Teach trading at School.

[Paul71]

Should trading be taught at school? They teach crap, like Geography and Art, why not trading (i'm not referring to trading as crap).

I think yes, they should. GCSE level trading, what would the syllabus contain, is there a logical starting point?

Any views and comments welcome.

 

[shadowninja]

As well as trading, managing finances and debt, Financial intelligence, as described by Robert Kiyosaki, would be a good subject.

People come out with skills to take them to uni or get them a hands-on job a la trainee carpenter yet have no idea what to do when they receive their money, apart from the obvious.

 

[Paul71]

As well as trading, managing finances and debt, Financial intelligence, as described by Robert Kiyosaki, would be a good subject.

People come out with skills to take them to uni or get them a hands-on job a la trainee carpenter yet have no idea what to do when they receive their money, apart from the obvious.

What do parents want thier kids to do? I'm from a working class background, was in the Army for three years, qualified as an electrician, i'm 35 now, but my circle of friends and family can't comprehend the markets in a serious way, it's all too risky, it's not guaranteed.

I think the masses need educating about the markets. Afterall, the markets are the pulse of this planet.

 

[0007]

Should trading be taught at school? They teach crap, like Geography and Art, why not trading (i'm not referring to trading as crap).

I think yes, they should. GCSE level trading, what would the syllabus contain, is there a logical starting point?

Any views and comments welcome.

Success at the 3Rs would be a good start !

 

[DaveJB]

Who'd teach it?
Anyone who taught pupils (well enough for the pupils to succeed at it) would hardly go into a modern classroom in preference to simply trading for themselves, or flogging their time as mentors at a rather better hourly rate!

I think anything that helps people develop financial commonsense is a good idea, it would have to be an subject pupils opted into - ie just like all the other course choices they make - there would be little point in trying to teach finance, trading, or what APR means to those who struggle to master divison and get cold feet when they count past 10.

 

[Paul71]

Who'd teach it?
Anyone who taught pupils (well enough for the pupils to succeed at it) would hardly go into a modern classroom in preference to simply trading for themselves, or flogging their time as mentors at a rather better hourly rate!

I think anything that helps people develop financial commonsense is a good idea, it would have to be an subject pupils opted into - ie just like all the other course choices they make - there would be little point in trying to teach finance, trading, or what APR means to those who struggle to master divison and get cold feet when they count past 10.

You seem quite selfish and arrogant, DJB. You're obviously a throw back from the victorian era, mind you, you are Scottish, i suppose that says it all about your small minded and in- bread ways.

Being Scottish...., must be terrible. Heavily subsidised by the English taxpayer, and a massive chip on every Scots persons shoulder.

Why?

Because Scotland is s......

:cheesy: Have a nice day!

 

[DaveJB]

Well done Paul,
I'm that special sort of Scots person, the sort that was born in Lancashire. It's "in-bred" by the way, you've just insulted a whole nation on completely spurious grounds. I'm also a teacher, I have to live with the bright ideas that people come up with as an alternative to teaching people how to read, write and count.

Would you like to explain how finance. financial responsibility, and trading might be taught to those pupils who (for whatever reason) currently pass through the educational system of ANY nation without acquiring basic numeracy skills?

My point was that rather than make it a required subject it would need to be a subject that a pupil opted into, if you study my original comment really hard you might spot that I was in favour of the idea for those could manage the subject... I stand by my suggestion that anyone qualified to teach trading (ie those who are successful at it) would be rather unlikely to teach it instead of doing it. That seems quite logical to me.

You need to calm down a bit.

 

[Rhody Trader]

Having actually taught trading in the university classroom, I might be able to add something to the debate here, but not in regards to Scotsmen.

Obviously, a basic understanding of the markets and how they work is useful to anyone, even non-traders. A great many folks have to make decisions about retirment account allocations and whatnot. It would be good for them to have at least a clue.

The advantage of teaching trading is that it's a pretty easy hook to keep students focused. Just whip out Market Wizards and do a reading each class.

Of course not handled correctly, the class could turn out a bunch of rampant risk takers out to make 10,000% this year.

All that aside, though, I've always felt that you can learn a lot about yourself from trading. It can help you identify areas of improvement, but also help develop confidence. One of the things I found really interesting was the many ways people reacted to learning trading, and even to something as seemingly inoccuous as demo trading. I actually had one student who struggled to put on a demo trade because she was afraid of being wrong. If that doesn't say something about her, I don't know what would.

 

[BSD]

That's very interesting Rhody, I do agree that trading is very much a journey into the self, a journey that, like life, teaches one to overcome ones fears, that teaches one to ignore the single trade / single mishap and instead trust in the long term outcome of ones edge / getting back on the horse again after falling off.

We all know Richard Dennis and his Turtle experiment - great read, btw is Curtis Faith's "Way of the Turtle" - but what's your take on the "teachability" of trading, how did your students do net profitability wise, and did any of the successful ones, as far as you're aware, go on to take up trading as a profession ?

Mind me asking how you got into trading and who taught you or if you're self taught ?

The first time I started thinking about trading as a viable business as opposed to gambling was after I read sthg about Soros, with a lot of hubris I thought that if there are people out there who can string year after year after year of net profits together I should be able to do the same, lol.

Being self taught I certainly had a rough journey before I not only grasped, but, more importantly, learned to act upon a few simple essentials like understanding that it's fine to be "wrong" most of the time, that it's not an ego trip where being right would be of paramount importance, that it's about being net profitable instead, which can be done with low hit rates provided you're adhering to what sounds like an old cliché but certainly is probably the biggest "public" secret out there, cutting your losses while leting your winners run.

Simple, but not always easy, and therefore probably ignored by most ;-)

 

[fibonelli]

Trading could be taught as a module within Mathematics as probability and in Business Studies as a business.

However, it is a non starter as the "elites" would never allow a generation to become financially independent, independent thinking and with the ability to intelligently question a variety of complex issues.

 

[FXSCALPER2]

Hey, you think Geography and Art are crap? Oh, boy.

What do you reckon is western civilisation is based on? Education is the answer, just in case you are wondering. The dark ages ended partly due to the renaissance, which was dominated by an explosion of artistic expression. You know what dectators fear the most? Art of any sort. In other words, expressions of what matters to human beings the most. Love, death, debates about the meanings of life and our actions in the world as well as political expressions have been depicted using artistic expressions throughout the ages. It is also crucial for our society, therfore our children's education, to know about the world we live in and the teaching of geigraphy plays a big part in that.

Just imagine western society without Shakespeare, Dante, Michael Angelo, Leonardo Davinci, etc. Florence is basically one big art gallery, as are Rome and Athens. What is London without the neo-Gothic Houses of parliament and the impressive dome and facade of St Paul's. Look at the fresco in the Cistine Chapel in Rome. These are all artistic expressions.

The Sun never used to set on the British Empire. Teaching British history is therefore teaching world Geography.

Do you really think art and geography are crap and trading is not? It will be the end of our civilisation when we start to think like that. Why do you think we travelled from Mozart to Suga Babes. It is scary what we are doing to our culture. The funny thing is I am an African, which may explain why I am not taking this stuff for granted.

Good week end.

 

[Trader333]

You know what dectators fear the most? Art of any sort

Not in Hitler's case as he was an artist and went into politics partly because his art was not good enough to pursue a career in that area.

I agree though that Art, Geography etc are all important.


Paul

 

[Rhody Trader]

... - but what's your take on the "teachability" of trading, how did your students do net profitability wise, and did any of the successful ones, as far as you're aware, go on to take up trading as a profession ?

My primary involvement with the students was during summer terms, which are only a few weeks, or one-off class lectures. Being that I'm not on the faculty of the university in question, I really had no real contact with the students afterwards. I worked with a professor, though, and he has told me of eager ones who have carried on beyond the course. He's indicated their successes in some case, but his focus is elsewhere so he's not exactly keeping track.

Mind me asking how you got into trading and who taught you or if you're self taught ?

My first market experience was a DRP for Dow Chemical. My mother set it up and made me put a share of my paper route earnings in there.

That got me at least periodically checking the markets. In high school economics we did some trading stuff, sort of, but weren't really taught much. That's when I started getting a bit more serious. It was the Crash of '87 which hooked me, though. After that I became the human spunge. I absorbed everything I could get my hands on. I even joined the MTA in the early 90s while in college and attended a winter meeting they had at the NYSE with a classmate of mine. The members (including Ralph Acampora and several other big name technicians of the day) were totally shocked that a couple of college guys were at the event.

I did a finance degree, but let's face it, that's not overly useful for individual trading. I was self-taught all the way, and with all the implications in terms of my early performance.

 

[Rhody Trader]

I just received the following by way of a reputation message:

...you and no one can teach trading...

I know this discussion has been had on T2W before, probably a number of times, but these sorts of things have a tendency to come back around, so here we go again.

I both agree and disagree with the above statement.

On the disagree side there are what I consider foundational elements of trading. They include things like what the bid/ask spread is, how the markets function, the different order types, and all the other functional knowledge required for trading. One can also be taught analytic techniques and methodology type stuff in explicit terms.

The agree part of it comes in the implementation side of trading. I can't teach you what market to trade, your risk tolerance, what timeframe best suits you, etc. I can tell you how you're going to react when you have a winning streak or a losing streak, or what it's going to be like putting on your first real-money trade. I can't tell you whether technical analysis or fundamental analysis (or neither) is going to work best for you, or whether you're better off being a strict system or discretionary trader. The best I could ever do in that regard is provide guidance and information.

 

[BSD]

Thanks for sharing Rody

I have a Masters in political science, lol, because I studied along the lines of doing what I'm interested in, not where prospects are best, based on a firm belief that all things will sort themselves out if you just do what you enjoy doing.

I've worked for myself ever since graduating in the mid 90's, and the latest and what I hope last venture whose purpose is to make money is trading, rough albeit extremely insightful journey about myself that it's been.

Have a great weekend

 

[grantx]

FXScalper,

I think biblical studies also has merit, especially the tribes of the Old Testament, eg the Philistines.

So, Paul, at your typical inner-city comprehensive where the average family assets are less than a pot, how would one approach the inequities of participation? If one is barely literate/numerate then the possibility of becoming a “quant” is pretty remote . I know, let’s make the markets “all-inclusive” to attract and empower the disenfranchised. Grade “A”’s all round.

Grant.

 

[Rhody Trader]

I have a Masters in political science, lol, because I studied along the lines of doing what I'm interested in, not where prospects are best, based on a firm belief that all things will sort themselves out if you just do what you enjoy doing.

I couldn't agree more. I chose finance (eventually did an MBA) because of the markets, really. I quite enjoyed becoming a market market analyst after college. Kind of went wondering from the path for several years in to volleyball coaching (another interest, obviously), but never stopped trading. Now I'm back in the loving embrace of the markets once again.

 

[DaveJB]

Re the University stuff - good, but DO remember that you have a selected audience to deliver to... the general school population contains a rather wider spread of abilities than the University. You are unlikely, I would think, to have a lecture audience whose IQ's ranged from 70-130, but that is far from unknown in a classroom. (Feel free to substitute any measure you wish to - IQ is used here as it's likely to make my point clear).

In Scotland time is spent during the week attempting to equip pupils for the world outside - but time is limited, and I don't think the emphasis is badly placed...so if I had to add something to an already full list I'd add a short intro to understanding the real cost of credit, in the (probably vain) hope that people would stand SOME chance of avoiding the incredible APRs they happily sign off on... try to teach them how to keep more of their money, you could run a trading course at the local college for those who managed to save enough to trade with.

Incidentally, I totally agree with the comments regarding Art etc by later posters - even though I'm a physicist....good job Rembrandt wasn't pushed into Trading 101 eh? Shed full of tulip bulbs, attic full of unused canvas....

 

[Paul71]

Next time i post a thread, i must try harder. Harder to be interesting, harder not to insult people and harder..., well whatever.

I enjoyed Geography and Art at school, believe it or not. If Art and Geography are to be a big part of 'civilised' culture, then Art and Geography need to try a little harder. Humans are no more civilised than our wilder animal cousins at times, especially when Art and Geography are big players when it comes the subject of money. You can appreciate Turner, do you own a Turner? Ask the US about oil rich geography, i'm sure they will tell you about the civilised spoils of war.

Trading is not risky, and you are guaranteed to make money, but you need educating about the markets. Not risky,is doing a 9 to 5, you make a mistake, it doesn't matter. Not risky is when you don't have to rely on yourself to make money, you just turn up at 9 in the morning and go at 5 in the evening. Do a lot of people have trouble relying on themselves?

Thanks to all, especially, DJB.

Good trading.

 

[Jack o'Clubs]

FWIW 'Economic Wellbeing' is part of the current national curriculum from primary level upwards. Obviously this doesn't feature trading, but it does cover a lot of the things discussed on this thread, particularly about understanding personal finance issues.

When you look at the thread ShadowNinja posted elsewhere on Camelot withdrawing its Christmas scratchcard game because people couldn't understand the concepts behind negative numbers, or the percentage of children leaving school without decent GCSE passes in maths and English, it rather makes me think that getting the 3Rs right would be a good first step...