Payment for Points, New way to pay for Systems

[SuddenDeath]

I have an idea which can revolutionize trading systems and eliminate fraud, Why don’t system sellers charge for points so , for example a system says they charge £10/200pts on FTSE100 once they have sent you signals with a net gain for 200pts you are charged £10, this can be done via mobiles/text messages,

 

[rols]

I have an idea which can revolutionize trading systems and eliminate fraud, Why don’t system sellers charge for points so , for example a system says they charge £10/200pts on FTSE100 once they have sent you signals with a net gain for 200pts you are charged £10, this can be done via mobiles/text messages,

Why are you telling everyone?

 

[Pat494]

How about buying a system where you promise ( with backup from your broker ) to pay them a percentage of your winning profits after 6 months. No charge if youre underwater ? A deposit maybe ?

 

[SuddenDeath]

Most people are unhappy with their spread-bet companies, why don’t we start our own spread bet company a sort of mutual society of traders, run by and for the benefit of traders, Like the building societies, their mortgages are always cheaper and they give you good savings rate too.

Why dont we form our own spreadbet company


The Low Bid
"It is unwise to pay too much,but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you may lose a little money...thats all. When you pay too little,you sometimes lose everything because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the things it was bought to do"
The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting alot...it cannot be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder it is as well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that you will have enough to pay for the something better.
There is hardly anything in the world that some men cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper,and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.

JOHN RUSKIN 1819 - 1900

 

[Mathemagician]

This type of arrangement already commonly exists. Those of us who work this way are called Commodity Trading Advisors.

jj

 

[SuddenDeath]

Mathemagician,(post #5) How much do you charge for 200pts on the FTSE100 thanks.

 

[Mathemagician]

The customary arrangement with a CTA is a 2% annual management fee and a 20% incentive fee. Some clients prefer a lower (or no) management fee in exchange for a higher incentive fee, though not all CTAs are willing to do this.

jj

 

[FXiGoR]

Maybe it is intersting to hear the voice from someone who is standing on the other side.

I fully understand the reason of your postings.
1)Many vendors make very profitable claims and promise you heaven. They make you believe that you will earn tons of money...etc..etc..
Once YOU start with them, you get no way near what they claim.
2)Important is also that they hide themself behinde a claim on their sites or whatever that they use to introduce themself or to advert that: results in the past are no garantee for results in the future. This is of course a very cheap excuse.

I am a vendor myself so I speak as fully experienced.
So I would like to give a little bit more explenation on these 2 important facts.
About the 1st fact, I give a system and indicators and support and explain people when they join that there is no room for error or not sticking to the system. That they need to stick to the signals 110%. There is no room for interpretation nore for giving your own opinion. No excuse for beeing late or tomorrow can't make it because you need to do something else.
No way that you can jump out of a trade because YOU feel you have enough profit on that position. No way that you can say or think: I'm not going to take in that singnal because today that system triggered already 3 false trades..etc..etc...

Every week and every month I publish my results according the results we make according each signal that was given by the system.
Each month we end with amazing results. If I ask the people what their results are the majority come no way near to the results that the system made. Reason, no discipline to stick 110% to the signals that were generated.
Each month I have new people who join me each month I have people that quit because they lost a lot of money where the system made a lot of money.
I feel that they are frustrated because they have the feeling that they joined me 50% of the time so they should have 50% of the profit.
It does not work like that. For all the same they missed out on 4-5 importand trading days who turned an overall monthly loss to an overall monthly profit.
So bottom line to this fact, I as a vendor did what was expected from me (giving a system that is making a profit at the end of the month) but they did not what was expected from them. Having the nescessary discipline to stick 110% to the system.

About the 2nd fact, I give people a garantee. I give the garantee if the system does not make a minimum amount of ticks or pips ( that normally traded will cover more then their monthly subscription), they can join next month for free. And if nescessary the next month and the next....(wich never happend).
I find this rule of garantee only logic. If I make cliams that I can help people but I charge for that then I feel it is my obligation as a vendor to realy help people.
I can only say to a vendor If you did not help someone do not ask any money for furder help.
As said it is to easy to hide away behind the claim that profits in the past are no garantee for profits in the future.

So I would say, look for someone that gives you some sort of a garantee in case he performed bad. And look for a vendor where you can read objective claims from people who are 'clients' from that vendor. Many people fall for very nice web sites that look very professional. But on these sites the vendors can write what ever they want. No one that can complain. On the contrary they post rediculous testimonials of so called all happy people.

One last remark is that in the 12 years that I am around I saw more people that wanted to be fooled then people who had realistic expectations about the results of trading.

friendly regards....iGoR

 

[nine]

If anyone hasn't got this yet I hate spamming vendors and scamming vendors. Thats the only reason I volunteered to be a mod.

But I'd support Igor's post.

There is a huge variation between system performance and what people get out of it. I was first told this by a system vendor in the US but also observed it with a guy who sold a system locally (because like many traders he felt he was becoming a hermit so decided to sell as system+training). and a doctor friend of mine bought it; and then failed to trade it. It was easy. It was automatic. It told him when to trade but after a couple of trades he stopped. Couldn't. So where would the vendors income have gone after the investment in training and the risk of letting someone have his system software?

I like the idea of guaranteeing performance on a live portfolio and then making broker statements available.

 

[westernforce]

What iGoR posted above pretty much sums up why people in general fail at trading. Lack of discipline.

 

[Mathemagician]

If anyone hasn't got this yet I hate spamming vendors and scamming vendors. Thats the only reason I volunteered to be a mod.

But I'd support Igor's post.

There is a huge variation between system performance and what people get out of it. I was first told this by a system vendor in the US but also observed it with a guy who sold a system locally (because like many traders he felt he was becoming a hermit so decided to sell as system+training). and a doctor friend of mine bought it; and then failed to trade it. It was easy. It was automatic. It told him when to trade but after a couple of trades he stopped. Couldn't. So where would the vendors income have gone after the investment in training and the risk of letting someone have his system software?

I like the idea of guaranteeing performance on a live portfolio and then making broker statements available.

But, didn't I hear somewhere that there is no element of psychology in system trading? :cheesy:

In all seriousness, this issue is so serious that I insist on my system leasing clients allowing the broker to execute the system for them. Clients have this uncanny ability to create their own bad experiences then blame them on the system developer.

jj

 

[rols]

I have an idea which can revolutionize trading systems and eliminate fraud, Why don’t system sellers charge for points so , for example a system says they charge £10/200pts on FTSE100 once they have sent you signals with a net gain for 200pts you are charged £10, this can be done via mobiles/text messages,

Trade2Win (T2W) is the leading community website and portal for active traders seeking to profit from stocks, futures, options and forex.

May I suggest eBay?

 

[nine]

Trade2Win (T2W) is the leading community website and portal for active traders seeking to profit from stocks, futures, options and forex.

And deliberately misquoted: "Wantonly pasting stuff from the site without thinking about it (this is directed at you rl) and presenting this as 'any sort of proof' is IMO weak and flimsy and will get from me the respect it deserves."

But more seriously, even if T2W is is the leading community for one type of trader, can it not be a useful community for other types?

 

[dcraig1]

I have an idea which can revolutionize trading systems and eliminate fraud, Why don’t system sellers charge for points so , for example a system says they charge £10/200pts on FTSE100 once they have sent you signals with a net gain for 200pts you are charged £10, this can be done via mobiles/text messages,

I doubt if this is a new idea. Some of the systems on Collective2 are billed per profitable trade or something along those lines.

 

[SuddenDeath]

Why don’t System vendors enter a Trade2Win share competition and each month it would be clear which systems perform best, this is transparency, this is open and fair competition, everyone would win expect those who make claims that can’t be substantiated. This will shake out the wheat from the chaff.

And we could see systems sellers saying, our system finished in the top 5 for four months in a row.

Isnt there any recognised trade body which vets these systems ? CFTC or NFA ?

Also If i buy a £5 book on Amazon I can see the feedback of the buyer,

 

[nine]

Don't trust Amazon's reviews too much. A certain internet marketer who rides on the coat-tails of the turtles had any critical reviews removed. I believe the more sales orientated authors both arrange reviews and get the more critical reviews removed.

 

[Pat494]

Why don’t System vendors enter a Trade2Win share competition and each month it would be clear which systems perform best, this is transparency, this is open and fair competition, everyone would win expect those who make claims that can’t be substantiated. This will shake out the wheat from the chaff.

And we could see systems sellers saying, our system finished in the top 5 for four months in a row.

Isnt there any recognised trade body which vets these systems ? CFTC or NFA ?

Yes Sir thats the way to go imho

 

[Mathemagician]

Isnt there any recognised trade body which vets these systems ? CFTC or NFA ?

They do not vet trading systems, and most vendors refuse to register with them (wonder why?) even though it's required of anyone doing business in the U.S.

jj

 

[Hoggums]

I've said this loads of times already - but payment for points could easily be abused by people scaling in/out trades and taking the maximum profitable distance between all entries/exits - or even worse adding up the points from each individual scale out.

Points is only half the equation - money management is just as important - and counting pips takes no account of this whatsoever.

 

[SuddenDeath]

The vendor would send you message to buy at 6000, then few days later would say sell at 6350, he has given you 350pts, you pay him the agreed tariif, 50p/point or any figure u can think off, it doesnt matter what you do or what size you trade, he gives u a trade with 350 points and is paid for that information, if, I came in here and posted over a month 10 good trades on the Dow which made a total of 1000pts, would people think this is valuable ? this method of operating is great for genuine system sellers who have a decent system. no risk for the person buying the points .

Joke............

A woman gets on a bus with her baby. The bus driver says: “That's the ugliest baby that I've ever seen. Ugh!” The woman goes to the rear of the bus and sits down, fuming. She says to a man next to her: “The driver just insulted me!”

The man says: “You go right up there and tell him off – go ahead, I'll hold your monkey for you.”