Power of Atheism

[TheBramble]

just 1 fact from 1400 can be a coincidence BUT not 100's see for youself

Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

OK. I picked one at random.

THE CREATION OF HUMAN BEINGS FROM WATER

Allah created every [living] creature from water. Some of them go on their bellies, some of them on two legs, and some on four. Allah creates whatever He wills. Allah has power over all things. (Qur'an, 24:45)

Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe? (Qur'an, 21:30)

And it is He Who created human beings from water and then gave them relations by blood and marriage. Your Lord is All-Powerful. (Qur'an, 25:54)

I fail to see the 'coincidence' in this one. Sure oyu can read all kinds of allegory into this stuff as I suggested earlier, but as for solid empirical science, there is no relationship between this and what you apparently believe it demonstrates.

 

[dilesh23]

Jungian Interpretation of Religion

The Jungian interpretation of religion views all religious experience as a psychological phenomenon, and regards the personal experience of God as indistinguishable, for scientific purposes, as a communication with one's own unconscious mind.

Carl Jung established a school of psychology called depth psychology, which emphasizes understanding the psyche through dream analysis. Other workers in depth psychology have used other methods with some success, but dream analysis remains the core of depth psychology. Works of art and mythology are interpreted similarly to dreams: a myth is "a dream being experienced by a whole culture."

Inevitably archetypal figures appear in personal dreams which closely resemble mythic figures, which leads to a natural interest in experience of religion as a psychological phenomenon.

Jung emphasized the importance of balance in a healthy mind. He wrote that modern humans rely too heavily on science and logic and would benefit from integrating spirituality and appreciation of the unconscious. Jungian psychology is typically missing from the curriculum of most major universities' psychology departments. Jung's ideas are occasionally explored in humanities departments, particularly in the study of mythography.

Jung's parents were fervent Christian missionaries, and part of Jung's early life was occupied with resolving his personal conflict between his stern upbringing and his his own feelings about religion. This settled in on the "scientific" interpretation of religion, which treats religion as a psychological phenomenon only, and neither affirms nor denies a greater reality.

Although Carl Jung was a theoretical psychologist and practicing clinician, he searched through other subjects, attempting to find a pre-existing myth or mythic system which aptly illustrated his ideas about the human psychology of religion. He began with Gnosticism, but abandoned it early on. Later he studied astrology and then speculative alchemy as a symbolic system. It is not clear from his writings if he ever settled on any one of these systems of symbols.

Carl Jung and his associate G.R.S. Mead worked on trying to understand and explain the Gnostic faith from a psychological standpoint. Jung's analytical psychology in many ways schematically mirrors ancient Gnostic mythology, particularly those of Valentinus and the 'classic' Gnostic doctrine described in most detail in the Apocryphon of John (see gnostic schools).

Jung understands the emergence of the Demiurge out of the original, unified monadic source of the spiritual universe by gradual stages to be analogous to (and a symbolic depiction of) the emergence of the ego from the unconscious.

However, it is uncertain as to whether the similarities between Jung's psychological teachings and those of the gnostics are due to their sharing a "perennial philosophy", or whether Jung was unwittingly influenced by the Gnostics in the formation of his theories.

Jung's own 'gnostic hymn', the Septem Sermones ad Mortuos (Latin: "The Seven Sermons to the Dead"), would tend to imply the latter, but after circulating the manuscript, Jung declined to publish it during his lifetime. Since it is not clear whether Jung was ultimately displeased with the book or whether he merely suppressed it as too controversial, the issue remains contested.

Uncertain too are Jung's belief that the gnostics were aware of and intended psychological meaning or significance within their myths.

On the other hand, it is clear from a comparison of Jung's writings and that of ancient Gnostics, that Jung disagreed with them on the ultimate goal of the individual. Gnostics in ancient times clearly sought a return to a supreme, other-worldly Godhead. In a study of Jung, Robert Segal claimed that the eminent psychologist would have found the psychological interpretation of the goal of ancient Gnosticism (that is, re-unification with the Pleroma, or the unknown God) to be psychically 'dangerous', as being a total identification with the unconscious.

To contend that there is at least some disagreement between Jung and Gnosticism is at least supportable: the Jungian process of individuation involves the addition of unconscious psychic tropes to consciousness in order to achieve a trans-conscious centre to the personality. Jung did not intend this addition to take the form of a complete identification of the Self with the Unconscious.

 

[frugi]

Thank you Senor Gecko, but I am too tired to digest a link and then accurately recreate the connections you have made between it and my naive views, though I have a vague idea. As far as I can tell, the cave represents a second-hand, inferior representation of reality. Well, that's true in a way, e.g our senses with their clever compensations designed just for us (oops did I say 'designed' lol) can only act as interpreters, but how does this allegory tally neatly with my post? Help me please with one of your gems of condensed thought, I've been up since 6am and can't manage even basic legwork. Incidentally, the sudden thought of Albert (rapidly growing in popularity as a term of affection) stood outside it in his boat muttering 'the big boys never intended you to see this' made me smile, for some odd reason.

 

[MrGecko]

how does this allegory tally with my view of god.

what I was trying to suggest is that maybe the idea of God evolved naturally as a solution to the problem of existence, just as we evolved eyes to see and a nose to smell, and isn;t necessarily some hair-brained scheme started off by a minority to control masses of people.

[As per my earlier post, there does exist cases of abuse of religion / faith - far too many IMO - but that does not mean that religion / belief in God would not have developed naturally anyhow]

 

[arabianights]

i hv tiny dick shud do betta things than internet :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[dilesh23]

Home Page

i thought i recognised you from somewhere

 

[shadowninja]

Salut shadow, does this regret apply to his works less concerned with religion, such as Selfish Gene, River out of Eden, Ancestors' Tale etc. as if not you may find he is more inspirational - if not that then at least interesting - when not in full-attack mode? The man excels in his core subject and it would take a wilful degree of stubbornness (?word) not to draw something of benefit from them imho.

Hi

That is fair enough but I am not interested in the other things he discusses; I have plenty of books to be reading on topics that interest me (at present I have over 100 books that I have in my list of books to read) and so I had only looked at his material relevant to my interests.

The curious thing was that as I was typing my post, I did think, "I am sure this isn't his speciality." I think people get taken in by him because he has "Professor" as his title so he must be right. And if he's saying what you already agree with then that makes you right, too, so he must really be right.

 

[dick_dastardly]

Religion breeds intolerance, hatred and bigotism. It separates societies living in the same borders and has caused more wars than any other reason.

Atheism welcomes people from any walk of life without predudice. Absolutely everyone is equal and encourages tolerance of people from difference faiths.

There is only one true knowledge - and that is the knowledge of fact. One who does not deal solely with fact and provable hypothesis cannot be fully enlightened as they cannot be sure of what they believe.

Knowing what you do not know is far more powerful than believing in something that cannot be proven.

/rant over

Hi Hoggums

If the statistics are true then 90% of the worlds population have some sort of spiritual belief.

Until medical science can come up with a solution to mortality ( and I don’t think it ever will ) then the 90% are stuck with their invisible friend and we [atheists] will have to put up with being perceived as just a bunch of Godless, heartless, directionless, evil, uncaring, hedonistic, materialistic, immoral, corrupt, uncultured, emotional retards.

However, I remain optimistic. Thanks to the internet atheists are no longer hostage the geographical location of their birth place and no longer hostage to the religious ideologies they have the misfortune to be born in to. Atheists from all over the world can communicate with each other and unite in to a single group. It’s only just started so hasn’t really got going yet but I'm sure eventually it will.

At the very same time, people of different religions will encounter each other on the internet and have disputes about who’s version of the invisible man is the correct one thus increasing the friction between these groups, you’re seeing this very process unfold right now, here, on this web site.

So at long last, things could be looking up for atheism.


http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell?ob=1

dd

 

[blackcab]

Hi

That is fair enough but I am not interested in the other things he discusses; I have plenty of books to be reading on topics that interest me (at present I have over 100 books that I have in my list of books to read) and so I had only looked at his material relevant to my interests.

The curious thing was that as I was typing my post, I did think, "I am sure this isn't his speciality." I think people get taken in by him because he has "Professor" as his title so he must be right. And if he's saying what you already agree with then that makes you right, too, so he must really be right.

His books on evolution - Selfish Gene, Blind Watchmaker, Climbing Mount Improbable etc. - were stunning (and, for me, life-changing). Whatever you think of his God Delusion phase, I strongly recommend those books as masterpieces of clarity and exposition.

Steve Jones says that he hasn't followed suit in expounding atheism simply because he has no interest in religion at all; he would be as motivated to write a book on the fallacy of creator-worship as he would be to spend time denouncing preference for coffee over tea. (That's my analogy; his, which I forget, was much wittier.)

Something else I've regrettably forgotten was a piece a couple of years ago by someone whose identity I also cannot recall on the inevitably of religious belief in an evolutionary context, to whit that seemingly absurd and pointless religious faith arises as a natural consequence of the emergence of consciousness and increasing societal complexity.

Yet another elucidation on the casuistry of sacerdotal doctrine, rememberance of which - Oh no! I've disappeared up me own ****

 

[oiltanker]

i usually find atheists to be quite intolerant.

basically they have an image that god is an old man in the sky then say how ridiculous. well quite. any reading of theology shows that the divine is greater than any image you can have about it. that is not to say some non atheists also think the divine is an old man in the sky

 

[tar]

I dunno, I reckon most of my trades are coincidences, and I've done more than 1400 r.t.s today.

Also, even according to muslims, mohammaed was convinced by a load of di'jins to write the satanic verses in the koran, so I can't really believe any of it.

Also, I like bacon.

This is not true , Mohmad cannot read or write and he came with a 600 pages ( over 23 years ) of complicated arabic language to a community cares about language and poetry , and after they heard the Quran they r stunned and nobody could come with something like that , this was the challenge . The Quran is a holy book from Allah about what happened and what will happen , it is about the truth, but it is not a science book that contains all the science no , although there is some science facts in it , an arabic man in the desert b4 1400 y cannot read and write cannot come up with it , cannot even imagine it , for example the big bang : God mentioned the big bang in Quran : ( Do not those who disbelieve see that the skies and the earth were { ratk } , but We { fatak } ; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?)

God here mentioned 3 things : 1- ratk : well-closed up mass or elements interwoven together, mixed in each or blended . 2 - fatak : unstitch , tearing apart or destroying the structure of things that are sewn to one another . 3- water : this is true most of our body is water .
This verse is not for the humanity b4 1400 years believe me , it is for this time ...

____

This battle about there is God or there isnt it is from thousands of years , u can read in the Quran the same words that u guys r saying like the invisable friend ... etc .

I am sure 1000% that there is God , go look at the mirror tell me what u will c , do u really think that this magnificent human being came from nothing , if u enter inside the cell u will c a magnificent micro factory , what about the brain , what about the nervous system , u have lungs to take Oxygen from the air and if this Oxygen stopped for few seconds u will die , we r really weak guys then we come and talk bad words about God who made us and the whole universe , really i am shy , i cannot for one second think that there is no God ...

If someday ( i hope not ) one of u r deeply in a trouble and he c death infront of him , he will feel he want to ask for help inside him from someone strong and powerfull , this one is God ...

Anyway between us and the truth ( 1 second or more ) , when we die we will c the truth and we will die at anytime , infact we will die evantually , i give advice only cuz i am here w u guys almost 3 years ...

U like bacon , if u like to drink or u like bacon , this should not stop any of u to believe in God and to make him your lord , cuz these things r sins only , but if u dont make God your lord this is the ultimate sin ...

 

[arabianights]

This is not true , Mohmad cannot read or write and he came with a 600 pages ( over 23 years ) of complicated arabic language to a community cares about language and poetry , and after they heard the Quran they r stunned and nobody could come with something like that , this was the challenge . The Quran is a holy book from Allah about what happened and what will happen , it is about the truth, but it is not a science book that contains all the science no , although there is some science facts in it , an arabic man in the desert b4 1400 y cannot read and write cannot come up with it , cannot even imagine it , for example the big bang : God mentioned the big bang in Quran : ( Do not those who disbelieve see that the skies and the earth were { ratk } , but We { fatak } ; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?)

God here mentioned 3 things : 1- ratk : well-closed up mass or elements interwoven together, mixed in each or blended . 2 - fatak : unstitch , tearing apart or destroying the structure of things that are sewn to one another . 3- water : this is true most of our body is water .
This verse is not for the humanity b4 1400 years believe me , it is for this time ...

____

This battle about there is God or there isnt it is from thousands of years , u can read in the Quran the same words that u guys r saying like the invisable friend ... etc .

I am sure 1000% that there is God , go look at the mirror tell me what u will c , do u really think that this magnificent human being came from nothing , if u enter inside the cell u will c a magnificent micro factory , what about the brain , what about the nervous system , u have lungs to take Oxygen from the air and if this Oxygen stopped for few seconds u will die , we r really weak guys then we come and talk bad words about God who made us and the whole universe , really i am shy , i cannot for one second think that there is no God ...

If someday ( i hope not ) one of u r deeply in a trouble and he c death infront of him , he will feel he want to ask for help inside him from someone strong and powerfull , this one is God ...

Anyway between us and the truth ( 1 second or more ) , when we die we will c the truth and we will die at anytime , infact we will die evantually , i give advice only cuz i am here w u guys almost 3 years ...

U like bacon , if u like to drink or u like bacon , this should not stop any of u to believe in God and to make him your lord , cuz these things r sins only , but if u dont make God your lord this is the ultimate sin ...

tldr

 

[shadowninja]

His books on evolution - Selfish Gene, Blind Watchmaker, Climbing Mount Improbable etc. - were stunning (and, for me, life-changing). Whatever you think of his God Delusion phase, I strongly recommend those books as masterpieces of clarity and exposition.

Hey, thanks for the reply. That's the thing. I'm not interested in evolution just like he isn't interested in grounding and pounding techniques. if he sticks to evolution and I stick to learning how to break people then all will be fine. Not all opinions are valid; for instance, my opinion of evolution lacks any validity because I haven't studied anything to do with it; similarly, I doubt his experiences in the cage are much to write about so I wouldn't rate his opinion on grounding and pounding techniques too highly. Or more relevantly, I am not sure I would highly rate his opinion on the usefulness of stochastics on the five minute timeframe.

 

[temptrader]

Religion breeds intolerance, hatred and bigotism. It separates societies living in the same borders and has caused more wars than any other reason.

No, to a certain extent it actually doesn't. Religion isn't really the problem. The problem is, as it always was, the human condition. My view is that religion is just a manifestation of our insecurity about the world and our place in it. I personally think that a lot of aggression, anger, and EGO go into religious beliefs. There is also a need to feel special and important - which is again rooted in the ego - that makes religion so appealing to the masses.

Atheism welcomes people from any walk of life without predudice. Absolutely everyone is equal and encourages tolerance of people from difference faiths.

again, wrong. There is no "entry" into atheism, like getting through some ritual etc... In fact nobody cares - or rather no "body" or "corporation" or "society of people" care. And where is all this about tolerance of people from different faiths? What's that got to do with atheism? If I say I believe there is no God and someone says otherwise we are going to get into an argument that leads nowhere - both are unfalsifiable positions. If someone decides to be an atheist that their business - no one else's. Nowhere is does it follow - nor imply for that matter - that they are going to be more tolerant and think everyone equal. That's down to character of the individual concerned (and in fact you might find a fair portion of religious people more along these lines). Again, we talk of the human condition - no more.

There is only one true knowledge - and that is the knowledge of fact. One who does not deal solely with fact and provable hypothesis cannot be fully enlightened as they cannot be sure of what they believe.

Knowing what you do not know is far more powerful than believing in something that cannot be proven.

/rant over

Science can only get you so far....so for the rest there is just mystery. And since there is still a lot of mystery, and it being part of the human condition, human beings tend to try to "explain" to make themselves feel better about themselves - when in reality they know not the foggiest what's going on.

The problem's not religion - the problem is the human condition. Always has, always will be. On one end of the spectrum there is: my God exists and I KNOW he exists, since you are all unbelievers you all go to Hell unless you repent and acknowledge his existence. On the other end of the spectrum is: God does NOT exist, therefore you all all talking crap and its best you find better things to do with your lives.

I think religion serves as a medium for humans to hate one another. And if there were no religion we would find other ways to hate each other - because that's what we are like in large groupings. It just might be a biological facet of our species: along with territorial tendencies, status aggressions, sexual aggressions...

His books on evolution - Selfish Gene, Blind Watchmaker, Climbing Mount Improbable etc. - were stunning (and, for me, life-changing). Whatever you think of his God Delusion phase, I strongly recommend those books as masterpieces of clarity and exposition.

Dawkins can only go so far. The reason he is attacked a lot is because he's digging into beliefs of the religious texts, and it's getting too close for comfort for the parties involved. If you are running a business you don't want to lose credibility.

Even if we didn't have Dawkins and we were living in the Dark Ages, the issue of validity of religion would still be the same, and any intelligent person who can reason and think properly (and not let his thoughts be clouded by his own ego and insecurities) would come to the conclusion that it's totally absurd.

Steve Jones says that he hasn't followed suit in expounding atheism simply because he has no interest in religion at all; he would be as motivated to write a book on the fallacy of creator-worship as he would be to spend time denouncing preference for coffee over tea. (That's my analogy; his, which I forget, was much wittier.)

And I would be on a similar view. The notion of "God" is trivially absurd. Makes no sense in the lights of the human existence, but rather the notion gives some meaning to certain individuals who choose to be drawn into such beliefs, and for this, unfortunately, some are willing to give their lives to defend it.

 

[arabianights]

|  |  /\  ~|~|    /~~\  /\~~|~~/\  |\  |
|--| /__\  | |    `--. /__\ | /__\ | \ |
|  |/    \_|_|__  \__//    \|/    \|  \|

 

[mrsoul]

Religion breeds intolerance, hatred and bigotism. It separates societies living in the same borders and has caused more wars than any other reason.

Atheism welcomes people from any walk of life without predudice. Absolutely everyone is equal and encourages tolerance of people from difference faiths.

There is only one true knowledge - and that is the knowledge of fact. One who does not deal solely with fact and provable hypothesis cannot be fully enlightened as they cannot be sure of what they believe.

Knowing what you do not know is far more powerful than believing in something that cannot be proven.

/rant over

If it wasn't for God there would be no atheists.

 

[temptrader]

Pick one single example of a truth uncovered.
You will find, that most of these verses are written in metaphorical terms, or terms that can easily be interpreted in many ways.
To suggest the Koran "knew" about quasars is laughable.

Can every single verse be so interpreted? If so, is there no new knowledge to be gained?
Or, is it that the next great scientific discovery will result in a verse being re-interpreted in the light of new discoveries?
Has the Koran been instrumental in leading a new discovery, or merely retrospectively jiggered to fit?

Exactly!!

If they think they know it all then they can jolly well take the scientists place and do all this "research" and discovery themselves. I ain't stopping them. The reason why they are not doing that is because they don't have a clue...

How easy and pathetically sad to lay claim to something with the benefit of hindsight, with a bit of artistic license thrown in...

 

[dick_dastardly]

Hmmm ?

I think Pat Condell comes across as a little grumpy ( even by his own standards ) in his latest vid.




YouTube - Children of a stupid god



YouTube - patcondell's Channel




dd

 

[blancspa]

I ve heard somwhere that, former Enron boss Jeffrey Skilling likes book Selfish Gene.

 

[MrGecko]

Hmmm ?

I think Pat Condell comes across as a little grumpy ( even by his own standards ) in his latest vid.

dd

This man is a fundamentalist and a moron.