My trouble with controlling risk...

Profitaker said:
I must disagree. Risk is a function of time and volatility - nothing else. "Noise levels" and "psychological factors" are in the mind of the beholder.


Indeed psychological factors are in the mind of the trader, but they are the parts which are creating the problem in the thread starter and thus creating the risk and the consequent loss.
Risk, in my view, is both subjective and objective in trainee traders. Once the subjective problems are eradicated/conquered, then risk becomes very largely, but not entirely, quantifiable as you imply.
Richard.
 
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It's been eight months since I last updated this thread. I had hoped to return with encouraging news, but that's simply not the reality which I created for myself. In some respects, my trading has gotten much better than when I last visited:

I hold onto my winners longer;

I have a solid understanding of the market dynamics for the products I trade, and I find my instincts about market direction and S/R levels are very often correct, even if I sometimes lack the stones to take a position in line with my instincts;

I am better at avoiding high-risk, low-opportunity trades; and

My ability to read price action and understand it within a larger supply/demand context is better, resulting in more efficient entries and exits.​

In spite of all of these improvements, I still suffer greatly from my unwillingness to accept and deal with losing trades. To no avail I continually try to remind myself that…

"I can't be hurt significantly if I never lose more than X ticks per contract."

"My instincts are usually correct, and I should exit immediately when they tell me that the market is going to move against my position."

"If I don't like a position I can always exit, re-assess, and re-enter."

"I will never notice a $125 loss at the end of the day -- $1000+ losses hurt."​

But in the end, I consistently let single trades hurt me significantly and I hold onto trades which my instincts scream to dump. As I tend to enter the market at very fluid areas, my trades rarely sit still -- they typically move rapidly for or against me. I have had some success in reversing trades which are not working, but I find that the mindset which keeps me in losing trades thwarts my reversals. Although my intention to reverse would nearly always be correct, I'm often left trying for an extra tick or two and miss my opportunity to reverse altogether -- right is right and wrong is wrong, so why do I let myself care about a tick or two?

I cannot make a sensible accounting to myself as to why I allow this behavior to continue. At one point I had concluded that I don't need to understand the basis of this problem overcome it, but instead I simply need to deal with it -- now I'm not so sure. I think that understanding my psychological motivation might be helpful. There is clearly some need that is attempting to be met by holding these trades. I am always left very unhappy when I damage my account, trading week, and emotional well being by holding these self-destructive trades. My discipline is good in other ways: I don't chase trades, I wait for my set ups, I avoid impulsive trades. It's this one particular area that kills me.

I always know when I'm screwed on a trade, and typically within a few ticks of entry -- it's an absolute mystery to me why I won't deal with them. Clearly, the possibility of being made whole by the market coming back is enticing me to keep the trade open. It must be that I fear missing those long odds of a crap trade turning around to even or positive. Certainly that happens from time to time, but I don't want to stake my success on that outside possibility -- I want to stick to the short odds, the likelihood of which my instinct reliably warns me before the fact. Apart from basic human nature, why do I go with the long odds? Why do I ignore the voice of instinct that I know is correct 9 times out of 10? Why can't I be happy with small losses? These seem like basic questions, but there is a deeper pathology that is causing problems. Greed is an easy answer (and I know I succumb to greed more easily than I do fear), but knowing greed is the driver doesn't help me.

What I find most frustrating is that I have the ability to consistently generate profits sufficient to meet my income expectations, but continually give my money back to the market like a fool. Attached is a summary of my trading results for the past six months. The dollar values of the gains and losses are both understated slightly by the fact that P&L on Euro denominated contracts are reported as dollars -- the Total Net Profit should be slightly lower (i.e., more negative) because of the currency issue (approximately $500). Please note that except for the top-line numbers, NinjaTrader reports all trade analysis results at the contract level (i.e., a single 5-lot losing trade will show up as 5 consecutive losing trades -- average losing trade of X dollars will be X dollars per single contract). Also, all of these results are after commissions.

Looking at these results, the problem is crystal clear -- the average winning trade is $87.39 and the average losing trade is -$306.83. A loser to winner ratio of 3.5:1 is crazy! I could meet or exceed my current trading goals starting tomorrow if I would simply deal with this problem once and for all. Interestingly enough, my behavior doesn't change based on the trade size I have on (although I have cut back to trading a one-lot in recent months to reduce the carnage). Also interesting (to me) is that my behavior is the same whether it's real or simulated trading (all the results are for real trading). I use sim trading for practicing reversals or other execution strategies.

I truly feel like I'm at the end of my rope, yet I know that I'm a skilled trader who is just inches from consistent success -- but those inches seem like a mile in this case. After each day when I have lost a bundle through stupidity and stubbornness, I tell myself that I will simply not let it happen again. Yet 3 or 4 days later I will repeat the folly. Anyway, I have babbled enough, and I truly appreciate your patience if you're still reading. In the end I must fix this problem or stop trading -- that I know.

Thank you.
 

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Here's a thought do you have any hobbies outside of the markets?

I read a study several years ago that traders who partook in regular "exciting" activities outside the markets showed less of a likelihood to display unexplainable self sabotage trades. The conclusion was that many traders crave excitement.
Trading well is a pretty unexciting venture, enjoyable yes but not exciting. You accept the risk with neutral expectancy on that trade, but a +ve expectancy over time. If you execute your plan/system flawlessly there's not really that much excitement.

So the mind goes into self sabotage. Craving excitement. It remembers when you didn't execute your stop as you should and the immediate pulse of adrenalin you got when you pressed that cancel button. Anything could happen now, you could win big, you could lose big, the heart is pumping you're flying by the seat of your pants.......... The body is getting it's excitement fix. Your conscious mind is screaming this is wrong, I know I shouldn't be doing this, close the trade, but the unconscious mind's craving for excitement is greater so you stick with it until the pain just becomes too much, or you finally snap out of it.

The solution? get an exciting hobby to give your body that excitement so it doesn't secretly try to achieve it from the markets. Your subconscious wont see the markets as it's form of excitement as it gets it's fix from the basketball you played earlier, or the flying lesson you took at the weekend.

maybe worth a try
 
Well, after that desperate post of two weeks ago you will be surprised to hear that I have pretty much solved my problem! I finally decided to try turning off my order book -- I have noticed in the past that I get mesmerized by the price action. I've considered it for a long time, but thought that I couldn't effectively trade without it. My trading platform has trading directly from the chart. It wasn't such a big deal to switch, and what I realized is that every burst of energy in my favor that I saw in the book was cutting right into my emotional center and feeding my hope for those failed trades. I still believe I can glean useful information from reading the order book, but the net result isn't worth it.

Keeping my attention focused on the chart and away from the order book (and even away from the level-1 bid/ask) has made a huge difference. For the past seven trading days, my average winners have increased in size by 60 percent, my losers have decreased by 20 percent, and my win percentage has stayed roughly the same (around 75 percent). More importantly, I feel less stressed, I'm enjoying trading more, and I'm not worrying about getting that extra tick when I'm getting in and getting out (most expensive ticks ever). Also, instead of watching multiple tickframe charts for each product, I'm watching just one slightly longer tickframe chart for each one (that goes back in part to options' early suggestion -- http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psychology/24059-my-trouble-controlling-risk.html#post317372).

I knew it was something simple that was escaping me -- cutting off that hope tap has made a huge difference. I am going to make sure this demon is truly dead before I dial up the size, but I'm looking forward to performing much closer to my potential going forward.

Sincere and heartfelt thanks to everyone who provided help and encouragement.


Regards,

RT
 
For the past seven trading days, my average winners have increased in size by 60 percent, my losers have decreased by 20 percent, and my win percentage has stayed roughly the same (around 75 percent).

I think I was tired last evening when I made that post, because somehow I got my numbers mixed up when I was posting those percentages. My average winning trade has actually increased 240 percent (from $87 to $209).

Thanks again!


Regards,

RT
 
Nice one RT. And I think the more you immerse into the chart the more you become it. You'll end up forgetting yourself (not worrying because you'll forget you exist) soon enough and just trade. Just trade the chart.

All the best.
 
RT ,

You won't beleive this but I have had exactly the same problem as you for the last year and half in trading. And I cannot thank Trade2win.com enough for being around.I have been looking for answers for the last 6 months to self sabotage on those single trades and for a moment I thought lets' check trade2win, and bingo here is the answer. The more I reflect back on my worst trades it's the mesmerisation of price action or the spreadbet bias that has killed me and the energy inside me has been driven out. I hadn't visited this sight since years ago glad I have now.Thanks again RT for sharing such a valid issue of which has been exactly the same for me.
 
I really want to appreciate this thread. Makes me wonder if you guys can shed some light on selling.

I think my problem isn't in pulling the trigger. it's in knowing when to sell. I don't really have a predetermined sell point or stop loss point. I just have a rule that i won't allow myself to lose more than a certain amount. The problem arises when i'm right and my trade went in the direction that I hoped... Where do you normally take profit? Do you guys carry trade overnight? i know some books advocate not to do that because of unexpected circumstances the next day. Contrary to this belief is that the teaching of letting profit run and cutting losers short.

If say i was to trade ABC index at $750. Where each tick is equal to $10 profit, how do you determine where to get out? I think this game is difficult because we don't know where to sell. the hardest part of the game is in not knowing where to sell.
You don't sell when you're winning and you don't sell when you're losing.

Can some experience trader please shed some light? Any advice would be greatly appreicated.
 
To shed light, first must we see it ?

I really want to appreciate this thread. Makes me wonder if you guys can shed some light on selling.

I think my problem isn't in pulling the trigger. it's in knowing when to sell. I don't really have a predetermined sell point or stop loss point. I just have a rule that i won't allow myself to lose more than a certain amount. The problem arises when i'm right and my trade went in the direction that I hoped... Where do you normally take profit? Do you guys carry trade overnight? i know some books advocate not to do that because of unexpected circumstances the next day. Contrary to this belief is that the teaching of letting profit run and cutting losers short.

If say i was to trade ABC index at $750. Where each tick is equal to $10 profit, how do you determine where to get out? I think this game is difficult because we don't know where to sell. the hardest part of the game is in not knowing where to sell.
You don't sell when you're winning and you don't sell when you're losing.

Can some experience trader please shed some light? Any advice would be greatly appreicated.

Thats subjective mate. Some people will exit for x points.target % of ATR , or maybe exit on thrust at S/R . Some will see demand/supply coming in at a level and react(trade) to that. Some people will think OK The trend(price/intent) is changed I need to position to go with the trend then monitor it until this.. Ok the trend is changed I need to position with the trend. They dont care they take what the market gives same reason that gets them in a trade is the one that takes them out or to reverse.. Play the markets hand. (The Art of Trading (types),total immersion,dedication)

Subjective each of us needs/should hand and glove it for ourselves. Does that come down to an individuals personality or their mood being projected ? hmmm if/ when you can see all types of exit's as a choice , until then people wont likely know until they can see the choice, then they could pick n choose exit's for their plan?

Maybe ask yourself would I like the market to take me in and out go with flow or I do/nt care I just what to execute my setup and grind some cash out of this business? what is it to you ?

Good question you put forward.....

a few things to start to consider over the next year or so maybe.

Do I think the market is just random ?

Do I think an order exists?

Supply and demand what do they look like and what does it mean ?

Can I detect trends?

Now can I detect trends in Realtime?

Pirates of the Caribean.. look at them thieving gits.. not staring Johnny Depp.

What makes a good trade?

What makes a bad trade?

Whats my plan?

etc.. etc...


good luck chief
 
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I've had some follow-up thoughts on the motivation for my bad behavior...

I understand now that my basic fear has been that I will exit a position and miss the opportunity to profit. It seems remarkably simple to me now that I say it aloud, but previously I wasn't able to see it. Even when I knew I was on the wrong side of the odds, the chance of making those long odds was just too enticing. That why in my losing positions (i.e., trades I knew were losers) I chose to see hope in the small retracements, rather than opportunities to exit.

It is just a simple twist on the classic greed/fear problem, and it may seem like a obvious thing to some of you. However, it certainly wasn't obvious to me when I was trying to trade from underneath it. The burden of a losing trade is one I can choose not to carry. There might be that rare turd which turns into a diamond, but the short odds are it will stay a turd -- I'm happier leaving it behind.

Thanks again.


Regards,

RT
 
I really want to appreciate this thread. Makes me wonder if you guys can shed some light on selling.

I think my problem isn't in pulling the trigger. it's in knowing when to sell. I don't really have a predetermined sell point or stop loss point. I just have a rule that i won't allow myself to lose more than a certain amount. The problem arises when i'm right and my trade went in the direction that I hoped... Where do you normally take profit? Do you guys carry trade overnight? i know some books advocate not to do that because of unexpected circumstances the next day. Contrary to this belief is that the teaching of letting profit run and cutting losers short.

If say i was to trade ABC index at $750. Where each tick is equal to $10 profit, how do you determine where to get out? I think this game is difficult because we don't know where to sell. the hardest part of the game is in not knowing where to sell.
You don't sell when you're winning and you don't sell when you're losing.

Can some experience trader please shed some light? Any advice would be greatly appreicated.


I'm not an experienced trader but my system I'm still cultivating is to use Moving Average & Price crossovers.

If you are on a winning trade change the MA numbers to fit the best number for resistance where the trade has turned in your favour. When that MA line is breached by the price with a 3-5% error margin close your position.

Try it for a while and see how it serves you.

Secondly, increasingly in what ever period you trade I'm finding Pivot points R1, R2 and S1 & S2 to be major areas of support or resistance where price turns.

Good luck.
 
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