Intuitive trading the pinnacle ?

[DepthTangent]

Simple question really, and aimed at the more experienced traders.

Is trading by intuition the pinnacle of market understanding ?

I never did see what edge a simple moving average or any other so called indicator can provide one with, when you can see where the market has been going well before any "signal" is generated, and indeed when I started out trading, found that I was generally a loser using this kind of "technology". So, a basic understanding of cycles, parameters of vibrational force, assessment of general global stability, intermarket correlation followed by a quick glance at the respective charts does the business ?

 

[frugi]

A few quick thoughts ...

1. Most importantly, the right to rely on intuiton has to be earned. Acting on gut feel with no experience to direct it is unlikely to end well. (also see pt. 5)

2. If the subconscious is free to assimilate data and patterns then it can learn, or at least assemble meaningfully, without the conscious realising. By free I mean, at least in the trading sense, unclouded by emotion, available and willing to accept input without prejudice. In time it can then regurgitate its studies usefully. It knows far more than one can simultaneously comfortably hold in the conscious present and has the capacity to direct action far more swiftly and cohesively as a result, as long as the conscious doesn't interfere.

(2.a I play guitar and play best when I am not thinking about what I am playing. This is because the subconscious is then free to provide input, direct control even, without the inhibition of restrictive conscious 'rules'. But the poor beggar has had to suffer my playing endless scales and listening over-and-over to legendary guitarists to be able to do this. Compare sportsmen, golfers having a brilliant day until they start "trying to play well". etc. There's quite a cute book called Inner Tennis that describes this phenomenon.)

3. Back to trading, once the subconscious seems aware of certain patterns it will often whisper, say, "Exit here" with uncanny accuracy, before the conscious is aware of an exit signal.

4. If it is proved correct in so doing a significant number of times, then the task is to consciously understand why. If it has recognised a repeating pattern or market condition then it should be possible to deconstruct this logically. (If I play something on the guitar of a surprisingly good quality of which I genuinely thought I was not capable, almost as if my fingers were doing the work for me, then it must be possible to imprint these new ideas into my conscious technique).

You 'feel' a bull move building, but you can't yet see it in the tape or the chart. The numbers and progression still make no sense. So you study the tape and the chart with the the new knowledge that it must be telling you something important, until the feeling becomes a logically deducted reality. Then that previously invisible intuition can become part of the conscious method and rules applied around it. This is very diffcult, for me at least.

Perhaps the pinnacle of trading is to gather all one's unconscious knowledge (intuitions) into a series of organised, correct judgements regarding the workings of the market, ones which hold true in every situation, and then act flawlessly upon them where appropriate.

5. Beware of fear and greed and other destructive instincts masquerading as useful intuition. For every "It must fall here" that is based on correct intuitive recognition of market conditions, there are likely to be nine instinctive responses that actually mean "I am long and scared and want to take my small profit because that's what my inept fight/flight instinct is telling me." The subconscious is a skilful deceiver, which is a good reason to bring its correct advice safely into the conscious while insulating oneself against its primitive, unhelpful messages.

6. I think successful traders who use intuition never rely on it solely and tend to avoid risk even more fiercely than those that follow more scientific approaches. Successful discretionary traders are in the absolute minority. (This of course raises the perennial question - are discretionary traders simply following more complex and less easily quantifiable rules than their systematic brethren or is there a genuine divide between the two? I would say yes they are but I'd be surprised if you could code those rules in a manner so that they could be automated and therein lies the crucial difference. Viva the brain, for now at least. )

7. The subconscious may understand other traders' emotions more deeply than the conscious and perhaps is thus more tuned into the fluidity, motives, causes and effects of price action than an arbitrary chart viewed by one's rational self can be. This is a statement for which I have no proof, but it ties in a neat half-hitch.

All imho. In the scheme of things I am a rank beginner so plz take with a cruet of salt.

From Wikipedia -

Intuition is an unconscious form of knowledge. It is immediate and often not open to rational/analytical thought processes. Intuition differs from an opinion since opinion is based on experience, while an intuition is held to be affected by previous experiences only unconsciously. It's hard to form an opinion from knowledge of which you are consciously unaware. (my italics). Intuition also differs from instinct, which does not have the experience element at all. Intuition is trans-intellectual, while instinct is pre-intellectual. A person who has an intuitive opinion cannot immediately fully explain why he or she holds that view. However, a person may later rationalize an intuition by developing a chain of logic to demonstrate more structurally why the intuition is valid. Indeed.

 

[DepthTangent]

A good reply frugi, you make some interesting points and expand on a couple of psychological aspects that I haven't given any considerable time to study.

I agree with point 1 entirely, intuitive trading does have to be earned, it has to be earned at the expense of making mistakes aswell as general research and understanding. If you accept you made a mistake, adapt to the mistake and dont try and rationalise that experience away as some kind of market conspiracy that is operating against yourself then your next lesson comes along swiftly, and thus one is well on the road to tunnelling through the process of clarification. (I consider clarification as profitable trading)

Point 7 is also highly interesting, and I find myself synchronising with this philosophical ideal.

With so much noise in the public domain, the conscious mind is subjected to confusion due to the variety of idea's, rules, unvalidated trading concepts, contradictory news reports etc etc and thus one must ask is this the level of mental awareness that can consistently acquire the pinnacle of trading expertise ? Iam not so sure. I'am no mr perfect, however I find myself increasingly knowing when to enter and when to exit based on intuition, verified and validated at the point of entry by price action. I feel that the price action is the rational conscious trigger that provides the signal for the unconscious intuitive readiness. Its a kind of trust that you develop with yourself, you are in tune to something other than fear and greed.

You also mention the whispering from the unconcious. I guess this is probably gained by opening up your subconcious mind to the patterns that your brain recieves whilst studying the charts. After looking at the charts over and over after several years, using any market sector as data, you begin to understand their vibrational personalities. These personalities become embedded within you, and you subsequently make fewer and fewer mistakes.

"Perhaps the pinnacle of trading is to gather all one's unconscious knowledge (intuitions) into a series of organised, correct judgements regarding the workings of the market, ones which hold true in every situation, and then act flawlessly upon them where appropriate."

Yes I suppose this is the pinnacle. Ok, I'll settle for less than the pinnacle, lets rename this new definition to the pinnacle of practical market understanding, based on percentage of successes (for now atleast).

I ought not to stop up so late, I might actually calculate whats going on some day

Interesting few thoughts frugi.

 

[rols]

A few quick thoughts ...

1. Most importantly, the right to rely on intuiton has to be earned. Acting on gut feel with no experience to direct it is unlikely to end well. (also see pt. 5)

2. If the subconscious is free to assimilate data and patterns then it can learn, or at least assemble meaningfully, without the conscious realising. By free I mean, at least in the trading sense, unclouded by emotion, available and willing to accept input without prejudice. In time it can then regurgitate its studies usefully. It knows far more than one can simultaneously comfortably hold in the conscious present and has the capacity to direct action far more swiftly and cohesively as a result, as long as the conscious doesn't interfere.

(2.a I play guitar and play best when I am not thinking about what I am playing. This is because the subconscious is then free to provide input, direct control even, without the inhibition of restrictive conscious 'rules'. But the poor beggar has had to suffer my playing endless scales and listening over-and-over to legendary guitarists to be able to do this. Compare sportsmen, golfers having a brilliant day until they start "trying to play well". etc. There's quite a cute book called Inner Tennis that describes this phenomenon.)

3. Back to trading, once the subconscious seems aware of certain patterns it will often whisper, say, "Exit here" with uncanny accuracy, before the conscious is aware of an exit signal.

4. If it is proved correct in so doing a significant number of times, then the task is to consciously understand why. If it has recognised a repeating pattern or market condition then it should be possible to deconstruct this logically. (If I play something on the guitar of a surprisingly good quality of which I genuinely thought I was not capable, almost as if my fingers were doing the work for me, then it must be possible to imprint these new ideas into my conscious technique).

You 'feel' a bull move building, but you can't yet see it in the tape or the chart. The numbers and progression still make no sense. So you study the tape and the chart with the the new knowledge that it must be telling you something important, until the feeling becomes a logically deducted reality. Then that previously invisible intuition can become part of the conscious method and rules applied around it. This is very diffcult, for me at least.

Perhaps the pinnacle of trading is to gather all one's unconscious knowledge (intuitions) into a series of organised, correct judgements regarding the workings of the market, ones which hold true in every situation, and then act flawlessly upon them where appropriate.

5. Beware of fear and greed and other destructive instincts masquerading as useful intuition. For every "It must fall here" that is based on correct intuitive recognition of market conditions, there are likely to be nine instinctive responses that actually mean "I am long and scared and want to take my small profit because that's what my inept fight/flight instinct is telling me." The subconscious is a skilful deceiver, which is a good reason to bring its correct advice safely into the conscious while insulating oneself against its primitive, unhelpful messages.

6. I think successful traders who use intuition never rely on it solely and tend to avoid risk even more fiercely than those that follow more scientific approaches. Successful discretionary traders are in the absolute minority. (This of course raises the perennial question - are discretionary traders simply following more complex and less easily quantifiable rules than their systematic brethren or is there a genuine divide between the two? I would say yes they are but I'd be surprised if you could code those rules in a manner so that they could be automated and therein lies the crucial difference. Viva the brain, for now at least. )

7. The subconscious may understand other traders' emotions more deeply than the conscious and perhaps is thus more tuned into the fluidity, motives, causes and effects of price action than an arbitrary chart viewed by one's rational self can be. This is a statement for which I have no proof, but it ties in a neat half-hitch.

All imho. In the scheme of things I am a rank beginner so plz take with a cruet of salt.

From Wikipedia -

Intuition is an unconscious form of knowledge. It is immediate and often not open to rational/analytical thought processes. Intuition differs from an opinion since opinion is based on experience, while an intuition is held to be affected by previous experiences only unconsciously. It's hard to form an opinion from knowledge of which you are consciously unaware. (my italics). Intuition also differs from instinct, which does not have the experience element at all. Intuition is trans-intellectual, while instinct is pre-intellectual. A person who has an intuitive opinion cannot immediately fully explain why he or she holds that view. However, a person may later rationalize an intuition by developing a chain of logic to demonstrate more structurally why the intuition is valid. Indeed.

Frugi

I am totally in harmony with these points and I hope my counter melody may enhance your piece further. For those of us beating a different drum we are often dismissed as the touchy- feely-psycho-babble-brigade and I would accuse those in turn of belonging to the eyes wide shut fraternity. I am sure the answer lies therein between. IMO intution and inspiration are talents and I am sure they can be assimilated to a certain extent. An artist cannot rely on talent alone to realise his work he also needs to learn the tools of his craft and have the discipline to translate his intutions/feelings into a work of distinction. Likewise, being able to play every riff and chord in the book is useless without the emotional freedom to then turn this skill into a successful performance or song and to use this acquired technique as a basis for producing something unique and memorable. Letting self 2 (right brain) find the '1% 'inspiration' after the '99% perspiration' is the tricky part.

ASC expresses this concept beautifully in "Unfashionable Advice." I quote;

In the same way the human ear must physically detect acoustic vibrations to hear sounds, so must the trader train him or herself to detect information from across all the physical senses and from the supra-physical senses too. Some will call it 'Traders Intuition', others 'being in sync with the market'. But it goes much further than that. You must develop skills in order to develop skills. Do you understand this? The skills you must develop in order to develop the skills you need for trading successfully are focus, concentration, awareness and absolute and total commitment. To understand the difference between awareness and perception. And to train yourself to delay the transition of one into the other. This is just the start. If I were to tell you, honestly and simpy the process you will have to go through, the effort, the hours, the physical and mental strain and the contortions of mind you will need to perform - you would either not believe me or if you did, would choose not to do it. Who in their right mind would? But for those who have no choice, who are burning with the passion to trade, the absolute need to trade, they will willingly follow and inwardly recognize and comprehend that what I am saying is true. Because they know it can't be that simple. Or every fool and his dog would be doing it. These are the sensible ones. The ones that can learn.

 

[DepthTangent]

"This of course raises the perennial question - are discretionary traders simply following more complex and less easily quantifiable rules than their systematic brethren or is there a genuine divide between the two? I would say yes they are but I'd be surprised if you could code those rules in a manner so that they could be automated and therein lies the crucial difference. Viva the brain, for now at least."

Drawing a reference from your point 1, profitable trading via intuition must be earned. Intuitive traders are not necessarily using more complex rules, they are merely applying the rules with greater accuracy. However having said that, the rules of an intuitive trader IMO are the result of extensive research into a vast sea of contributory factors that some of which ultimately drive the market. So until one covers the required ground that is needed in order to be prepared for each and every variable that has the capacity to present itself as a hurdle to be negotiated (these variables are the variables that can lead to one thinking there is a conspiracy against yourself) then one can derive a conclusion as follows. Any person who has not covered the ground is highly probable to be trading lesser complex systems. Secondly, if you are trading lesser complex systems then this can be defined as a genuine difference between the two types of individuals who are trading.

So how can one define the ingredients that are required attributes for success ? Experience, diligence, self belief, humility, determined study, philosophical introspection which all compile themselves into your subconscious, and eventually when you have processed this info via thinking about it on a conscious level and thus refining and allocating your experience to an extent where you can feel the subconscious nibble, you develop an inner framework that has a vast arsenal of tools at its disposal which you can instinctively draw upon in any situation that presents itself with similar qualities, and thus apply this intuition in terms of the probable outcome being A or B. Its also important to consider ones overall health and wellbeing, this is a crucial factor, as peak health allows one to maximise brain potential subsequently leading to increased processing power.

 

[Charlton]

Frugi - Excellent Post

A few quick thoughts ...

1. Most importantly, the right to rely on intuiton has to be earned. Acting on gut feel with no experience to direct it is unlikely to end well. (also see pt. 5)

Absolutely right - ACTING on it without experience is fraught with danger, but I would say that intuition CAN come before experience. This is why we have child prodigies, but they need the experience to channel the intuition properly

2. If the subconscious is free to assimilate data and patterns then it can learn, or at least assemble meaningfully, without the conscious realising. By free I mean, at least in the trading sense, unclouded by emotion, available and willing to accept input without prejudice. In time it can then regurgitate its studies usefully. It knows far more than one can simultaneously comfortably hold in the conscious present and has the capacity to direct action far more swiftly and cohesively as a result, as long as the conscious doesn't interfere.

Yes - and experience helps to release the subconscious from the conscious. Just as a musician can be playing the piano, not looking at the keyboard and having a conversation with someone at the same time. The subconscious does the playing - the conscious is preoccupied with the conversation.

(2.a I play guitar and play best when I am not thinking about what I am playing. This is because the subconscious is then free to provide input, direct control even, without the inhibition of restrictive conscious 'rules'. But the poor beggar has had to suffer my playing endless scales and listening over-and-over to legendary guitarists to be able to do this. Compare sportsmen, golfers having a brilliant day until they start "trying to play well". etc. There's quite a cute book called Inner Tennis that describes this phenomenon.)

3. Back to trading, once the subconscious seems aware of certain patterns it will often whisper, say, "Exit here" with uncanny accuracy, before the conscious is aware of an exit signal.

Exactly - you can see the pattern - you just know that it is congestion, that it is a breakout to the North etc, You don't need to draw lines or use indicators it is crystal clear

4. If it is proved correct in so doing a significant number of times, then the task is to consciously understand why. If it has recognised a repeating pattern or market condition then it should be possible to deconstruct this logically. (If I play something on the guitar of a surprisingly good quality of which I genuinely thought I was not capable, almost as if my fingers were doing the work for me, then it must be possible to imprint these new ideas into my conscious technique).

This is a temptation. It is the conscious and everyday persona saying "I must determine the logic behind this reasoning". It is necessary for survival because the everyday persona needs to determine cause and effect in order to survive. However by allowng this persona to dominate it will subjugate the subconscious - the real you that is intuitive and in touch with the ebb and flow of the life-force.

You 'feel' a bull move building, but you can't yet see it in the tape or the chart. The numbers and progression still make no sense. So you study the tape and the chart with the the new knowledge that it must be telling you something important, until the feeling becomes a logically deducted reality. Then that previously invisible intuition can become part of the conscious method and rules applied around it. This is very diffcult, for me at least.

As above - if the subconscious is working well why do you need to do it ? Why do you need to give way to the conscious persona ? Why do you need to make it difficult, when you can go with the flow ?

Perhaps the pinnacle of trading is to gather all one's unconscious knowledge (intuitions) into a series of organised, correct judgements regarding the workings of the market, ones which hold true in every situation, and then act flawlessly upon them where appropriate.

5. Beware of fear and greed and other destructive instincts masquerading as useful intuition. For every "It must fall here" that is based on correct intuitive recognition of market conditions, there are likely to be nine instinctive responses that actually mean "I am long and scared and want to take my small profit because that's what my inept fight/flight instinct is telling me." The subconscious is a skilful deceiver, which is a good reason to bring its correct advice safely into the conscious while insulating oneself against its primitive, unhelpful messages.

Indeed - we have many personas for various purposes. I plan to start a thead on this area based on some work I came across in Australia a few years ago, but haven't had the time yet. These destructive instincts are not intuition because they do not derive from the true self. All personas are created for survival, as you say Masks. Fear is a persona who attempts to help you survive by not allowing you to take risks e.g. jump from a tall building. Greed is a persona who helps you survive by making sure you have adequate supplies of food, drink, accommodation etc plus some to spare.

6. I think successful traders who use intuition never rely on it solely and tend to avoid risk even more fiercely than those that follow more scientific approaches. Successful discretionary traders are in the absolute minority. (This of course raises the perennial question - are discretionary traders simply following more complex and less easily quantifiable rules than their systematic brethren or is there a genuine divide between the two? I would say yes they are but I'd be surprised if you could code those rules in a manner so that they could be automated and therein lies the crucial difference. Viva the brain, for now at least. )

Yes - taking unnecessary and cavalier risk is not an act of the true self. It is another persona - it may be a persona of greed or a persona of wishing to be liked by others, to be found interesting. Both are survival strategies.

Successful discretionary traders are in the minority because they have learnt how to distinguish the true self from the persona, which is difficult to do. They could certainly codify a set of successful trading rules, but never to the n'th degree, because they defy logic - they just feel right.

7. The subconscious may understand other traders' emotions more deeply than the conscious and perhaps is thus more tuned into the fluidity, motives, causes and effects of price action than an arbitrary chart viewed by one's rational self can be. This is a statement for which I have no proof, but it ties in a neat half-hitch.

The subconscious of the true self, does understand them, because it can act as an unbiased observer. The conscious represents the consciousness of a persona. Have any of you watched those TV programmes where 2 families swap wives for a week ? Have you noticed how easily each wife can wind up the other during the final meeting ? The 2 families are deliberately chosen to sit on opposite sides of the fence with regard to their domestic arrangements - one believes in a tidy home and children who should be seen and not heard. The other believes in freedom and expression. When one criticises the lifestyle of the other the argument blows up very quickly. Why? Because their "Wife/Mother" persona is threatened by criticism. This persona is essential for survival and, thus, when threatened deep emotions are stirred and exuded to defend it. Emotions arise as a threat to the persona and detract from taking the actions necessary for the true self.

More of this fascinating stuff will follow

Charlton

 

[Charlton]

In Harmony also

Frugi

I am totally in harmony with these points and I hope my counter melody may enhance your piece further. For those of us beating a different drum we are often dismissed as the touchy- feely-psycho-babble-brigade and I would accuse those in turn of belonging to the eyes wide shut fraternity.

Rols
Also absolutely in harmony with both of you. Let's keep the beat going !

I am sure the answer lies therein between. IMO intution and inspiration are talents and I am sure they can be assimilated to a certain extent. An artist cannot rely on talent alone to realise his work he also needs to learn the tools of his craft and have the discipline to translate his intutions/feelings into a work of distinction. Likewise, being able to play every riff and chord in the book is useless without the emotional freedom to then turn this skill into a successful performance or song and to use this acquired technique as a basis for producing something unique and memorable. Letting self 2 (right brain) find the '1% 'inspiration' after the '99% perspiration' is the tricky part.

Again - absolutely on the mark

Charlton

 

[sandpiper]

A few quick thoughts ...

Jaysus,

How you right-brain types like to go on an on......

Never call a sturdy digging tool having a thick handle and a heavy, flat blade that can be pressed into the ground with the foot a spade, huh? JK gents.......

Anyway,

You 'feel' a bull move building, but you can't yet see it in the tape or the chart. The numbers and progression still make no sense. So you study the tape and the chart with the the new knowledge that it must be telling you something important, until the feeling becomes a logically deducted reality. Then that previously invisible intuition can become part of the conscious method and rules applied around it. This is very difficult, for me at least.

if it can't be seen it in the tape (whatever your definition of tape happens to be) or the chart, then I would venture to suggest it isn't there. However, if by 'feel' you mean you are synthesising some sort of 'motive' or 'intent' (borrowing from big S.) through evaluation of other factor(s), then you should be able to subsequently evaluate those logically. I can see where the difficulties might arise with the 'factors' that you use though and I can see why you believe there to be a piece missing.

Personally, like you, my own goal is to develop that 'intuition' to the extent that at any given time I know whether I want to be long or short. A bit like Jack Hershey's SCT, but different modus operandi). Speaking of which, there's a very good post by Mr. Hershey (another good poster whose message gets lost because of peoples inability to see past the messenger) buried somewhere over on ET that describes an 'exercise' (yes.... alright rols I know.... paper trading.... that can help in the development of a more intuitive trading style/method. It's the one with the 405 cards each with a different HH:MM on (each corresponding to a particular time during the US Equity Index Futures RTH session). It's a shame really, there are a great many such 'exercises' (including emulating clacker watching by recording prices on a sheet of graph paper, last mentioned by big S..... really helps with properly developing a intuitive feel for P&F as well...) but in the search for instant gratification a lot of these posts get lost. No, doubt people will shout 'botox' and ask 'why take a knife to gun fight?'. Maybe they are right.

As above - if the subconscious is working well why do you need to do it ? Why do you need to give way to the conscious persona ? Why do you need to make it difficult, when you can go with the flow ?

I can see the point. Under ideal circumstances the subconscious Angie Watts would be continuously evaluating, synthesising and learning until such time as she spots a situation needing attention. At that point the conscious Dirty Den takes over, he decides on whether to go with the broken glass, the pistol or the sawn-off. He plans his escape route and then..... acts, no tears... no guilt......

Alternatively, I suppose old Albert Einstein visualising himself riding a sunbeam to the edge of the universe, but returning by curved path to the sun (no connecting service from Crewe required)... and we all know what came next... is a reasonable example of the power of the two 'consciousnesses' working together.

Drawing a reference from your point 1, profitable trading via intuition must be earned. Intuitive traders are not necessarily using more complex rules, they are merely applying the rules with greater accuracy. However having said that, the rules of an intuitive trader IMO are the result of extensive research into a vast sea of contributory factors that some of which ultimately drive the market. So until one covers the required ground that is needed in order to be prepared for each and every variable that has the capacity to present itself as a hurdle to be negotiated (these variables are the variables that can lead to one thinking there is a conspiracy against yourself) then one can derive a conclusion as follows. Any person who has not covered the ground is highly probable to be trading lesser complex systems. Secondly, if you are trading lesser complex systems then this can be defined as a genuine difference between the two types of individuals who are trading.

Personally, having conducted the extensive research I didn't make any truly significant progress until I managed to bury it all again. I do like "vibrational personalities" though. Very good. As for the rest.... well, we all find our own way I guess but it's seven years since I read Pring, and when I put a trade on, I couldn't tell you what the price of oil is, the yield on the 30 year treasury, the value of the Dollar Index, or the price of fish. Nevertheless, I agree with with your sentiment with regards to intuition, i.e. it's not what you do, it's the way that you do it. That's what gets results. (Bananarama and FB3)...

 

[rols]

May I first add a few Einstein quotes?

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.

Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.

A person starts to live when he can live outside himself.

Everything is determined by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust - we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.

First of all I need to clarify in my mind what intuition is and the more I think about it the more I am at a loss to put it into words. I can only ask questions, possibly not the right ones.

1. Is intuition the gateway to Universal Consciousness?
2. Is intuition the result of Passive Observation in the Theta state? Being 'in the zone'.
3. Is intuition the necessary staging post to true inspiration, the beginning of an infinite transcendental journey?

As I proposed previously, is the key to success a marriage of logical thinking (positivism) and intuition? A master musician is able to perform the most complex of tasks utilising memory, dexterity, coordination while conveying intense emotion yet remaining in control and presenting the illusion of spontaneity while simultaneously evaluating and adjusting his performance in terms of past present and future with split second timing so could it be the same for the master trader?

This is the first part I believe.

 

[rols]

Personally, like you, my own goal is to develop that 'intuition' to the extent that at any given time I know whether I want to be long or short. A bit like Jack Hershey's SCT, but different modus operandi). Speaking of which, there's a very good post by Mr. Hershey (another good poster whose message gets lost because of peoples inability to see past the messenger) buried somewhere over on ET that describes an 'exercise' (yes.... alright rols I know.... paper trading.... that can help in the development of a more intuitive trading style/method. It's the one with the 405 cards each with a different HH:MM on (each corresponding to a particular time during the US Equity Index Futures RTH session)...

I respect any man who admits to watching Eastenders. Enjoyed your post too...
The above is v. interesting and is not dissimilar to an approach I have been taking(NB not paper trading though I loved the paper pants idea for newbie traders - make 'em buy 1000 shares on RIMM and see how how effective those pants become) and perhaps you may be kind enough to point me in the direction of Hershey's intuition exercises otherwise I'll spend the next week trawling through his epic and miss Eastenders myself.

 

[sandpiper]

rols,

It's not like I really get a choice on the Eastenders front

That post is here:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1037022&highlight=400+cards#post1037022

It's not explicitly an intuition exercise. I just think it could be a useful drill in developing a more intuitive approach. It's a more formalised version of something a few people used to do a few years ago on another site.

As to your questions, i.e.

1. Is intuition the gateway to Universal Consciousness?.
2. Is intuition the result of Passive Observation in the Theta state? Being 'in the zone'.
3. Is intuition the necessary staging post to true inspiration, the beginning of an infinite transcendental journey?


Bit deep for me I'm afraid, with the exception of no. 2. The ability to synthesise, rather than rationalise is undoubtedly improved when alpha and theta can be achieved and sustained.

Whilst I would never dismiss any of this as 'touchy- feely-psycho-babble-brigade', I'm more interested in the practical applications of this to trading. For example, I wonder why more people don't orient their screen workspace so that price development is viewed on the left side. Also, isn't the display of price development from left to right, rather than right to left, actually counter-intuitive?

 

[rols]

rols,

It's not like I really get a choice on the Eastenders front

That post is here:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1037022&highlight=400+cards#post1037022

It's not explicitly an intuition exercise. I just think it could be a useful drill in developing a more intuitive approach. It's a more formalised version of something a few people used to do a few years ago on another site.

As to your questions, i.e.

1. Is intuition the gateway to Universal Consciousness?.
2. Is intuition the result of Passive Observation in the Theta state? Being 'in the zone'.
3. Is intuition the necessary staging post to true inspiration, the beginning of an infinite transcendental journey?


Bit deep for me I'm afraid, with the exception of no. 2. The ability to synthesise, rather than rationalise is undoubtedly improved when alpha and theta can be achieved and sustained.

Whilst I would never dismiss any of this as 'touchy- feely-psycho-babble-brigade', I'm more interested in the practical applications of this to trading. For example, I wonder why more people don't orient their screen workspace so that price development is viewed on the left side. Also, isn't the display of price development from left to right, rather than right to left, actually counter-intuitive?

Thanks for the link. I look forward to reading it. Also, I wonder if we'll get to see Bradley trading derivatives at some point.

By way of coincidence and relevance I stumbled across this recent post on ET.

If you think all of the above is gobble-de-gook, then maybe you'll listen up if I suggest that this is the secret to exceptional trading, too. If you only exist in the NOW, you are free from past (fears) and free from future (prediction). You just do what you should be doing NOW. In physical terms, this process can be made visible by f-MRI scans of brain wave activity. The "executive brain" in the frontal cortex (think forehead) almost exclusively makes decisions when "in the zone", with little activity in the "animal instinct", limbic system, and formal-analytical (left) hemisphere of the brain. This results in better, more intuitive and less (past/future-)biased decisions.

For more on this, read Ari Kiev and Eckhart Tolle. Must-reads for any trader, IMHO. Once you "get it", you'll never look back.

whole post at http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1051079#post1051079

I like the idea of left to right display and in addition inverting price action, though I have recently abandoned charts altogether for day trading.
I would like to develop the discourse further re intuition and practical applications but I am caught between a rock and hard place in so far as that if I try to rationalize my intuitive feelings too much they may not be intuitive anymore.

Any suggestions?

 

[DepthTangent]

1. Is intuition the gateway to Universal Consciousness?
2. Is intuition the result of Passive Observation in the Theta state? Being 'in the zone'.
3. Is intuition the necessary staging post to true inspiration, the beginning of an infinite transcendental journey?

Is there such a concept as universal consciousness ? Is the great work that of acquiring universal consciousness within the fragmented condition ? What benefits could such a work provide ? Is such a transformation of any use on a practical level ? Is this work (and even partial completion) likely to be of more use than a simple moving average when making trading decisions ?

He who has the answers does not need to ask any questions. The more answers you have, the less communication is required, thus when taken to its extreme produces a rather bizzare outcome of isolation, unless you have like-minded individuals within proximity that can understand and share your genius. The genius of the origin, that which is all seeing, that in its entirety is everything that is, and is not. The great divisor, and truly remarkable.

Btw, all of the above was printed on some ticket I found at the bottom of a packet of corn flakes, I guess there must be a bored philosopher working for kellogs, so iam unable to verify its validity.

 

[rols]

Simple question really, and aimed at the more experienced traders.

Is trading by intuition the pinnacle of market understanding ?

I never did see what edge a simple moving average or any other so called indicator can provide one with, when you can see where the market has been going well before any "signal" is generated, and indeed when I started out trading, found that I was generally a loser using this kind of "technology". So, a basic understanding of cycles, parameters of vibrational force, assessment of general global stability, intermarket correlation followed by a quick glance at the respective charts does the business ?

Is there such a concept as universal consciousness ? Is this work (and even partial completion) likely to be of more use than a simple moving average when making trading decisions ?
.

He who has the answers does not need to ask any questions.

Au contraire!

 

[DepthTangent]

Au contraire!

Oops, looks like I've been rumbled.

 

[thepoliteone]

All quite similar to 'Trading In The Zone' by Douglas...taken a bit further which is interesting.

Thanks for the discussion guys, keep it going

-TPO.

 

[rols]

. Who ASC is and what he was trying to get across...........He's sitting right next to me watching me type this. Tingle on the back of the neck and right through my forearms...

Simon says "hi".

In Eleven Minutes, Paulo Coelho states

…really important meetings are planned by the souls long before the bodies see each other.
Generally, speaking, these meetings occur when we reach a limit, when we need to die and be reborn emotionally. These meetings are waiting for us, but more often than not, we avoid them happening. If we are desperate, though, if we have nothing to lose, or if we are full of enthusiasm for life, then the unknown reveals itself, and our universe changes direction.


Perhaps you might ask Simon for his thoughts on a previous post?

1. Is intuition the gateway to Universal Consciousness?
2. Is intuition the result of Passive Observation in the Theta state? Being 'in the zone'.
3. Is intuition the necessary staging post to true inspiration, the beginning of an infinite transcendental journey?

 

[TheBramble]

No, not as far as he is aware.

"If you get a ‘feeling’ and you’re thinking about what that feeling ‘means’ – that’s an intuition. If you’ve just ducked and are now looking at the flying mallet that has just missed your head – that’s instinct. You don’t think about instinct."

A lot of bods think what they want in trading is intuition; whereas it's really instinct they need.

 

[shadowninja]

Trading in the zone.