of personal reactions to events).

This would seem to me to explain one of the most important reasons why on different days the same event can have different effects on price.
 
Jon,
$1 into X$ is about as pertinent as a strong breeze to a knickerless nun at a chastity party. Do you really need me to poke the holes in that old chestnut ? Lets' see $1 on a company that on a probability basis didn't even exist 30 years later means that that same dollar 100 years later is worth ..er nothing....survival selectability.. as an exercise if your years allow...go back over the Dow start when you wish over the last decade then peal back at slots of your choice ,but between say 15 to 30 years slices and then let me know what % of the constituents were still constituents of that universe at the next slice back and then the one prior etc etc...statistics next to war, it's got a lot to answer for.If I wasn't so humble I'd say I know what I am talking about. ;) either that, or I have wasted an awful lot of time.

touche, mon brave :) - but, wot about that little old lady (knickerless or not) ?
 
yes they're right, only Moving Averages DO work, all others don't... it also depends what time frame and what markets you trade, if you trade EOD Eurodollar market than MACD would work as well as Moving Averages
 
Just for the sake of clarification, are you saying:

A) Changes in price influence one's perception of the fundamentals?

or

B) Price moves actually create a force which eventually leads to an alteration in the fundamentals - for example, weaker EPS for a stock?
They are one and the same.
 
This is not to deny the relevance of fundamentals ..far from it and the same goes for charting...but the latter are subservient to psychology.

Burn the pulpit and all who stand in her.
Managed to leap from the pulpit with nothing more than a charred cassock and singed nose hairs...

As I landed on the stone flagging I received a bang to the head, followed by a blinding flash of light and an equally blinding realisation that you were sort of agreeing with me (or at least suggesting I was agreeing with Mr. Loeb whose thought preceeded mine by many decades) which is heart warming to say the least.

But based on your supportive reaction I'd prefer it if you just disagreed with me in future and left the Church intact.
 
Firstly, if money is being withdrawn from the market then it is "lost" to the market and prices will go down commensurate with the amount of money withdrawn (quite aside from other factors).
'Withdrawn from the markets'? If you paid £640 for each of the 1000 shares you bought on Monday and then decided it was a bad move and sold them for £610 yesterday, you haven't withdrawn £30K from the market. You've lost it. The person who shorted 1000 ICI on Monday at £640 and covered yesterday at £610 has your money. It hasn't been lost. It hasn't been withdrawn. It has transferred ownership. Bailing out (withdrawing) means selling a long position or covering a short. Someone loses. Someone wins. Money doesn't disappear.

Secondly, I can't quite get my head around price leading fundamentals (except peripherally, perhaps). Whatever the short and medium term drivers may be, in the long term the market (not derivatives) is all about investment and income drawn from the stocks and shares via dividends - in the long run price appreciation is a bonus. Whilst the health of the economy is affected, in part, by the health of the market it stands on its own and that economic growth leads to higher profits and thus higher dividends and thus higher prices - it's why the damn thing has been going up for three hundred years :D
The first phrase sums up my point about 'Round Earth - Flat Earth'. You said 'I can't quite get my head round...', which is exactly how it feels when you have a strongly held belief and it is challenged. Seems inpossible, ridiculous, illogical.

In the medium and longer term the drivers are perceptions about current worth and perceptions about future worth.

What followed was your belief about what drives the markets. I'm not convinced you're not right either. And trading it your way may well lead to better/worse performance than me trading it my way. But that's the thing, we trade the markets based on our personal beliefs about 'how' it works. And there's millions of us doing it our way with potentially a very wide spectrum of beliefs about 'how' it all works.

Two people looking at the same chart - they trade - one loses the other wins. Perceptions and beliefs about now and the future.
 
"Chump. There was a tale in Money Magazine some years ago about a woman who invested $5000 with Merrill Lynch in 1944, when she died 51 years later her $5000 had compounded to more than $20,000,000 and her portfolio payed $750,000 in dividends in the year of her death"...ok Jon, but you did ask for this ;)

51 years let's start there.
At what age does the average person start to get enough excess income over expenditure that they can make significant investments for the future (allowed to compound untouched) as a % of their gross income ? I'm going to plump for the age range 30 years to 35 years. Before then they are typically buying first homes and making babies.
At what age does the average person start to lose the excess income over expenditure at least in terms of having excess sufficient to continue to fund investments ?
I'm going to plump for 60 years to 65 years of age. Remember I am talking about Joe average. In the past the average Joe would be dead in his early to mid 70's.
In effect he might have a compounding rangespan of around 35 years years max on average so the first point we have now established is he does not have 51 years in which to compound gains so what does the sum $20m look like based upon a shorter rangespan.

$5k let's continue with this. First the sum. $5k in 1944 was a fortune to the average Joe so this woman was already rich in average terms...that sum would have bought probably 10 average priced homes so as I say she was not the norm.
Let's talk about prudent investment. She's investing $5k in an asset group that is above average in risk so a balanced approach to portfolio would say she probably had assets to invest at least double that sum spread between equities ,bonds and cash..so again she's got at least $10k washing around not needed for day to day living and that means at that time she was already quite wealthy.Now putting in a lump sum is not how most people can invest. Most people have to drip feed from income so again they don't actually have max compounding effect on a lump sum for their lifespan of compounding. This decreases the average Joe's potential compounding gain against the gain made in the example where a lump sum investment was made. I won't go into the emotional hazards in depth that even in a long bull run there exists sufficent volatility that the average Joe shoots himself in the foot by exiting the compounding mountain whereas this woman did not.

$5k with Merill Lynch.
Let's think about this. Does it mean she bought $5k of Merrill Lynch stock ? If she did then she either, had much more capital than we have identified so far because putting such a high % in one stock would be risky in the extreme, or does it mean Merill Lynch establish a portfolio of stocks for her using the $5k , in which case once again we need to establish the context of the investment so we can think about the probabilites of being able to replicate that investment.
Now this takes us into the really good part of this analysis, the context which is the timing implicit in the year the investment started 1944 !
I don't have it on this machine,but if someone throws up a longterm chart of the Dow back from 1900 ish onwards ...do you know what would be the start of the longest bullrun in history in terms of real net growth in equities ? By real I mean inflation adjusted. ...LOL
1941/2.
A chart will show you that after the great wash out of the American economy in the 1930's....sell off followed by a couple of bull markets the stocks retreated back to the washout of the 1929-32 period by 1941/2 inflation adjusted...that washout and the demand created by WWII took those stocks on a journey from which they wouldn't look back until around the mid 60's by which time the compounding effect would have been enormous on untouched investments.This was the creative destruction process optimised.
How many such periods could be identified in a similar way to enable replication of the investment. Just ONE, post 1981/2 following the great inflationary washout of the 1970's.
So in considering the quoted investment in probability terms we have a universe of data containing a sample of just two .BUT it's get's better ,let's look again at the dates...we've dealt with 1944 ,but now 51 years on we are in 1995 and the brave new world. This is not quite the peak of 1999/2000 , but over a investment timeframe of 51 years it is near enough the equivalent to picking a top. So ,we've effectively picked both a top and a bottom for establishing our extroadinary investment example. One of only two in inflation adjusted terms that existed in the modern era of finance.
To put this now into context this example bears as much relation in probability terms to the average Joe's investment probabilites as if we were to peruse a handful of new born babies from which we would select the next Mohammed Ali. In other words it's crap. You want to know one of the reasons why Warren Buffet can make money...having watched him now quite a few times it's obvious the guy is gifted in that he can identify statistical crap and he knows what stats are actually relevant.

The above example looks to me like just the type of cherrypicking crap that you might see from the finance industry...Merill Lynch et al , when they are trying to sell buy and hold to the crowd...the type of stuff..."this could be your $20m"...in statistical terms you might as well go buy a lotto ticket ...your chances are probably not dissimilar.
 
'Withdrawn from the markets'? If you paid £640 for each of the 1000 shares you bought on Monday and then decided it was a bad move and sold them for £610 yesterday, you haven't withdrawn £30K from the market. You've lost it. The person who shorted 1000 ICI on Monday at £640 and covered yesterday at £610 has your money. It hasn't been lost. It hasn't been withdrawn. It has transferred ownership. Bailing out (withdrawing) means selling a long position or covering a short. Someone loses. Someone wins. Money doesn't disappear.

.


tony

In your example the money, £30k, has disappeared "from the market" (not that the market actually owns anything) since it is now sitting as cash in the shorters bank account and not in the capitalisation of the shares he now owns. The amount of money "in the market" is not fixed - if there is a net inflow of money prices rise, as they fall if there is a net outflow.

cheers

jon
 
"".................ok Jon, but you did ask for this ;)..........

.

chump

:LOL:

I don't disagree that the cherrypicking of isolated incidents and the clever use of statistics is so much cobblers. However, the very long term upward bias in the market is right and if was a young feller (oh, I wish :cry: ) setting up a trust fund for my grandchildren I would do it by selecting a number of companies on fundamentals or by a "buying the market" fund and never touch it.

cheers

jon
 
The above example looks to me like just the type of cherrypicking crap that you might see from the finance industry...Merill Lynch et al , when they are trying to sell buy and hold to the crowd...the type of stuff..."this could be your $20m"...in statistical terms you might as well go buy a lotto ticket ...your chances are probably not dissimilar.

True. You rarely see the stories of those who bought at the wrong time and watched their investments languish or even decline for decades. Or of those who bought at "tops" who never, even after decades, got to a breakeven point.

To think that the market "always goes up" is at best wishful if one is at all practical. But at least, as I pointed out earlier, one can now buy the market through ETFs. The vast majority, however, think they can do better, and there's the rub.

Db
 
chump

:LOL:

I don't disagree that the cherrypicking of isolated incidents and the clever use of statistics is so much cobblers. However, the very long term upward bias in the market is right and if was a young feller (oh, I wish :cry: ) setting up a trust fund for my grandchildren I would do it by selecting a number of companies on fundamentals or by a "buying the market" fund and never touch it.

cheers

jon

So would I, Jon. Who would not have put all his money into property and just let it appreciate? However, who knows what the future will bring after we are gone? There may be, (in fact, it looks as if there will have to be) a radical change of thinking that will, completely, alter those material values that we hold dear today.

Split
 
True. You rarely see the stories of those who bought at the wrong time and watched their investments languish or even decline for decades. Or of those who bought at "tops" who never, even after decades, got to a breakeven point.

To think that the market "always goes up" is at best wishful if one is at all practical. But at least, as I pointed out earlier, one can now buy the market through ETFs. The vast majority, however, think they can do better, and there's the rub.

Db


All very true, db - but "safe" investment of the dividend stream (if you picked the right ones, which takes us back to fundamentals) does much to nullify any loss in the original investment capital.

cheers

jon
 
....then its clear that market moves occur because of psychology (the sum of personal reactions to events).

This can only be the case if it is individuals placing trades where in many cases trades are placed by completely automated systems via computers and on a massive scale. There can be no psychological impact on the market when this is the case. It is also one of the reasons why trading is suspended on the Dow during times of massive decline because the automated systems effectively fuel an even greater fall.


Paul
 
All very true, db - but "safe" investment of the dividend stream (if you picked the right ones, which takes us back to fundamentals) does much to nullify any loss in the original investment capital.

Not if the price of the stock declines or goes nowhere. If one wants safe, the stock market is not the first choice.
 
This can only be the case if it is individuals placing trades where in many cases trades are placed by completely automated systems via computers and on a massive scale. There can be no psychological impact on the market when this is the case. It is also one of the reasons why trading is suspended on the Dow during times of massive decline because the automated systems effectively fuel an even greater fall.


Paul

OTOH, who programs the computers?
 
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