sandpiper
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credit where credit is due...... elite are tops when it comes to conducting witch hunts (albeit about 7 years after everybody else has been there). The anti Pristine lobby has been around for years with various "spats" over on SI in the late 90's. Some of it was actually quite funny since it came down to disagreements between different subscription based trading services.
More info than you can shake a stick at is available on Pristine for anybody that can be bothered to do the research. And as Naz says, providing that you are not the sort of person who comes away from a time-share presentations with a new condo in Beirut, then why not go to the Friday freebie and find out for yourself?
More info than you can shake a stick at is available on Pristine for anybody that can be bothered to do the research. And as Naz says, providing that you are not the sort of person who comes away from a time-share presentations with a new condo in Beirut, then why not go to the Friday freebie and find out for yourself?
I hope you all do attended the free event to make up your own minds. These two jokers from elite obviously have some personal axe to grind with Pristine and most that are willing to educate. I have been to both of Pristine's seminars and there are no gimmicks, hype or false promises of easy money. There is a well organized method of analysis and they tell you it's up to you to apply the method objectively.
As you have said, go and find out for yourself.
As you have said, go and find out for yourself.
Naz
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In learning i believe you take a lttle from here and a little from there.However the thing is you have to go out and find it.Which ever way that might be.Either for free or for payment.You make your own choice.
I couldn't care less if Oliver Valez and Greg Capra sold Ice creams on a Miami beach before they started Pristine.It only takes one idea from their or anyones book,seminar or cd to add to an individuals existing knowledge base that could help them in their on going trading education.
I couldn't care less if Oliver Valez and Greg Capra sold Ice creams on a Miami beach before they started Pristine.It only takes one idea from their or anyones book,seminar or cd to add to an individuals existing knowledge base that could help them in their on going trading education.
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Naz,
I think the point is the honesty of said vendors. If they lied about their experience it might influence a persons purchase of their material. Or if you found out that they make most of their money from selling courses, not trading?
I was talking to a vendor who was trying to sell me a course. Made trading sound easy, he just put on a few postions a day, watched it trend and was now extremely wealthy. Got readers award in Stocks and commodities magazine too.
I just happened to find out (from Elite trader) that the vendor was a convicted fraud who had lost money in 6 consecutive years as a trader. He was wealthy though- from the courses he sold, still advertised in Stocks and Commodities magazine. From what I hear his business is going better than ever.
So many gullible types like me out there. :cheesy:
I bought an absolute ripoff software too, thousands of dollars worth, used it for several months and if you had asked me I would have said it was great (for the first 2 months) simply because I wanted to believe. Now it sits in a box. LOL
I think the point is the honesty of said vendors. If they lied about their experience it might influence a persons purchase of their material. Or if you found out that they make most of their money from selling courses, not trading?
I was talking to a vendor who was trying to sell me a course. Made trading sound easy, he just put on a few postions a day, watched it trend and was now extremely wealthy. Got readers award in Stocks and commodities magazine too.
I just happened to find out (from Elite trader) that the vendor was a convicted fraud who had lost money in 6 consecutive years as a trader. He was wealthy though- from the courses he sold, still advertised in Stocks and Commodities magazine. From what I hear his business is going better than ever.
So many gullible types like me out there. :cheesy:
I bought an absolute ripoff software too, thousands of dollars worth, used it for several months and if you had asked me I would have said it was great (for the first 2 months) simply because I wanted to believe. Now it sits in a box. LOL
Thanks Naz,
Education is a critical part of education, and there are good and reasonably priced courses - by GENUINE successful traders (I hope so anyway. Maybe yours?:cheesy: )
I learned, the hard way, the first thing to ask is for verified proof of a teachers trading record. Otherwise what you are going to receive is a convincing lesson- that may not really work. Most of us don't want to spend thousands of hours learning: reading, using simulators, trading small lots, learning to analyse charts, etc etc. so we easily fall for the conmen who offer a weekend all in one. Then rush in with our new 'secrets' and eventually lose our stake and become one of the 95% who leave trading, probably thinking we don't have what it takes.
Trading is so different from other fields too in that the media actively collude with the conmen. This is all brought out clearly on EliteTrader but on T2win I see people referencing rags like Stocks and Commodities as if they were neutral referees.
Read this thread on Et for instance:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26634&highlight=rsofhouston
It is part of what makes a successful trader- finding out what is wheat and what is chaff. That process is very expensive if you buy course after course. Instead learn from others and avoid their mistakes.To members of T2Win - have a look at ET- it can be a battlefield but there are many, longtime professional traders there who can smell a rat. There are of course idiots too, but ask questions, dialogue and - provided you are trading yourself who knows what and who doesn't becomes clearer.
This is no reflection on Pristine as I only read their book. They may be the best training in the world :cheesy:
Education is a critical part of education, and there are good and reasonably priced courses - by GENUINE successful traders (I hope so anyway. Maybe yours?:cheesy: )
I learned, the hard way, the first thing to ask is for verified proof of a teachers trading record. Otherwise what you are going to receive is a convincing lesson- that may not really work. Most of us don't want to spend thousands of hours learning: reading, using simulators, trading small lots, learning to analyse charts, etc etc. so we easily fall for the conmen who offer a weekend all in one. Then rush in with our new 'secrets' and eventually lose our stake and become one of the 95% who leave trading, probably thinking we don't have what it takes.
Trading is so different from other fields too in that the media actively collude with the conmen. This is all brought out clearly on EliteTrader but on T2win I see people referencing rags like Stocks and Commodities as if they were neutral referees.
Read this thread on Et for instance:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26634&highlight=rsofhouston
It is part of what makes a successful trader- finding out what is wheat and what is chaff. That process is very expensive if you buy course after course. Instead learn from others and avoid their mistakes.To members of T2Win - have a look at ET- it can be a battlefield but there are many, longtime professional traders there who can smell a rat. There are of course idiots too, but ask questions, dialogue and - provided you are trading yourself who knows what and who doesn't becomes clearer.
This is no reflection on Pristine as I only read their book. They may be the best training in the world :cheesy:
Robert,
"Most of us don't want to spend thousands of hours learning: reading, using simulators, trading small lots, learning to analyse charts, etc etc. so we easily fall for the conmen who offer a weekend all in one".
No offence, but arguably if the above is a true statement then you are getting what you deserve.
It's been said countless times before this is not an easy money game...it's been highlighted countless times before where taking shortcuts will lead you....and yet peppered all over the forum are tales of woe...call me anything you like ,but I am tired of reading sympathy stories from people who could not even take the time to read or consider the advice given so openly and so freely...
What is it with people..is it because the advice is given free it must have no value so can be ignored...
How do we learn ? Efficient learning is about gathering information,organising information and analysing information..said information being both about yourself as a player and about the market and the game you wish to play.
Simple fact , there is a wide disparity between people in how 'efficiently' they do this and for some people free advice will not be enough...(this is not aimed at you personally Robert). It's a wider viewpoint...and I wish you well with your "education"..
Now looking for 3 yellow boxes...LOL
"Most of us don't want to spend thousands of hours learning: reading, using simulators, trading small lots, learning to analyse charts, etc etc. so we easily fall for the conmen who offer a weekend all in one".
No offence, but arguably if the above is a true statement then you are getting what you deserve.
It's been said countless times before this is not an easy money game...it's been highlighted countless times before where taking shortcuts will lead you....and yet peppered all over the forum are tales of woe...call me anything you like ,but I am tired of reading sympathy stories from people who could not even take the time to read or consider the advice given so openly and so freely...
What is it with people..is it because the advice is given free it must have no value so can be ignored...
How do we learn ? Efficient learning is about gathering information,organising information and analysing information..said information being both about yourself as a player and about the market and the game you wish to play.
Simple fact , there is a wide disparity between people in how 'efficiently' they do this and for some people free advice will not be enough...(this is not aimed at you personally Robert). It's a wider viewpoint...and I wish you well with your "education"..
Now looking for 3 yellow boxes...LOL
Sirlosealot
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I’m a newbie, this is my first post and I'm a bit nervous of airing my views on this subject for fear of getting shot down in flames. So please don't be too harsh in your replies
I have been studying trading for some months now and have even tried paper trading using D4F and FXCM demo platforms. My miserable efforts have convinced me to keep learning for a bit longer and I’m still searching for the Holy Grail. I am a prime target for the likes of Pristine. At my stage in the learning process the lure of learning the mystical art of trading from a successful trader is great. Particularly if they seem to be respectable and advertise in my favourite BB :cheesy:
Now as I see it the Elite trader thread has raised serious points, which Pristine should answer. I have been lurking in both these BBs for some time soaking up much useful info. The one overwhelming bit of info I have gleaned is that it’s real easy to talk the talk about trading and all its facets such as discipline, money management strategies etc etc but practically impossible to make money consistently over a long period in changing market conditions. I bet any good journalist or writer could trawl through T2W and Elite sites and write a first class trading book or give a seminar every bit as good as any of these $2,000 courses. But they and anybody reading the book or attending the seminar still could not necessarily make money out of the market.
Pristine uses the fact that Velez and Capra are great traders who have cracked the market big time. The Elite posts throw some doubt on this. Does this mean they have never made consistent money in the markets because if they had why do they feel they have to lie like this. Would you knowingly spend $2,000 on a course written and run by someone who could not make money out of the markets? I certainly wouldn’t. On the face of it their claims do not seem to add up. Why do they make such claims? Clearly they understand that someone like me would think twice about spending $2,000 on a seminar run by someone who could not make money in the real markets. Has anyone really learnt to trade successfully using their methods rather than going through the long hard slog route which might, by chance, include spending $2,000 on a seminar or two. I think we ought to be told.
Now I might be wrong and I may end up one of the 90% who never make money, but I’m satisfied that I can get all the information I need from BBs like T2W and Elite along with a few regular priced books like Elder, Douglas etc. After that its up to me. There’s no need to spend big bucks on courses run by people who feel they have to lie about their experience in order to attract my business. If I’m going to spend that sort of money then I’m going need proof that the person I pay really knows how to trade.
All they have to do is to give us some credible information that their claims of greatness in the trading field relate to their actual trading ability and not to their marketing ability. Am I being unreasonable here?
I have been studying trading for some months now and have even tried paper trading using D4F and FXCM demo platforms. My miserable efforts have convinced me to keep learning for a bit longer and I’m still searching for the Holy Grail. I am a prime target for the likes of Pristine. At my stage in the learning process the lure of learning the mystical art of trading from a successful trader is great. Particularly if they seem to be respectable and advertise in my favourite BB :cheesy:
Now as I see it the Elite trader thread has raised serious points, which Pristine should answer. I have been lurking in both these BBs for some time soaking up much useful info. The one overwhelming bit of info I have gleaned is that it’s real easy to talk the talk about trading and all its facets such as discipline, money management strategies etc etc but practically impossible to make money consistently over a long period in changing market conditions. I bet any good journalist or writer could trawl through T2W and Elite sites and write a first class trading book or give a seminar every bit as good as any of these $2,000 courses. But they and anybody reading the book or attending the seminar still could not necessarily make money out of the market.
Pristine uses the fact that Velez and Capra are great traders who have cracked the market big time. The Elite posts throw some doubt on this. Does this mean they have never made consistent money in the markets because if they had why do they feel they have to lie like this. Would you knowingly spend $2,000 on a course written and run by someone who could not make money out of the markets? I certainly wouldn’t. On the face of it their claims do not seem to add up. Why do they make such claims? Clearly they understand that someone like me would think twice about spending $2,000 on a seminar run by someone who could not make money in the real markets. Has anyone really learnt to trade successfully using their methods rather than going through the long hard slog route which might, by chance, include spending $2,000 on a seminar or two. I think we ought to be told.
Now I might be wrong and I may end up one of the 90% who never make money, but I’m satisfied that I can get all the information I need from BBs like T2W and Elite along with a few regular priced books like Elder, Douglas etc. After that its up to me. There’s no need to spend big bucks on courses run by people who feel they have to lie about their experience in order to attract my business. If I’m going to spend that sort of money then I’m going need proof that the person I pay really knows how to trade.
All they have to do is to give us some credible information that their claims of greatness in the trading field relate to their actual trading ability and not to their marketing ability. Am I being unreasonable here?
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TheBramble
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Gerard, an insightful first post.
You're right. The desire to get some expensive training from a guru can be a big draw. But as you've already recognised, T2W, ET, and recommended trading books will do a far more effective and efficient job.
Your idea about trawling these boards and concocting a traders bible may not be so far-fetched. I tend to think the result would be a potentially better read than virtually anything else out there on the market at the moment.
Sharky - is this an idea?
There is no Holy Grail. And if there were, why would anyone sell it?
There are a few good trainings and trainers which you will come across on these boards. One (can't remember the name) provides general TA rather than any specific system and has had good reports. The other is a specialist in NASDAQ Level-II trading and you will undoubtedly become aware of Naz (T2Wmember) in due course.
Other than that, welcome to T2W and may your trading eduction be an enjoyable journey.
You're right. The desire to get some expensive training from a guru can be a big draw. But as you've already recognised, T2W, ET, and recommended trading books will do a far more effective and efficient job.
Your idea about trawling these boards and concocting a traders bible may not be so far-fetched. I tend to think the result would be a potentially better read than virtually anything else out there on the market at the moment.
Sharky - is this an idea?
There is no Holy Grail. And if there were, why would anyone sell it?
There are a few good trainings and trainers which you will come across on these boards. One (can't remember the name) provides general TA rather than any specific system and has had good reports. The other is a specialist in NASDAQ Level-II trading and you will undoubtedly become aware of Naz (T2Wmember) in due course.
Other than that, welcome to T2W and may your trading eduction be an enjoyable journey.
TheBramble
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DaveGos said:
Good points Dave, although TTMDT contains a few serious typos.
I emailed Pristine notifying them of the problems, but never got a response.
Information flow with Pristine seems to be very much a one-directional thing.
All in all, I gained from reading the book, though I probably wouldn't place any trading funds or training funds in their hands.
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Gerald and Bramble,
needless to say I agree with your comments.
Nevertheless, I have a library of 50 or so trading books and consider it mostly well spent. have also paid for a few expensive trading courses - where the benefit/cost ratio went down.
I do think Naz gives great advice on this forum - if I lived in England I would probably join one of his seminars.
needless to say I agree with your comments.
Nevertheless, I have a library of 50 or so trading books and consider it mostly well spent. have also paid for a few expensive trading courses - where the benefit/cost ratio went down.
I do think Naz gives great advice on this forum - if I lived in England I would probably join one of his seminars.
Naz said:
The most intriguing post in this thread. I have nothing to lose by you dropping money with Pristine. My impression of the UK people has always been: class, class, class.
Us fuc*ers from the US cant even speak YOUR language properly. The US is like Montreal of GB. What do I have to gain? Preventing people from getting screwed by Pristine. I have spent countless hours doing reseacrh on Oliver Velez, Greg Capra and Pristine. Out of many former Pristine employees, only 1 has proven to be honest.
Take Naz's advice. Do you research, I did most of it for you it's in the thread on ET http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=29357
No lies, no BS just pure facts. Take this information and like a lawyer ask Mr. Velez about his past, trading ability and so on. You Brits are pretty smart...see how he or his entourage answers. If you want to tell how someone is lying watch the latest version of "Ocean's Eleven".
What do I and other US traders have to gain if you ignore me? You spending money on Pristine's courses and using the method. Our upside? Making money from your dated and snakeoiling method that you paid US$1,995.00 for. Blair and Bush may be friends but us US traders will tear you apart with your Pristine method.
You wanna speak with me? Send me a PM and I'll call you back on on the phone my money. Or just send a PM to anyone on elite.
I just dont want to see you guys get crooked. Your the only people who shed blood with our boys in the US!
THIS IS MY LAST WARNING TO YOU ON PRISTINE!!! This "newbie" is now going back home across the Atlantic to protect the people who destroyed your language.
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You know what? Pay for the Pristine seminar!!!!
I AM NOW BEGGING YOU TO SIGN UP FOR THE PRISTINE SEMINAR.
OLIVER VELEZ, MIKE DEJOYA AND THE REST OF THE PRISTINE ARE AWESOME!!! I TAKE IT ALL BACK, EVERYTHING I SAID>
THEY'RE THE BEST THING SINCE CHURCHILLL!!!!!!!
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=461265#post461265
SIGN UP NOW!!! SEATING FOR THE PRISTINE SEMINAR IS LIMITED!!!
I AM NOW BEGGING YOU TO SIGN UP FOR THE PRISTINE SEMINAR.
OLIVER VELEZ, MIKE DEJOYA AND THE REST OF THE PRISTINE ARE AWESOME!!! I TAKE IT ALL BACK, EVERYTHING I SAID>
THEY'RE THE BEST THING SINCE CHURCHILLL!!!!!!!
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=461265#post461265
SIGN UP NOW!!! SEATING FOR THE PRISTINE SEMINAR IS LIMITED!!!
Again, I'm going to echo the thoughts of LazyBones. No, we are not the same person, yada yada. I don't even know the man. I do know that he spends a heck of a lot of his own time tracking down these so-called experts and digging into their records. What he has uncovered is quite astonishing (or not if you're already sufficiently jaded about the whole thing). I only wish he was around when I was getting started, I could have saved some money. Luckily, I never gave any of it to Pristine. Even to my rookie eyes, their services seemed very overpriced for the pedestrian products they were pushing.
Once again, go ahead and go to their free seminar. If you have half a brain, you'll see right through the slick marketing and realize that what they are asking you to pay thousands for, you can get for free (or a fraction of the price) reading the classic texts, learning from real traders, and most importantly- trading your own account.
If you've made it this far (interested enough to spend time on an arcane trading message board) then you certainly have the tools already inside of you to formulate a simple trading plan and stick with it. In time, you will refine it and bring it to a level of sophistication where you can actually make a buck (or pound) on a consistent basis. There are no shortcuts. Nothing feels better than achieving success through your own hard work and perseverance.
Again, I have never purchased anything from Pristine. There are no sour grapes or jealousy as far as I'm concerned. What concerns me is when someone achieves monetary success through the use of deception and trickery. That is flat-out wrong, legally and ethically. I know the day will come when karma comes into play and these people will realize their just desserts. That time can't come any sooner as far as I'm concerned.
Uni
Once again, go ahead and go to their free seminar. If you have half a brain, you'll see right through the slick marketing and realize that what they are asking you to pay thousands for, you can get for free (or a fraction of the price) reading the classic texts, learning from real traders, and most importantly- trading your own account.
If you've made it this far (interested enough to spend time on an arcane trading message board) then you certainly have the tools already inside of you to formulate a simple trading plan and stick with it. In time, you will refine it and bring it to a level of sophistication where you can actually make a buck (or pound) on a consistent basis. There are no shortcuts. Nothing feels better than achieving success through your own hard work and perseverance.
Again, I have never purchased anything from Pristine. There are no sour grapes or jealousy as far as I'm concerned. What concerns me is when someone achieves monetary success through the use of deception and trickery. That is flat-out wrong, legally and ethically. I know the day will come when karma comes into play and these people will realize their just desserts. That time can't come any sooner as far as I'm concerned.
Uni
TheBramble
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Lazybones/Uni - your point has been made.
I'm sure anyone researching Pristine on these boards will pick up on your warnings and will do their further research on ET and elsewhere.
I'm sure anyone researching Pristine on these boards will pick up on your warnings and will do their further research on ET and elsewhere.
Uni
I recently posted on this tread that I Have been to both Pristine seminars and it is interesting that you have such an opinion for information that you have never be exposed to. While the basis of technical trading must be the same no matter where it is taught there are many points to Pristine's method that are unique. If you took the time to even read what is offered for free by Pristine on a weekly basis, you could not be saying this. Unless of course you and your associate Lazy have other motives behind your missive. Before voicing such extreme opinions try doing your own research, not blindly following another's.
I recently posted on this tread that I Have been to both Pristine seminars and it is interesting that you have such an opinion for information that you have never be exposed to. While the basis of technical trading must be the same no matter where it is taught there are many points to Pristine's method that are unique. If you took the time to even read what is offered for free by Pristine on a weekly basis, you could not be saying this. Unless of course you and your associate Lazy have other motives behind your missive. Before voicing such extreme opinions try doing your own research, not blindly following another's.
