Is it really that difficult?

[fridayeve]

Clearly there must be methodology in trading, without which anyone would fail, so to react to what you see on the tape suggests you must get it right the vast majority of the time, brilliant and well done. For those perhaps less experienced and less fortunate I would still recommend dealing with mind state first as this will lead to a much more clear view of what is happening.

 

[nine]

The rules could not be simpler, making sure you stick to them is the difficult bit. I would suggest that the first year is spent understanding oneself and the second year is spent learning what the markets are showing you. Finally the third year should be when you paper trade first and maybe some time after you have got the paper trades consistantly right, you might be ready to dip your toe in the water, that is of course assuming that you have by now a full understanding of who you are.
Regards Fridayeve.

I dont have an issue with the general tone of your advice friday but I suspect you have never tried to train a trader to follow the specifics. IMO such processes have feedback mechanisms and its not until you attempt to trade either with paper or cash that you discover the issues in your market or psychological understanding.

For interest sake I am trying to train a previously repeatedly failed trader in a style I find successful and I find that training him in method/market understanding is revealing the psychological side. Sure it helps to understand oneself but I think that alot of the understandings arise from the process of learning to trade. I dont think a year working on his self understanding, first, independent of trading would have helped enough to justify the year.

 

[dbphoenix]

Clearly there must be methodology in trading, without which anyone would fail, so to react to what you see on the tape suggests you must get it right the vast majority of the time, brilliant and well done. For those perhaps less experienced and less fortunate I would still recommend dealing with mind state first as this will lead to a much more clear view of what is happening.

I plant my flag somewhere in the middle of all of this. Yes, it's possible to develop an intuitive sense of the market IF one is immersed in the action and his cash outlasts his learning curve. Most, however, don't take this route. They trade part-time or they trade swings or they trade whatever other incidental opportunities present themselves. They therefore take far longer to learn the pulses and the rhythms and the flows, if they ever do, and it is during this stage that "psychological issues" are most likely to present themselves.

I used to think that one needed to "get in touch with himself" and examine his feelings and his fears and his hopes blah blah, but I eventually found that if one had a consistently profitable trading plan, the "psychological issues" pretty much evaporated. After all, it is no great leap to imagine that the less confidence one has in what he is doing, the more likely he is to be, for example, fearful (of pulling the trigger, of taking a loss, of cutting profits short blah blah).

Few things breed confidence and discipline as well as a consistently profitable trading plan. And if one is confident and disciplined, what is there to get all emotional about?

Of course, one must also decide just what it is that he wants from the market, and few people go beyond "make money", but so few do that one wonders just what it is that they really want from the market. So my first questions have to do with what the trader-to-be wants. Then he figures out how to get it. And with at least two charting programs offering replay functions, what used to take a year can take less than a month.

The stick in the spokes, of course, is developing the plan, which most people will avoid at all costs. But it's a lot easier and a lot cheaper than therapy, and probably more effective.

 

[barjon]

The stick in the spokes, of course, is developing the plan, which most people will avoid at all costs. But it's a lot easier and a lot cheaper than therapy, and probably more effective.

Db

You often say this, but I'd be surprised if most who are serious didn't have a plan - albeit maybe frail and insufficiently tested. I also suspect that many get burned by "off plan" trading (either off plan completely or bending the plan rules), particularly for those who are intensely interested in the markets and spending many hours logged in each day.

It's a bit like going racing. The punters "plan" may have only thrown up a bet in the fifth race, but few can resist having a flutter on the other races.

What was that phrase you used - aggressive inaction - ah, yes, that sums it up.

good trading

jon

 

[dbphoenix]

Db

You often say this, but I'd be surprised if most who are serious didn't have a plan - albeit maybe frail and insufficiently tested.

It is surprising, but unfortunately true. I'm still surprised at how many years one can trade, present a successful persona, freely give out advice, yet consistently lose money. And it isn't until one tries to nail down the person's trading plan that the fact of his having stepped through the looking glass so long ago becomes evident.

But people enter the markets for many reasons having nothing to do with making money, so the lack of planning should come as no great surprise. That coupled with the perception that in order to be a "great trader", one ought to be able to "feel" his way through.

But I'm already repeating myself, and the point's been made. Some will knuckle down and get to it, some won't, the latter providing the former with a living. Plus ca change . . .

 

[fridayeve]

Emotions

Surely you would agree that emotions have no place intrading, for if one allows emotional thoughts in the insiders will win every time.

I plant my flag somewhere in the middle of all of this. Yes, it's possible to develop an intuitive sense of the market IF one is immersed in the action and his cash outlasts his learning curve. Most, however, don't take this route. They trade part-time or they trade swings or they trade whatever other incidental opportunities present themselves. They therefore take far longer to learn the pulses and the rhythms and the flows, if they ever do, and it is during this stage that "psychological issues" are most likely to present themselves.

I used to think that one needed to "get in touch with himself" and examine his feelings and his fears and his hopes blah blah, but I eventually found that if one had a consistently profitable trading plan, the "psychological issues" pretty much evaporated. After all, it is no great leap to imagine that the less confidence one has in what he is doing, the more likely he is to be, for example, fearful (of pulling the trigger, of taking a loss, of cutting profits short blah blah).

Few things breed confidence and discipline as well as a consistently profitable trading plan. And if one is confident and disciplined, what is there to get all emotional about?

Of course, one must also decide just what it is that he wants from the market, and few people go beyond "make money", but so few do that one wonders just what it is that they really want from the market. So my first questions have to do with what the trader-to-be wants. Then he figures out how to get it. And with at least two charting programs offering replay functions, what used to take a year can take less than a month.

The stick in the spokes, of course, is developing the plan, which most people will avoid at all costs. But it's a lot easier and a lot cheaper than therapy, and probably more effective.

 

[dbphoenix]

Surely you would agree that emotions have no place intrading, for if one allows emotional thoughts in the insiders will win every time.

Sorry, is this related to the post you quoted? If so, I'm afraid I don't see the connection.

 

[fridayeve]

Responding to dbphoenix and general readers.

[AQUOTE=dbphoenix]Sorry, is this related to the post you quoted? If so, I'm afraid I don't see the connection.[/QUOTE]


Actually I was responding to the idea that if there is no real plan then one is more likely to become fearful of pulling the trigger etc. Ofcourse this is a late response as I have not been around, so I apologise if Im a little late in responding. The point I was making was that to talk in terms of fear and doubt is to include emotions in the arena of trading and I would argue that as soon as you allow those in , the insiders will fleece you every time.Of course there will always be those whom lady luck shines upon but as all seasoned traders are aware the idea that this is some sort of gambling arena where good fortune plays any part is as removed from reality as the posibility that the insiders will make a mistake and give you back your money, so that you can try again.
I am constantly reminded through this platform how difficult it is to convince people that there is no conclusive evidence pointing to a specific methodology that will work as that is only half of the required understanding, the other requirement is understanding what you are seeing!

 

[nine]

LOL Salty.

Wow, if Trading in the Zone was exhilarating I'd hate to see you trading.

You might also enjoy "The Psychology of Trading" by Brett Steenbarger which is also very grounded and written by a day trader.

 

[Gustavo_ZAM]

I mentioned this in a similar thread...i believe making a living from trading is very difficult and not suitable for everyone. In my opinion, anyone (almost) can develop the necessary skills and discipline, but not everyone is willing to dedicate the time and effort. It's an on-going process

 

[HeavLeighGill]

People do make money and trading isn’t impossible. I’d say the difficulty level depends on you personally, as some may learn more quickly and understand the market better. I think the high failure rate involves a lot of the people who open trading accounts thinking they’ll get rich quick without knowing what they’re doing.