Psychology... the poll

Does psychology matter in trading?


  • Total voters
    131
The talent myth

As this discussion seems to be wandering off into another direction, I might as well throw myself before the dogs and add the usual stir :p

It's not the first time there's been debate around this topic, temptrader and other might remember the discussion we had in another thread over a year ago. Nevertheless, I'll add my own opinion to the matter, which is based on what I've read and studied into the matter.

Although exceptional people are rare (always have been, always will be), there is more to it than just 'talent'. I'll be the first to admit that I'm in awe over child prodigys who manage to speak 5 different languages when most other kids are barely able to speak fluently in their mother tongue. However, environment does play an important role. Laszlo Polgar set out to raise his children to become chess players. Surprisingly, all three of his daughters went on to become worldclass players (two are in fact grandmasters).

What makes exceptional people truly exceptional is that they have more motivation and an inherent "urge" to do better than others. Hence they work, study, exercise, train,... harder than anybody else so they can improve and will improve. I - and scientists appear to prove me right - don't believe for one second you are born a genius. Yes, you can inherit some traits/characteristics, but this is not what makes one exceptional.

The environment has a great effect in determining how a child's energy will be used and shows that an extraordinary amount of skill can be developed through sustained and intense training.

Why were champions like Schumacher and the late Ayrton Senna a class of their own? Because they were fanatics. They worked like mad, trained like mad, drove hundreds of test laps more than others and got started very early in their life (driving karts on the age of 4 or 5). Every other driver in the field admitted that Michael Schumacher worked extremely hard in every aspect of his career, not only on the track but also off the track. Again, hard work seems to be the key here!

Newton at the height of his powers was studying 18 hours a day in total solitude in his rooms, and this contributed to his nervous breakdown in later life. Einstein almost worked himself to death in finishing the General Theory of Relativity. Luck has little to do with it, and talent even less. Talent is just a way for people who don't want to understand why "they don't have what it takes" and others do. Talent is an excuse for those who are unable to dig as deep as true champions to find the motivation to outperform (yes controversial comment I know :)

II can't prove nor disprove this but these hypotheses has recently been confirmed by several experiments. One of the best examples is where people with an IQ of 90 were trained to become chess masters. And indeed, they became. It shows that anybody can become almost anything, if he's got the drive and the motivation. And this is what separates the best from the rest: some have it an extraordinary amount, others just in "very much".

For all those sceptics out there, this won't convince you, but read it nonetheless:
What it takes to be great

People are just not willing to accept the fact that they could achieve great things too. But no, it won't "happen to you" unless you make it happen. Geniuses are made, not born. Mozart played the violin before he could speak, Tiger Woods played golf before he could walk. Environment plays a big role: deliberate practive and sensitive mentoring.
"The environment has a great effect in determining how a child's energy will be used and shows that an extraordinary amount of skill can be developed through sustained and intense training" (sorry don't know who I'm quoting this from, but I remember it vividly).

Eric Kandel of Columbia University in New York, who won a Nobel prize in 2000 for discovering much of the neural basis of memory and learning, has shown that both the number and strength of the nerve connections associated with a memory or skill increase in proportion to how often and how emphatically the lesson is repeated. So focused study and practice literally build the neural networks of expertise. Genetics may allow one person to build synapses faster than another, but either way the lesson must still be learnt. Genius must be built.

Makes for an interesting read:
The Expert Mind
E=mc2 and a lot of hard work

If you want to read more and discover the disappointing reality check that hard work is the key, you can The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance, available from online bookstores.

Ok this is enough for a Sunday!

PS: If anyone wants to reply to this post, please so, but please take the time to read some of the articles I've posted first, instead of just advocating your own opinion for the sake of it. I'm not trying to convince anybody...
 
Hi Paul 71,
Agreed on what exactly? Is Tiger Woods born golfer or he is a talented golfer. They are not the same.

searchlight


He was born with the natural attributes to become what he has become. Why is everyone not trading to create extra revenue? Because they can't, they were not born with the correct attributes. That simple.
 
Hi Paul 71,
Agreed on what exactly? Is Tiger Woods born golfer or he is a talented golfer. They are not the same.

searchlight

Why complicate matters? People are not born equal, it's that simple. Psychologists, employers and elite societies wouldn't bother with aptitude tests if this was the case. Can anyone be a top gun fighter pilot or astronaut? We may have to endure politically correct politicians and left wing bleeding heart softies but nature doesn’t care about egalitarianism and evolution simply wouldn’t work if did. Some people can deal with the facts whereas others will argue interminably about them simply because they are too unsavoury to accept.
 
As this discussion seems to be wandering off into another direction, I might as well throw myself before the dogs and add the usual stir :p

It's not the first time there's been debate around this topic, temptrader and other might remember the discussion we had in another thread over a year ago. Nevertheless, I'll add my own opinion to the matter, which is based on what I've read and studied into the matter.

Although exceptional people are rare (always have been, always will be), there is more to it than just 'talent'. I'll be the first to admit that I'm in awe over child prodigys who manage to speak 5 different languages when most other kids are barely able to speak fluently in their mother tongue. However, environment does play an important role. Laszlo Polgar set out to raise his children to become chess players. Surprisingly, all three of his daughters went on to become worldclass players (two are in fact grandmasters).

What makes exceptional people truly exceptional is that they have more motivation and an inherent "urge" to do better than others. Hence they work, study, exercise, train,... harder than anybody else so they can improve and will improve. I - and scientists appear to prove me right - don't believe for one second you are born a genius. Yes, you can inherit some traits/characteristics, but this is not what makes one exceptional.

The environment has a great effect in determining how a child's energy will be used and shows that an extraordinary amount of skill can be developed through sustained and intense training.

Why were champions like Schumacher and the late Ayrton Senna a class of their own? Because they were fanatics. They worked like mad, trained like mad, drove hundreds of test laps more than others and got started very early in their life (driving karts on the age of 4 or 5). Every other driver in the field admitted that Michael Schumacher worked extremely hard in every aspect of his career, not only on the track but also off the track. Again, hard work seems to be the key here!

Newton at the height of his powers was studying 18 hours a day in total solitude in his rooms, and this contributed to his nervous breakdown in later life. Einstein almost worked himself to death in finishing the General Theory of Relativity. Luck has little to do with it, and talent even less. Talent is just a way for people who don't want to understand why "they don't have what it takes" and others do. Talent is an excuse for those who are unable to dig as deep as true champions to find the motivation to outperform (yes controversial comment I know :)

II can't prove nor disprove this but these hypotheses has recently been confirmed by several experiments. One of the best examples is where people with an IQ of 90 were trained to become chess masters. And indeed, they became. It shows that anybody can become almost anything, if he's got the drive and the motivation. And this is what separates the best from the rest: some have it an extraordinary amount, others just in "very much".

For all those sceptics out there, this won't convince you, but read it nonetheless:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...1794/index.htm

People are just not willing to accept the fact that they could achieve great things too. But no, it won't "happen to you" unless you make it happen. Geniuses are made, not born. Mozart played the violin before he could speak, Tiger Woods played golf before he could walk. Environment plays a big role: deliberate practive and sensitive mentoring.
"The environment has a great effect in determining how a child's energy will be used and shows that an extraordinary amount of skill can be developed through sustained and intense training" (sorry don't know who I'm quoting this from, but I remember it vividly).

Eric Kandel of Columbia University in New York, who won a Nobel prize in 2000 for discovering much of the neural basis of memory and learning, has shown that both the number and strength of the nerve connections associated with a memory or skill increase in proportion to how often and how emphatically the lesson is repeated. So focused study and practice literally build the neural networks of expertise. Genetics may allow one person to build synapses faster than another, but either way the lesson must still be learnt. Genius must be built.

Makes for an interesting read:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?cha...9E83414B7F4945
http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...246332748.html

If you want to read more and discover the disappointing reality check that hard work is the key, you can The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance, available from online bookstores.

Ok this is enough for a Sunday!

We're getting closer to the truth now.
IMO it is the combination of nature and nurture.
The world is full of grafters who get nowhere and equally full of talented failures.
A few exceptions excel by nature, nurture and quite often some good fortune
How could society function any other way? The books Animal Farm and Brave New World explore this question beautifully.

Even though Mozart was born with perfect pitch (1 in 10,000 people) his musical ability was nurtured by his father (a leading professional musician of the time) and it is estimated that by the time he was 8 years old he already had done his 10,000 hours of practise. Is it thus hardly surprising that he wrote his first symphony at the age of 9?

Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters are similar examples.

This leads to another far more interesting question.
It seems that all the great sports people and musicians were born with precocious talent which was then honed into greatness by a parent (father usually) and/or mentor.

Why that should we then assume trading is any different and for the majority try to become masters with no or little outside personal assistance?

Furthermore how realistic would it be for a professional trader to decide at say the age of 40 to become a professional golfer or musician?

I would also be interested in first hand information about the following;

Taking as read that even to get to the position where you are considered by a trading firm to be pro material, you already have to have a pretty exceptional CV

(i) How long does it take for a professional company to train a trader to the required level?
(i) The percentage of these professional traders working for a company who are consistently profitable?

Perhaps Trading should become the new "Rocket Science".? :)
 
Not born equal

Why complicate matters? People are not born equal, it's that simple. Psychologists, employers and elite societies wouldn't bother with aptitude tests if this was the case. Can anyone be a top gun fighter pilot or astronaut? We may have to endure politically correct politicians and left wing bleeding heart softies but nature doesn’t care about egalitarianism and evolution simply wouldn’t work if did. Some people can deal with the facts whereas others will argue interminably about them simply because they are too unsavoury to accept.


Hi new trader

No they are not born equal

Very often the percieved winner is in fact the loser and that judgement is made by the majority :eek:

thats why so many position on the wrong side.
 
Winning at War

A couple of elements of the war analogy I find interesting.

First, two pages back, Temptrader said: "I shouldn't say the word "AGAINST" since that would be the wrong way of putting it, but I do believe when we engage it is a war for profits being played out in a battle field that civilians are not prepared for."

That means that their are civilians out there and in this game, killing and pillaging a civilian pays the same as killing and pillaging a soldier. This helps.

The second is that if you are relatively small and not doing exactly the same thing as everyone else is doing to kill and pillage then the other soldiers can't see you. They are fighting visible enemies doing known things. But you can operate in a way that they are not defending against. That's another available advantage.

So, in this battle, we should take advantage of civilians as much as possible and we should act in such a way that the larger or more dangerous players are not aware of us and thus, not fighting us.
 
I can't believe this is being presented as a serious argument. It's a joke isn't it?
Firstly, I was being slight be faceious in the part you quoted.

My point was that being talented at something and only being able to do that something if you are born with that special talent are two entirely different kettles of fish.
rols said:
Well by the same token the new born Tiger Woods didn't know the difference between a five iron and a soldering iron, Yehudi Menuhin the difference between a fiddle and a trombone. So what?
As another poster mentioned.......is Tiger Woods a talented golfer or was he born able to play golf?
rols said:
Whichever way you look at it some people are more talented then others. I'm sure at school we all remember the one kid in the maths class who could do it all with no effort while others struggled with basic calculations. Are you really suggesting that the talented one has no advantage over the other in suitability for being a trader?
Absolutely some people are more talented at something than other people are. Never said any different.

Again though, just because someone is more talented at something doesn't mean you absolutely must be born with some sort of preternatural ability in that discipline in order to achieve some level of proficiency at it.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 
Hi Split

Just away to watch my lad save the day in the local Derby I hope, sure to get peppered both halfs they are a well attacking side :LOL:



Guess thats where the grafting comes in :)

your older than me Split :) how have you coped with the bad habbit removal process ~

any tips for young blood :)

What bad habit do you have in mind? :D

Some were too interesting to remove.

Seriously, don't do away with the habit of walking the dogs. Exercise keeps the mind healthy. I don't have dogs. My daughter had a goldfish, once. :whistling. It was hers, so I didn't have to clean it, or anything, and watching it was very restful. :)

Seriously, I've done gym for forty years, which is a habit I've picked up since Mrs Split took me in tow and i do like walking. A couple of pints over the weekend, no smoking, and I'm right for Monday morning trading!

I do love trading for a few hours a day, though, and find that I do not envy many retired folk of my age.

So, the lesson seems to be, keep trading until you drop!

Split
 
Why complicate matters? People are not born equal, it's that simple. Psychologists, employers and elite societies wouldn't bother with aptitude tests if this was the case. Can anyone be a top gun fighter pilot or astronaut? We may have to endure politically correct politicians and left wing bleeding heart softies but nature doesn’t care about egalitarianism and evolution simply wouldn’t work if did. Some people can deal with the facts whereas others will argue interminably about them simply because they are too unsavoury to accept.

that's absolutely correct. It's unpalatable but it's just the sober truth. No matter how you dress up all this up, the facts are the facts and that's the end of it. I hate all this PC crap, but if you are a politician after votes what do you think your stance be? You're not out to alienate the majority of your voters now are you?

If everyone was the same in terms of "potential" ability and all it required was hard work and study etc. . . there would be no need for hierarchies, and evolution might as well grind to a halt. Or we can move the argument to the propensity to being "lazy" or "hard working" to the genes. Of course it'a all BS what FW and the rest think, because if they knew what that what they believe IS true, then they would be doing it and trying to attain it.v Instead they just waffle and go on about it as if it were a fact.

In the same light we could have a discussion about what is physically attractive in the human race and what is not. Some argue there is no real definition etc. . . if that were the case why is there a fashion industry? or a beauty industry? Same crap in a different vein.
 
Newton at the height of his powers was studying 18 hours a day in total solitude in his rooms, and this contributed to his nervous breakdown in later life. Einstein almost worked himself to death in finishing the General Theory of Relativity. Luck has little to do with it, and talent even less. Talent is just a way for people who don't want to understand why "they don't have what it takes" and others do. Talent is an excuse for those who are unable to dig as deep as true champions to find the motivation to outperform (yes controversial comment I know

Hard work is a necessary condition for this. Unfortunately it is NOT sufficient. What part of that do you not understand?

to make it more clear, anyone else who tried to do what Newton did could not have done it unless they had his genius. I too could try painting 18 hours a day and learn from the best artists of the day, I could do this for decades and still come out a crap artist because - ahem - I am a crap artist.

And if you know what I know, you'd know what Newton was up to during his 18 hours a day.;)
 
For as long as you believe that personality is all that is required to trade successfully you will never understand what "Traders are born and not made" actually means.
Please quote where I said personality is "all that is required to trade successfully". What I said was certain personality traits are likely to make one more likely to succeed at trading.
new_trader said:
You probably think that Albert Einstein was a genius because of his upbringing. What about John Harrison, a self-taught clockmaker who battled alone against the establishment in his pursuit to solve the problem of determining longitude at sea? Renowned astronomers approached the longitude problem by appealing to the clockwork universe, people like Galileo Galilei and Sir Isaac Newton. John Harrison, a mechanical genius devoted his life to the quest and accomplished what Isaac Newton had feared was impossible.
Lets get serious here, to even suggest profitable trading is in the same gategory as any of the works mentioned above is farcical.

All the things you mention above needed a brilliant mind to discover as yet unknown principles. They needed geniuses to guide humanities knowledge in new directions.

Profitable trading, whether you like to admit it, can only require the ability to mimic someone who is already profitable. Monkey see monkey do is all that is absolutely required to be a profitable trader. If I find someone who is profitably trading and simply copy him/her to the exact detail, I will profit to. Will I ever be an accomplished discretionary trader in my own right? No. Will I ever achieve a level of excellence glorified by my peers? No. But I will be profitable so long as I do exactly what the profitable person is doing.

Further to that, if I strike out on my own and simply take the best ideas of other people and put them together in my own way I stand a decent chance of being profitable.

To put that kind of thing in the same class as Einstein is just another ego driven bit of drivel in my opinion.
new_trader said:
How can you possibly believe that all people are born equal? I don’t care about what you think of me but there is overwhelming evidence throughout history which completely and utterly contradicts your view.
I never said all people are born equal. I said at birth all people are basically the same. I said this specifically in the context of personality and specifically in the context of trading.

Now yes, some people will be more talented at certain things such as maths or golf or whatever than other people are. Profitable trading though, does not need any of these specific talents. It just doesn't. It is not rocket science or theoretical maths or quantam physics for gods sake. There are plenty of traders making a mint by buying and selling the crosses of two moving averages.

By the way, why I said that particular thing had nothing to do with what I think of you. In fact nothing of what I post is in any way based upon what I think of you. I don't even know you.
new_trader said:
Take something very simple like....hmmmm...like working out the percentage of winning trades. Some people need to have these things explained and depend on a calculator to work it out whereas I can easily do simple calculations like that in my head!:-0
Doing simple calculations in you head is just another learned skill. With practice pretty much anyone who isn't mentally retarted can learn to do that. Simply because you have learnt to do that and another person has not does not mean you are necessarily any better or more talented at math.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 
It's not about "feeling special" at all, or throwing your ego around. Regards to trading, those that know, know and those that don't, don't. Those that think they know are either losing or breaking even or not making that much money, they either still have a long way to go or just can't make it, which is why they are still working full time and dabbling with everything else, and putting their opinions in when they should be listening and giving something that is being said to them a try at least (can't hurt now can it?). Those that DO know are going to end up leaving their jobs, pursue this profession full time and be "grey men in the background" so as not to draw attention to themselves. Ego has nothing to do with it.
No sorry, it is all about ego.

It is about the profitable trader feeling that they are specially talented and the unprofitable one just will never succeed because they are not specially talented. This illusion of being special and talented can only be maintained if the idea of needing to be born special in order to succeed is held onto. If one were to admit that anyone who practices hard enough could become profitable then one must admit to oneself that what they have achieved, whilst admirable and worthy of respect, is not an inherently special thing only achievable by the select few and elite that are touched at birth.

Mind you, I'm not talking about achieving some sort of god like super ability of trading where everyone acknowledges that you are just amazing at it. I'm talking simply about being profitable.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 
Agreed. There seems to be an arguement from some members that we have all got the same trading abilities, some traders just haven't discovered thier hidden talents?

Bit too PC and liberal for me, but...
Nope, I never said we all have the same trading abilities. I said that to be a profitable trader one does not need to have some inborn special talent that only a select few will ever have.

Of course some will be more talented than others at trading. I have never argued otherwise.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 
If everyone was the same in terms of "potential" ability and all it required was hard work and study etc. . . there would be no need for hierarchies, and evolution might as well grind to a halt. Or we can move the argument to the propensity to being "lazy" or "hard working" to the genes. Of course it'a all BS what FW and the rest think, because if they knew what that what they believe IS true, then they would be doing it and trying to attain it.v Instead they just waffle and go on about it as if it were a fact.

temptrader, I've given you several concrete examples for the REAL world where people have shown an extraordinary level of proficiency can be acquired. You've apparently chosen to ignore those and reflect on that with a personal comment about your skills (or lack of) as a potential artist. Like I said before, environment plays an important role. Your comment about becoming an artist again fails to acknowledge this fact. Fine if you truly believe it's all BS. Like I said before, I'm not here to convince anyone.

As from my own personal experience (which doesn't really matter when trying to objectively analyze the concept), but yes, I can definitely say it's true. Compare my first posts here with those from about 15 months later. I'm amazed at the progress I've made and how differently I look at a chart now. If not to the outside world, I've proven to myself to be quite capable of attaining a highly enough level to distinguish myself from the majority. The only cause for this is the hundreds if not thousands hours of screentime and painstaking efforts. I'm positively sure a lot of people would've given much and in fact, a lot of people do.

Also, I find it ironic that mr. marcus would recommend your post, given he himself talked about the 10.000+ hours of screentime he put in to analyze the market. I'd quote the post here, but unfortunately most of his posts have vanished.

On a sidenote, I'm sure you can think of systems where there's no need for hierarchies. What about the market?
 
Please quote where I said personality is "all that is required to trade successfully". What I said was certain personality traits are likely to make one more likely to succeed at trading.

Lets get serious here, to even suggest profitable trading is in the same gategory as any of the works mentioned above is farcical.

All the things you mention above needed a brilliant mind to discover as yet unknown principles. They needed geniuses to guide humanities knowledge in new directions.

Profitable trading, whether you like to admit it, can only require the ability to mimic someone who is already profitable. Monkey see monkey do is all that is absolutely required to be a profitable trader. If I find someone who is profitably trading and simply copy him/her to the exact detail, I will profit to. Will I ever be an accomplished discretionary trader in my own right? No. Will I ever achieve a level of excellence glorified by my peers? No. But I will be profitable so long as I do exactly what the profitable person is doing.

Further to that, if I strike out on my own and simply take the best ideas of other people and put them together in my own way I stand a decent chance of being profitable.

To put that kind of thing in the same class as Einstein is just another ego driven bit of drivel in my opinion.

I never said all people are born equal. I said at birth all people are basically the same. I said this specifically in the context of personality and specifically in the context of trading.

Now yes, some people will be more talented at certain things such as maths or golf or whatever than other people are. Profitable trading though, does not need any of these specific talents. It just doesn't. It is not rocket science or theoretical maths or quantam physics for gods sake. There are plenty of traders making a mint by buying and selling the crosses of two moving averages.

By the way, why I said that particular thing had nothing to do with what I think of you. In fact nothing of what I post is in any way based upon what I think of you. I don't even know you.

Doing simple calculations in you head is just another learned skill. With practice pretty much anyone who isn't mentally retarted can learn to do that. Simply because you have learnt to do that and another person has not does not mean you are necessarily any better or more talented at math.

Cheers,
PKFFW

Exactly. And here is the dichotomy of individual human perceptions. For one who finds trading easy then they really are 'playing the markets' and for those who are perplexed then it may as well be 'rocket science'.

It is futile to attempt to find platitudes for something as complex as how human beings perceive and learn. If learning and teaching where that easy to define then why is our education system for reading and writing so appalling?

An example I used some time ago was the self assembly of a piece of IKEA furniture.
Some would spend hours pondering over the diagram and maybe get halfway and give up while others would just chuck all the pieces on the floor and put it together in no time stating it isn't rocket science.

There are also a number of great traders who after achieving their millions ended up bankrupt or teaching seminars for a living.

I have seen many on these boards over the years proclaim they have crossed the mystic threshold of becoming profitable only to fade away or return some months later in pursuit of the next magic solution.

To say one can just imitate another and their system and become successful isn't strictly true (you know this really) and surprising especially after your previous emphasis on personality. I know NLP claims that one can 'model' successful people but I am very skeptical of its claims, and dubious of the benefits.

The traders that make a mint with two MAs may well have some other hidden attributes I boldly suggest.

To quote Ian Beale off East Enders, "If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it."
 
. . . . . . . . . . . . . is the battlefield. It is a virtual battlefield where soldiers do not wear any uniforms so you don't know whose side to be on. It's made up of civilians fighting with muskets, platoons fighting with bolt action rifles, companies equipped with machine guns and battalions equipped with heavy artillery. They are all fighting to gain ground and those with the best plans, the best tactics and the heaviest battalions will win. You want to make sure you are fighting on the side with the heaviest battalions and make sure they don’t turn the weapons on you!

“The eye only sees what the mind is prepared to comprehend.”
Henri L Bergson

=====================================================================

Ah new trader, we SO disagree here !

My favorite students are women, simply because of the lack of testosterone, which leads to so many "pissing contests" and by reflection, the need to WIN, to be masters of the universe, to pillage and rape towns, to drop bombs and destroy, so ONE person can rise to the top of the heap, grab the flag and now is KING OF THE HILL !

its games we boys play from early on --- the lone superhero defending "his" turf (although one has to wonder WHO gave him that turf to call his own" ?

In a land of "might makes right", I can see where conflicts and obstacles become "battles" to be won -- for me, almost everything that becomes an obstacle in my life is treated as a business deal --- "what is it that YOU want to "fix" this situation, and what is it that I want ?"

but for trading, we are NOT fighting anyone except the enemy within our minds --- we dont "plot" some rulers downfall, we learn and understand the movements on the board before us, ultimately reaping the profits or losses dependent on our degree of knowledge and experience.

There should be NO ANGER, no need to defeat, no need to shake and maim and kill --- WHO would you defeat and maim and kill anyway ?

Its a game, and if one feels SO STRONGLY about HAVING to win the game, you got one scary dude.

theres an old story about a beautiful woman and the use of a pillow that comes to mind, -- "you can take that pillow and use it to suffocate the woman, or you can take that pillow, place it beneath her hips and the two of you can enjoy tremendous joy !

I know where i like to place the pillow !

"a zen archer does not "shoot" an arrow but rather, becomes "part" of the essence of that arrow !"

have to go -- the McGivers are coming over today and i have to get the silk pillows ready !

youre eternally optimistic but crusty trader/philospher/historian/teacher/auto mechanic/racontour and chef

mp
 
No sorry, it is all about ego.

It is about the profitable trader feeling that they are specially talented and the unprofitable one just will never succeed because they are not specially talented. This illusion of being special and talented can only be maintained if the idea of needing to be born special in order to succeed is held onto. If one were to admit that anyone who practices hard enough could become profitable then one must admit to oneself that what they have achieved, whilst admirable and worthy of respect, is not an inherently special thing only achievable by the select few and elite that are touched at birth.

Mind you, I'm not talking about achieving some sort of god like super ability of trading where everyone acknowledges that you are just amazing at it. I'm talking simply about being profitable.

Cheers,
PKFFW

No, it's not. Very few make it in this profession because they don't have what it takes. It's got nothing to do with feeling special at all. It's just the way it is.

And in case you don't understand what I'm trying to say: Nature does not confer gifts equally. It is totally fair and impartial in that sense, because she does as she pleases, and is not influenced by anyone. And hence it is not my place, nor anyone else's, to say who's going to be profitable and make it or who won't. And no, not anyone who practices hard enough could become profitable, because from your reason alone anyone could do it and that is clearly not the case at all. Hard work and diligent study are necessary conditions, unfortunately they are NOT sufficient.

What you can have is different degrees of success. I personally know of a few academics who spent decades in chairs and don't produce groundbreaking research but their institute still lets them hold their positions. And it's not for want of trying either, since they are probably the hardest working individuals I know. That's just how life is.
 
On a sidenote, I'm sure you can think of systems where there's no need for hierarchies. What about the market?

:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

God, you crack me up. Hint: who do you think the strong hands are, eh?

PKFFW said:
Profitable trading, whether you like to admit it, can only require the ability to mimic someone who is already profitable. Monkey see monkey do is all that is absolutely required to be a profitable trader. If I find someone who is profitably trading and simply copy him/her to the exact detail, I will profit to.

if you play like a monkey, expect to be f*cked, if not in the short term, but definitely in the long term. If you mimic someone you are just basically taking a tip. And also this brings in logistical issues about whether that someone would want you around to see what he's doing anyway and all those other issues.
 
Monkey See, Monkey Do.

Monkey put ball on tee, monkey hit ball with optimal club, monkey in US open.:clap:Well done monkey.


Monkey trader/tutor teach monkey how to trade, monkey come on T2W and call monkey tutor conman.


I won't mention the charity thread! Monkey see, monkey do!


See ya'll later, traders.
 
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