Metastock 9

I have checked your comments about the price securities being in the region of 25 - 100 in P & F Watchlist Maker....I have found that under filter you can specify the range to suit..I have changed it to 1 to 2000 and it seems to run fine....

Also in P & F pattern Search the columns are editable giving one - I hope - chance to tweak the settings...I have yet to try it.....Hopefully it gives a writer facility to tweak the formulae to suit...

Overall it's a start in right direction....the feedbacks will be there and I am sure will be taken on board...I have written to them many times about P & F issues so it is good to see that was taken on board...

all the best
 
Yeah,
but it still uses 1 point boxes - I've just had a small play with it, and there's probably (?) somewhere to alter that, so you could presumably do something like set half a dozen different explorations up with one using say 0.25pt below $X, another using half a point from $Y to $Z, but why on earth not just provide the option to use either the traditional box sizes, Log boxes (my preference), Bollinger boxes, or some other scaling?
Whilst agreeing that this program is a major piece of work - it contains a stupendous amount in my view and this criticism is only of the P&F side - I'm surprised at how poorly this has been implemented, and it is FAR from being the great P&F toolbox described on the Equis site....
I'd still recommend it as a TA tool - don't get me wrong there, the good bits far outweigh things like this in my view, but the P&F support in it still seems very much an afterthought. That's not at all uncommon of course, I find it curious that so many TA biggies either ignore P&F or appear to put the B team on the job.
Dave
 
Dave....3.14am..takes some beating...

As as P & F expert....have you had chance to read the pdf file containing 50 ofdd pages under Metastock directory..????

What do you make of the P & F ToolBox....

Read page 15 of the manual to see what i am referring to...any comments would be appreciated...

regards
 
Hi,
I was busy still...<g>
Yes, although not word for word yet - all p15 says is that it redraws the chart when you change the boxsize? Am I misunderstanding the way this expert works here (entirely possible) or doesn't this just refer to the user setting an individaul chart up? The explorer, in my view, ought to set a suitable boxsize for the stock/commodity without my having to go into the whole SP500 one at a time to set it.
P31 - P&F Values, shows what appears to be the way to set THE default box and reversal up, and the settings in there (accroding to the final few pages as I read them) will then be used in the explorations etc. From this it seems to me that whilst you can alter the box size and reversal, it will then just mean that the charts that were good at 1x3 are now running using the new choice - in short, as far as I can see, you only ever get to run one box size and reversal at a time across all the shares selected. If you want to use say 0.25, 0.5, 1.0 boxes for various price ranges up to $100 say then you'd perhaps be able to do it by making three explorations up - one for say $5 and below, one for $5-20, the third for $20-100, and run them one after the other so they stripped out the shares in the selected price range, and then fed these in turn through the exploration with the box size being changed before each run.
On the other hand, allowing you to use say an X% log scale, or by programming in one of the other common scalings, a user could just select the scale, enter the chosen percentage if needed, and run one scan across the lot.
I can't see any way to scan, for example, using a 2% log x 3 reversal - if I've missed that I'll be pleased to be corrected!
The idea of a PC program ought to be to lessen the load on the user, who should be able to scan any loaded market with a sensible box x reversal applied using inbuilt program rules.
I did see, in passing, a note about optimised boxes that I'd missed before, which I'll certainly be taking a look at as I just added that to my own program - I'll be very interested to see what sort of figures that returns, as I'm still hoping to improve my own effort and seeing somebody else trying it is - of course - very interesting indeed.
Dave
 
Dave

I printed PDF manual called 'Point and Figure Toolbox' that is under directory Metastock..it has approx 45 pages with more descrittion...

There is a section called How to write your own point and figure formulae...these can be saved and tweaked as another formula...

In this MS the p & f info chart is created using values in **P & F Values **...this contains ExtFml ("pointFig.pointfig", DATA ARRAY, BOX SIZE, REVERSAL AMOUNT, THRESHOLD VALUE, RETURN VALUE )...I have typed word top word as it appears in the manual...

**P & F Values ** values set as default are ....data:=0 {setting data to 0 uses high and low range}

box:=1;
reversal:=3
threshold:=2

The above figures can be changed to suit...

What I have yet not tried is to create say a new ** P & F Values ** and then re write all formulaes so that they will reference this new one...

MS have used Dorsey's method to write the formulae...and also interestingly they mention box size of 1 and reversal of 3 is best for stocks with the value of 20 - 100...and hence the filter...

I have a feeling that it may be possible to create a set of formulae to achieve the explorations ..

I agree I can't see % log X reversal anywhere either....however it is early days yet and there may be a way...
 
Zambuck,

Dave’s right: you need to use a log scale to scan – I really wouldn’t know if you’re able to code this in Metastock, although I can’t see why you shouldn’t be able to create the code for individual instruments, I’d say that writing the “code” to scan a universe of instruments would be a much tougher proposition without being able to access to the Metastock source code?

Kaufman is probably the best place to start: http://www.numa.com/bookshop/books/9747.htm

HTH

Cheers

Mayfly
 
Hi Mayfly

I am not saying Dave is wrong..or I am right here...I am only evaluating the system and asking questions...still trying to digest...if it is points or percentage...

Also note you metioned log scale...and MS have developed the P & F using Dorsey's method...whatever that is...I have Dorsey's book and have scanned it briefly...I have a feeling it does not mention log scale...Now that does not mean that log scale should not or cannot be used......

This morning I scanned the FTSE 350 securities for the chart pattern recognition that has been made available with MS 9....and it did find the pattern reversals and few others shipped with MS....haven't tested it thoroughly...

It is early days yet as I said and I am still looking at the formulae that are shipped with MS..these allow users to tweak them to one's liking...

I have created new fml value from the one shipped (**P & F Values **)...and corresponding explorations all seemed to work...but I have not tested these for accuracy...still doing it..!!!

As far I know neither Dorsey or Zeig refers to log scale...all pay more emphasis on points??...I am probably all wrong here...perhaps an expert can explain as to when a %ge and point test should be done..

I have following question for experts...

For %ge test is it not possible to use other ways to scan a security etc rather than using P & F...???

For point test does the price range of security have any bearing on the box size to be used.....???

Is it better to use high-low or close only when using P & F..???

regards
 
Hi Mayfly

Sorry forgot to mention...thanks for the book ref...will look into it...at this rate I will have to move home library to bigger premises...!!

regards
 
Hi all
Can I chip in with some thoughts on log scale pnf charting from Jeremy du Plessis of Updata as included in their 2003 Residential TA Summer School material

  • Use for longer term analysis or when prices have had a sharp rise or fall
  • On log scale charts each box is different because each box size is a percentage
  • Instead of using a price box size, use a percentage box size
  • The sensitivity of the charts adjusts according to the price

Z
IMO the security price is very imprtant in assessing box size as is the drawdown issue

Box and reversal size will vary according to
  • Drawdown Level Acceptable
  • The range of the past prices
  • How sensitive you want the chart to be
  • What size of fractal moves you wish to capture
pnf originated on the floor as a shorthand method of recording intraday price canges and so it would seem that as much data detail as possible should be used ie H/L
 
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Hi Rognvald

Interesting comments....

I have used so far box sizes rather than percentage...as listed in Kermit Zeig and Caroll D'Aby Jrs boks...

See pdf file taken from Kermit Zeig's book below that I may be testing in MS 9...

I will filter out the price range and run three explorations...created from the ones supplied with Ms 9...

regards
 

Attachments

  • box sizes for traditional method.pdf
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Okay,
a number of issues here then ;)
Log scale - this guarantees that the same percentage move occupies the same number of boxes onscreen.
Dorsey/Zieg - Dorsey doesn't mention it, Zieg actually says that a 2% move (p33) is preferred - for some obscure reason they then go on to invent a new fixed scale rather than drawing the obvious inference, log 2% does exactly what they suggest.
("Hello foot, like my new gun? BANG!, oops, how did that happen? " ;) )
Don't get too stuck in Dorsey, he wrote during a long bull market when even Tarot cards worked. Weber/Zieg is better, although I would suggest this is a beginner's book primarily - they raise some interesting ideas, but there is no substitute for carrying out your own testing.
I've spent over a year now trying to improve the underlying 'win rate' of P&F by applying filters of one sort or another, and in all that time I've managed to gain about 10% over trading simple double tops. You must be extremely careful not to read too much into these texts - very few will quote an x% win rate for tactic A compared to y% using the plain double top or whatever. I've read a few, and you have to be aware that they're aiming for a style that looks 'clever than I am' with a few nuggets that look new - I've yet to discover the Holy Grail in any of them.
As an example, Marconi tumbled a few years back from £10 to about, oooh, a quid. No fixed price scale will handle that - if you wanted to trade the dead cat bounce (assuming there was one), for example, a log scale would cope - the box size on a 2% log chart at £10 would be 20p, after the crash the box size would be 2p, and you'd see the whole move on one chart, from start of fall to end of bounce. A fixed price scale like say 10p boxes would show the ups and downs prior to the fall, but be far too coarse to show any movement at the £1 end,
Price scalings like the traditional scaling (seen in Dorsey, on Stockcharts, and so on) or the variation in Weber and Zieg ensure the box size scales with the stock price, but in fairly 'grainy'/coarse steps - eg you might see a 10p box at £10, a 5p box at £5, but you also get a 5p box at 9.99 - the problem, with this style of scaling, is that at/around the cutoff values a share slightly under can have a radically different box size to a share slightly above - log scaling is smooth, the scale changes by an almost infinitessimally small amount every box, so the scale constantly adjusts to suit the share price.
THAT is why I favour it - I can see no advantage to rescaling every £X when you can do it just as easily every Xp.
The log scaling is appropriate in any circumstance, in my view, re Jeremy's bit on the Updata school log is particularly appropriate at those times, it would be (in my view) a serious error to assume that is was not so at other times also.
MS9 allows you to set box and reversal, the problem is that you only get to set one of each, when any P&F user knows full well that the optimum is to set each share's box and reversal individually - to suggest a blanket 1x3 (as the default setting) will be okay for the whole SP500 is laughable, Equis avoid this problem by introducing the filter that - instead of changing the box to a more appropriate size - simply rejects any share not within the chosen price band.
It would be all to easy to go OTT here, after all I'm not arguing with Equis and I like Metastock - I just consider the P&F toolbox is a long way from what their site describes - it's 'depth' (as in their site statement <<< No other analysis package gives you the depth of Point and Figure analysis that MetaStock does.>>> is, in my view, 'shallow'.
I suspect this will improve in time, and Metastock has many, many good points - it is far from my first choice for P&F however, and this toolbox reinforces my view that they do not consider this a significant area of TA.

Dave
 
Hi Zambuck,

My point was only that IF you’re scanning a universe of instruments for specific chart patterns – for example, and probably typically, multiple tops or bottoms – then the only way you’ll be able to do this in a practical and meaningful way is to use logarithmic scaling. Depending on the volatility of the instruments concerned, it’s the only way you’re going to be able to get the program to “reveal” the patterns you’re searching for on a like for like basis.

A two percent box size seems about right to me as a starting point for a first pass; but in general I find that I usually have to refine this (increase or decrement this value step by step to within the range 1.75-2.25 percent) when I’m looking through my results sets in order to “reveal” the pattern or patterns I’m looking for.

But, bear in mind that you don’t have to set up scans for specific patterns: you can get the same results – in terms of a range of promising charts patterns – if you simply scroll through the charts within a sector or a list of FTSE constituents (for example), and scan or flick through these charts visually?

HTH

Cheers

Mayfly
 
I've found some nice results by compiling a volatility percentage (I say "a" percentage because there are a few ways to calculate this) and using that figure to alter the log box size. I also found a sort of cutoff above which the winning percentage of trades dropped markedly, combining the optimised box size with avoiding the high rated trades has shown a lot of promise.
Although I've only got a small amount of data on the really high rated trades, compared to thousands of trades in the lower ratings, they seem (oddly) to do better with small boxes - which is contrary to popular opinion. Go figure!
Dave
 
'Cos everything I've read on the subject of setting box sizes suggests the more movement the bigger the box - Weber/Zieg for example double boxsize as volatility doubles. (W/Z are generating much of the interest methinks ;) )
Being an old cynic I've learned not to accept conventional rules for P&F, as so many seem to be based on some sort of religion rather than testing - so I built a volatilty/optimising system, tested it, and generally poor returns from high volatility share P&F trades were at their best from small rather than large boxes.
Not conclusive of course - most of the thousands of trades crunched fit into the "normal to low" volatility bracket, I'd need to crunch a lot more of the large volatility shares to be confident that the books were wrong. (I won't, however, be making any trades on shares with a volatility above 8% as calc'd by my program ;) )
Dave
 
Dave ...very comprehensive comments..sorry was away soon after and catching up with posts....


DaveJB said:
Okay,
a number of issues here then ;)
Log scale - this guarantees that the same percentage move occupies the same number of boxes onscreen.
Dorsey/Zieg - Dorsey doesn't mention it, Zieg actually says that a 2% move (p33) is preferred - for some obscure reason they then go on to invent a new fixed scale rather than drawing the obvious inference, log 2% does exactly what they suggest.

P & F is a 'fag packet' charting system rather than 'rocket science'.....a trader may have looked at a stock and decided to chart it using points rather tham log...points for a particular stock is easier to chart rather than log..?...question really..

The age of the books referred is also telling...all were written well before computers became vogue and therefore points rather than log..????...question
..


("Hello foot, like my new gun? BANG!, oops, how did that happen? " ;) )

Don't get too stuck in Dorsey, he wrote during a long bull market when even Tarot cards worked. Weber/Zieg is better, although I would suggest this is a beginner's book primarily - they raise some interesting ideas, but there is no substitute for carrying out your own testing.

But then for many it is easy to get 'stuck' with a book one is reading...how many books are there for P & F..Zeig...Carroll D'Aby jr....Wycoff....and many others...so it is good advise to readers...


I've spent over a year now trying to improve the underlying 'win rate' of P&F by applying filters of one sort or another, and in all that time I've managed to gain about 10% over trading simple double tops. You must be extremely careful not to read too much into these texts - very few will quote an x% win rate for tactic A compared to y% using the plain double top or whatever. I've read a few, and you have to be aware that they're aiming for a style that looks 'clever than I am' with a few nuggets that look new - I've yet to discover the Holy Grail in any of them.
As an example, Marconi tumbled a few years back from £10 to about, oooh, a quid. No fixed price scale will handle that - if you wanted to trade the dead cat bounce (assuming there was one), for example, a log scale would cope - the box size on a 2% log chart at £10 would be 20p, after the crash the box size would be 2p, and you'd see the whole move on one chart, from start of fall to end of bounce. A fixed price scale like say 10p boxes would show the ups and downs prior to the fall, but be far too coarse to show any movement at the £1 end,

agree with comments as they do make sense...So am I right in saying that what stared as a 'fag packet' science probably with points has really evolved as 'rocket science' with log..????

Price scalings like the traditional scaling (seen in Dorsey, on Stockcharts, and so on) or the variation in Weber and Zieg ensure the box size scales with the stock price, but in fairly 'grainy'/coarse steps - eg you might see a 10p box at £10, a 5p box at £5, but you also get a 5p box at 9.99 - the problem, with this style of scaling, is that at/around the cutoff values a share slightly under can have a radically different box size to a share slightly above - log scaling is smooth, the scale changes by an almost infinitessimally small amount every box, so the scale constantly adjusts to suit the share price.
THAT is why I favour it - I can see no advantage to rescaling every £X when you can do it just as easily every Xp.
The log scaling is appropriate in any circumstance, in my view, re Jeremy's bit on the Updata school log is particularly appropriate at those times, it would be (in my view) a serious error to assume that is was not so at other times also.
MS9 allows you to set box and reversal, the problem is that you only get to set one of each, when any P&F user knows full well that the optimum is to set each share's box and reversal individually - to suggest a blanket 1x3 (as the default setting) will be okay for the whole SP500 is laughable, Equis avoid this problem by introducing the filter that - instead of changing the box to a more appropriate size - simply rejects any share not within the chosen price band.

Agree...that may prove to be cumbersome...

It would be all to easy to go OTT here, after all I'm not arguing with Equis and I like Metastock - I just consider the P&F toolbox is a long way from what their site describes - it's 'depth' (as in their site statement <<< No other analysis package gives you the depth of Point and Figure analysis that MetaStock does.>>> is, in my view, 'shallow'.

They have been known to make some impressive comments but users know the limitations, I am sure...in fact many packages make similar claims...

I suspect this will improve in time, and Metastock has many, many good points - it is far from my first choice for P&F however, and this toolbox reinforces my view that they do not consider this a significant area of TA.

Dave

Comments in blue are by me...

Thanks Dave...

Zambuck
 
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Mayfly said:
Hi Zambuck,

My point was only that IF you’re scanning a universe of instruments for specific chart patterns – for example, and probably typically, multiple tops or bottoms – then the only way you’ll be able to do this in a practical and meaningful way is to use logarithmic scaling. Depending on the volatility of the instruments concerned, it’s the only way you’re going to be able to get the program to “reveal” the patterns you’re searching for on a like for like basis.

A two percent box size seems about right to me as a starting point for a first pass; but in general I find that I usually have to refine this (increase or decrement this value step by step to within the range 1.75-2.25 percent) when I’m looking through my results sets in order to “reveal” the pattern or patterns I’m looking for.

But, bear in mind that you don’t have to set up scans for specific patterns: you can get the same results – in terms of a range of promising charts patterns – if you simply scroll through the charts within a sector or a list of FTSE constituents (for example), and scan or flick through these charts visually?

HTH

Cheers

Mayfly

Thanks Mayfly...comments appreciated...

regards

Zambuck
 
Hi,
yes, points systems predate log inasmuch as whilst log charting is possible by hand, and was doubtless practised on a small scale, it is far easier to set up a scaling where you swap from one box size to another at particular price points. Computers allow easy use of logs, and other variations like Bollinger boxes and so forth. Dorsey - nice chap, well put together book on P&F, much (most?) of what is in there is the same stuff you'll find Chartcraft pushed out 50 years or more ago. I'm not decrying Dorsey, it's a decent reference book that doesn't stick its neck out, but I would argue that any book on P&F should spend a significant amount of time discussing log charts, the fixed scales used are designed for easy charting of US stocks - log charts will chart any market, and the continual change of box size avoids big jumps that just arbitrarily pop up. I'd also suggest that one box size to cover a five fold increase in price ($20-$100) should suggest to any casual observer that this is a heck of a range to cover in between scale changes.
PCs have indeed allowed a fair amount of work to be undertaken in TA, suprisingly little of it seems to have been done in P&F however. I used to think P&F was the poor relation for research, a lot of my effort over the past couple of years has been to produce a decent method of testing P&F reliability - how good are the signals. Trying to chase down comments about reliabilty often, almost always, led back to the same study from the 60's. Zieg has done more, I've done some, facts and figures arent overly common. When I've tried to find data for other areas I've come up blank quite often as well - I ma now a total cynic, when I read that so and so is x% effective I want to see the proof!
Fag packet - not really, P&F goes back a century or more, and was being used quite successfully. (Allegedly ;) ) These days it's easier to run through lots of charts etc and the PC won't miss things the way tired eyes might - doing it by hand in 1950 you'd maybe update a few dozen charts daily (P&F chart paper was available, ready printed, in the 30's if not sooner), it's just different.
Zieg, by the way, had a book out a few months back - cowritten with Heinrich Weber, under the Harriman House label (Global bookshop's publishing arm)... it includes the log comment I referred to, as well as mentioning three P&F packages with the odd screenshot, one of which modesty forbids etc. (The other two are Updata and Metastock).
To be honest not a lot in P&F is radical or new, as a charting style it attracts an unusual number of fanatics determined to stone to death those who use the wrong boxsize etc. Luckily it's quite a simple method all told, and like all TA 90% of winning with it is down to what you do with the signals rather than how you find them to start with.
Dave
 
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