Opening GAPS,Stocks, & ' If I were an MM'

DionysusToast

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It seems there is some mystique around an opening GAP and how such a thing gets created.

There has been mention of different 'types' of GAPs - professional and amateur and how they can be detected by volume.

On the NYSE you have Floor Specialists. On the NASDAQ, there is no floor, it's a computer network. In this case you have Market Makers. The Market Makers & Specialists are in a very privileged position. They are arguably the best day traders on the planet. They do provide a very important service. That is to buy when nobody else is buying and sell when nobody else is selling. We should be very happy that they provide this service and appreciate their risks in doing this.Of course, there are benefits to being an MM, they don't do this for charity.

Let's consider a gap down. The price at which a stock opens cannot be set by any one specific individual/orgnisation. A stock cannot gap down from $40 to $37 if you or I have a bid at $39. The highest bid at the open will be the lowest price the stock can gap down to. It doesn't matter who's bid it is - you, me, Goldman Sachs, UBS, Deutsche Bank - whoever has the highest bid at the open will have set the lowest possible open price.

Now - let's say a company has terrible earnings, lowers guidance and announces suspension of dividends and there appears to be a lot of selling pressure lined up at the open with no sight of any buyers. In this case, the MM needs to be buyer of last resort and absorb all of the selling. Let's say this was you. Let's say you had to buy all shares that were being thrown at you and the close of yesterday was $40. What would you offer all these people for their shares ? Would you offer $41 ? Of course not. You would probably attempt to set a price that did the following :

1 - Put people off selling their shares
2 - Attracted bargain hunters to buy shares
3 - Gave you a reasonable chance of selling the shares at a higher price later on

You also have to set a 'reasonable' price, so you can't just offer .01 cents for the shares and hope no-one takes you up on it.

Now - what qty does the MM put alongside their bid on that initial offer ? What would you do ? Would you offer 1000 lots at that price, so that someone can immediately dump 100,000 shares on you ? Or would you just offer 1 lot to give you the chance to move your bid down if there was massive selling ?

More than likely - the professional thing to do would be to bid well below the close (say $37) and at small quantity because there is no sense in buying lots of lots.

Let's consider another scenario. Let's consider the same open but where a single retail trader has a bid at $39.50. The MM can still see that there is much more size on the ask. He'll ignore the fact that someone has a bid at $39.50 and more than likely do exactly the same thing. He'll bid $37 and 1 lot. In this case, the open will be $39.50 but the stock will immediately moved down to $37.

In both scenarios, the initial order was for 1 lot. The opening price was different and the gap size was different. After that first trade though - you have the same market.

Another interesting thing you'll see (and I AM jumping to conclusions here) is the "1 lot pre-market trade". That's when just 100 shares go through during the pre-market, effectively changing the last price. My presumption when I see this, is that this is probably the MM selling himself some shares through 2 different ECNs to set the price. I could be wrong about this though.
 
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If you want the opening price on NYSE you can submit a MOO (Market on Open) order. I don't know if there are any restrictions on size, but to my knowledge the specialist is obliged to honour any such orders. It follows that they have got to have their pricing reasonably right at the open, or they could take a very nasty hit. They can't just offer or bid a small size and test the water.

There are also limit on open, market on close and limit on close order types.
 
i hate to **** on your parade but that is not how gaps happen lol. gaps are created from people trading pre market on ARCA, NASDAQ, DIRECTEDGE, BATS etc etc, just need to look there what any stock is trading at before the open...

obvisouly most amature investors dont have access to these so to them it just looks like a gap (what you are describing)
 
i hate to **** on your parade but that is not how gaps happen lol. gaps are created from people trading pre market on ARCA, NASDAQ, DIRECTEDGE, BATS etc etc, just need to look there what any stock is trading at before the open...

obvisouly most amature investors dont have access to these so to them it just looks like a gap (what you are describing)

It is no problem at all to get premarket prices - eg thru IB. I think you are grossly simplifying matters. There are any number of reasons for gaps, some specific to the stock, some due to more general economic economic or political news, some due to general market sentiment in the European and before them the Asian markets.
 
yeh but the gaps are caused by trading in dark pools like the ones i have listed..if a stock sells off pre market in the other exchanges it will show as a gap on the NYSE at 9:30. (much like futures trading before the bell rings)

im not grossly simplifying things, because they are simple.

tbh most people on this forum woudlnt even know what those exchanges are
 
i hate to **** on your parade but that is not how gaps happen lol. gaps are created from people trading pre market on ARCA, NASDAQ, DIRECTEDGE, BATS etc etc, just need to look there what any stock is trading at before the open...

obvisouly most amature investors dont have access to these so to them it just looks like a gap (what you are describing)

I never at any point discounted pre-market action. Sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't any pre-market action. As I mentioned - sometimes there is 1 just 1 lot traded in the pre-market. I would say that roughly 50% of the shares I have on my screen for the open have pre-market trades and that includes stocks that have earnings announcements that morning or the prior evening.

Still, the opening price on a gap down is the best bid at the open, regardless of the amount of pre-market action.

Of course, the pre-market can flow into the regular session and this does not detract from my explanation.
 
wrong! prices from arca and nasdaq roll into there big brother exchanges. the price pre market IS the price at the open.
 
And here we see varying amounts of pre-market action...

Gap up with no pre-market action on MHWK, gap down with pre-market action on AIG. No gap with very light pre market action on WLP and finally a gap up on an NASDAQ as opposed to a NYSE stock.

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what data feeds you have on though?

you have to remember thought 90% of this forum wont ever see the pre market action or know how or where, they just see a gap on there spread betting account!
 
wrong! prices from arca and nasdaq roll into there big brother exchanges. the price pre market IS the price at the open.

The open price is the price of the first trade of the regular session - which will either be the inside bid or inside ask at that time.

The prices on the chart represent trades at the inside bid or ask. No prices are carried from anywhere to start the day. The buyers and sellers don't dissapear though, so if the action is there pre-market, the players will more than likely be there through the open, so their bids and asks will set be the best for the first trade of the regular session.

In the case of MHK open, the best ask was just under $49, no-one was prepared to sell for less. The first buyer came up and graciously accepted that ask price. There was no action in the pre-market.
 
what data feeds you have on though?

you have to remember thought 90% of this forum wont ever see the pre market action or know how or where, they just see a gap on there spread betting account!

I think we kind of agree and I think your points are as valid as mine.

We need to understand the pre-market, after hours market, when an MM/specialist will come in, what the 'markets' are - be they 'virtual' or physical.

I would certainly agree that an SB account would not give you the reference points to make sense of this data.

My presumption was that most would be looking at the real data and not something from an SB account though.
 
here is what actually happened in AIG

what happend 2 ur gap? ;)
 

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The open price is the price of the first trade of the regular session - which will either be the inside bid or inside ask at that time.

The opening price is "special". It's actually not about inside bid or ask. Note the key phrase in the following: The match price is the price that maximizes the volume that can be executed


Market Order Auction

The Market Order Auction serves as a bridge between the Opening Session and the Core Trading Session. The execution of the Market Order Auction is the first trade of the Core Trading Session.

Limit orders (eligible for either the Opening Session and/or Core Trading Session), market orders and auction-only limit orders will participate in the auction. With the exception of limit orders that are eligible for the Opening Session, orders that participate in the Market Order Auction cannot be canceled between 9:29 a.m. ET and the conclusion of the Market Order Auction. This restriction does not apply to Opening Session-eligible limit orders, because these orders will be accessible in NYSE Arca during continuous trading between 9:29 a.m. and 9:30 a.m. ET. Core Trading Session-only limit orders, however, cannot be cancelled between 9:29 a.m. and 9:30 a.m.

Market orders and auction-only limit orders that would participate on the same side as a market order imbalance cannot be entered into the Market Order Auction between 9:29 a.m. ET and the conclusion of the auction. For example, if the aggregate volume of market sell orders in the Market Order Auction is 30,000, and the aggregate volume of buy orders (including market and limit orders) is 25,000 shares, a market order imbalance on the sell side exists — so NYSE Arca will not accept market or auction-only limit orders to sell between 9:29 a.m. ET and the conclusion of the Market Order Auction. As with the Opening Auction, NYSE Arca will calculate and continually disseminate the indicative match price, the indicative match volume and the auction imbalance. At 9:30 a.m. ET, the Market Order Auction will execute at a single price and all unexecuted orders will be released into the Core Trading Session.

The match price is the price that maximizes the volume that can be executed. The Market Order Auction will use the match price closest to the closing price of the previous trading day (based on normal market hours) if more than one indicative match price is valid. Imbalances and indicative match prices in the Market Order Auction reflect market orders only. In the following examples, the limit orders are "auction only" limit orders




http://www.nyse.com/equities/nysearcaequities/1157623605117.html

There is an "opening cross" on NASDAQ too, though I can't remember the details. Should be easy to lookup.
 
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as you will see here, all the exchanges i can route orders threw pre market which im guessing you dont have seeing your charts arnt showing the real story pre market. obviously im smaller shares that dont trade much in the dark pools your original post is correct, how ever its not really the case anymore as i have shown. and no offense but i dont think you should be writing articles for other people to learn from which arnt entirely accurate (or paint the whole picture). i could have been trading AIG while your screen was blank and you thought there was a gap.
 

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oh and p.s ive enevr bought or sold a share in my life! knowledge is power though my friend..
 
It might be terribly old fashioned TA, but one of the most interesting aspects of gaps is their support and resistance properties. Look at enough stock charts and this will hit you in the face like slap from a dead mullet. This in itself should be a marker that there is indeed something important about the opening price.
 

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here is what actually happened in AIG

what happend 2 ur gap? ;)

Well - if you are going to be pedantic...

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Now - there are PLENTY of stocks that have no action outside of market hours. There are plenty of stocks that have gaps DURING market hours. If you are suggesting that price rolls gradually from the close price to the next open price, that is not the case. As can be seen above.
 

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as you will see here, all the exchanges i can route orders threw pre market which im guessing you dont have seeing your charts arnt showing the real story pre market. obviously im smaller shares that dont trade much in the dark pools your original post is correct, how ever its not really the case anymore as i have shown. and no offense but i dont think you should be writing articles for other people to learn from which arnt entirely accurate (or paint the whole picture). i could have been trading AIG while your screen was blank and you thought there was a gap.

Actually, our charts only differ in that my charts are set up to show 8:00 am onwards. In fact, we are both using the same software ! Tradestation, right ?

I dont trade the pre-market but I do watch it for stocks I may trade after the open. The trades from 8am onwards are all that matters in this respect.

It would be interesting to see what you make of this one:

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Is there no gap here, either ?

The exchanges you mentioned are not dark pools by the way. They are just plain old ECNs. There is a big difference.
 

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Hi guys,
Thanks for starting this thread. I am not sure how the US exchanges work so cant offer any clarity there, but....
London LSE works on an "uncrossing" price and auction.
Members of the exchange see the order book and there will be an "uncrossing" price where the highest bids match off the lowest offers. And this is where the market will open for this share. Once the LSE has uncrossed, chix, bats and the others open for business at this price, give or take a tick. So members of the exchange can get long at the uncrossing price by putting their order above the uncrossing price on the order book (or get short on the uncrossing by putting their offer below the uncrossing price). There is nothing fancy about this uncrossing price, it is likely to be different from yesterdays close because we have had a full asian session and news items to impact where people now want to buy / sell their stock. You can put your bid anywhere on the order book, as long as it is not more than 10% away from the last auction (uncrossing price), as there would need to be another auction. (we all know that LSE stocks go into an auction every 10% move from last auction price? right?)

And that's it. Obviously stocks open up with gaps sometimes. Obviously some represent mispricing opportunities, others not.

But it isnt complicated and it isnt magical.

That's London. I am sure it is on the web somewhere.




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Regarding market makers, I dont think they have that much clout. They probably have a fair bit of business to get done but they really cant impact the big stocks that much as funds and other players have a lot of clout too. You do see them messing about on smaller stocks but generally there is nothing weird going on. Just normal action, and if they want to sell stuff at prices, like most people, they know how to get the price there and get their business done.

Maybe if someone knows a MM we can actually get the low down ?



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