I Am So Lost!

BF1

Member
97 0
Thanks DaveT & Rognvald and all others that have posted so far. It certainly has given me plenty to explore.

I was under no illusions that trading was an easy way to make money. One saying that sticks in mind is "Trading is a hard way to make easy money"!

Thanks
Barry
 

schoe

Well-known member
343 3
Forget indicators, learn support, resistance, stop placement and money management when to reverse and when not to trade at all,ie recognising sideways price action. Start learning simple patterns such as consolidations which nearly always continue in the direction of the trend and give you a chance to put in fairly tight stops,see todays Euro/USD on fifteen min chart for a good example.
 

samuelhogg

Well-known member
259 5
I am glad I am not the only one, BF1 I am in the same boat! Any trade I make the price goes in the opposite direction that I want it to, but it makes me more determined to get it right next time. I am just trying to read as much as I can before I start trading again, any recommendations for money management books? Very tempted to make an appointment to see Naz.
Samuel
 

Trader777

Newbie
4 0
Forced Awareness

Hi BF1,

Been there and have the TShirt to prove it, but lost my shirt!

I call it Forced Awareness.....where the pain of loss just forces you to have insight into your mind, method, and money management deficiencies.I am a professional trader for a firm and the price I paid to get here would put most sane people off and back to 9-5pm land.

But if you have the fortitude...read on.

I am sure you have read some of the classics and that is a great start. I am an aquaintance of Mark Douglas and know he no longer mentor's trainees- be wary of those who claim to be wizards or great teachers. Most of the truly great trainers are down to earth guys who understand the struggle.There are a few books of merit I recommend apart from Mark's.

"Dancing with Lions" - by Trader X. An American also a friend of MD. A great book but you will need to order it from USA. Tells of his journey through losing it all then becoming a disciplined trader and doing very well to day. His boat didnt even sink during the recent hurricanes!

"Trading for a Living" - Alex Elder...easy to get hold of and addressess a number of pertinent issues.

"Financial Risk Taking" by Mike Elvin - a trader and psychologist who developed a whole sytem of learning with a workbook in the back to check off your progress .

But reading is only the beginning......get to know professional traders and find out how they got there. Then halve your postions, then halve them again until your exposure is very, very small. Then find a mentor...there are alot of nutters out there and Elvin's book describes a few to be wary of.

Having said that , I wish you every success and a safe journey. Its your personal journey and the price you pay is a personal thing.

But one rule above all.........ALWAYS USE STOPS....never trade without them


Trader777





BF1 said:
I don`t know whether I am coming or going. Having just lost a substantial amount of money, it dawned on me that I am not a trader, but a gambler.

My style was nothing more than the equivalent of picking a horse out of a hat and hoping for the best.

The good thing is that it has woken me up and in order for me to continue I MUST change. And what a difficult task that is in its self. My problems have been a lack of discipline in cutting losses, taking profits too soon, no stop losses, no system whatsoever, too emotional etc. etc.

The odds are so stacked against every trader that it is obvious to me that in order to succeed I have to be so much better than the rest.

But where to begin? Its like a massive jigsaw inside my head and I don`t know where to begin to assemble the pieces. Where do I get a system from? How do I know what indicators to use and when?

If anyone has experienced the above (Im sure some of you have) please would you be kind enough to tell me how you changed and where you sought the information required to trade successfully from?

Has anyone any experience of trading with a proven trader and did it prove helpful? If so, can anyone recommend a trader that coaches would be traders?

Thanks for any help/guidance.
 

BF1

Member
97 0
Hi Trader777 and thanks for your post.

I haven`t been trading for the last few months now, that big loss really shook me.
However, the desire to be successful at trading is still there. I decided to give it a break and will be looking to the new year with a clear mind to get back into it.

Only this time I will have stops at the forefront and working towards defining a system.

Thanks for the book suggestions.

All the best.



Trader777 said:
Hi BF1,

Been there and have the TShirt to prove it, but lost my shirt!

I call it Forced Awareness.....where the pain of loss just forces you to have insight into your mind, method, and money management deficiencies.I am a professional trader for a firm and the price I paid to get here would put most sane people off and back to 9-5pm land.

But if you have the fortitude...read on.

I am sure you have read some of the classics and that is a great start. I am an aquaintance of Mark Douglas and know he no longer mentor's trainees- be wary of those who claim to be wizards or great teachers. Most of the truly great trainers are down to earth guys who understand the struggle.There are a few books of merit I recommend apart from Mark's.

"Dancing with Lions" - by Trader X. An American also a friend of MD. A great book but you will need to order it from USA. Tells of his journey through losing it all then becoming a disciplined trader and doing very well to day. His boat didnt even sink during the recent hurricanes!

"Trading for a Living" - Alex Elder...easy to get hold of and addressess a number of pertinent issues.

"Financial Risk Taking" by Mike Elvin - a trader and psychologist who developed a whole sytem of learning with a workbook in the back to check off your progress .

But reading is only the beginning......get to know professional traders and find out how they got there. Then halve your postions, then halve them again until your exposure is very, very small. Then find a mentor...there are alot of nutters out there and Elvin's book describes a few to be wary of.

Having said that , I wish you every success and a safe journey. Its your personal journey and the price you pay is a personal thing.

But one rule above all.........ALWAYS USE STOPS....never trade without them


Trader777
 

breadman

Established member
526 25
BF1,

One bit of advice I would give you is to start trading at £1 a point when you start trading again. I think the biggest mistake new traders make is starting with to much money at risk. You must have had a big bet on the dow to lose £10000 in one trade. If you made £10000 in one year you would be doing well. You may also want to trade a demo account for 3 months just to get the feel of the markets again before you risk any money. Start on £1 for 2 months if you have 2 winning months go to £2, 2 more winning months go to £3 and so on. Winning in the markets is a long process.

Breadman
 

swingtrader77

Newbie
9 0
Lets talk....trading discipline

I AM EXACTLY THE SAME AND HAVE LOST SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNTS OF MONEY.....WELL OVER £100K

WE SHOULD TALK....

I live in London and work in London
Where do you live and work?
We should possibly meet up and share the experience....as bad as it is
Or just talk on the phone
I feel for you and I went onto the board just now to find and see if there was someone else in a similar position or whether I was the only stupid one (sorry to be blunt)

Let me know what you think

Regards
Vimal








BF1 said:
I don`t know whether I am coming or going. Having just lost a substantial amount of money, it dawned on me that I am not a trader, but a gambler.

My style was nothing more than the equivalent of picking a horse out of a hat and hoping for the best.

The good thing is that it has woken me up and in order for me to continue I MUST change. And what a difficult task that is in its self. My problems have been a lack of discipline in cutting losses, taking profits too soon, no stop losses, no system whatsoever, too emotional etc. etc.

The odds are so stacked against every trader that it is obvious to me that in order to succeed I have to be so much better than the rest.

But where to begin? Its like a massive jigsaw inside my head and I don`t know where to begin to assemble the pieces. Where do I get a system from? How do I know what indicators to use and when?

If anyone has experienced the above (Im sure some of you have) please would you be kind enough to tell me how you changed and where you sought the information required to trade successfully from?

Has anyone any experience of trading with a proven trader and did it prove helpful? If so, can anyone recommend a trader that coaches would be traders?

Thanks for any help/guidance.
 

Trdr

Well-known member
461 21
1st pdf: many charting programs have the means to program a trading system — AmiBroker, MetaStock, TradeStation, and there are user forums where various systems' code are posted. There are many developers of trading systems who write for those programs and offer various trials prior to purchase. There are also 'dedicated trading' charting programs that as above generate B/S signals. Also posts by people who use a discretionary trading system/method they've developed themselves. All systems should be paper traded to determine their realtime profit/loss, watching them work — or not — don't accept backtesting results.

2nd pdf: I'd recommend reading: ‘Elliott Wave Principle : Key to Market Behavior' by Frost and Prechter, but, from the point of view of a theory/explanation of Price Movement. Miner's message is very clear and accurate in describing EW.

3rd pdf: Miner again.

Personally I've not found a more accurate tool than the Fibonacci Price Levels tool (EW theory) with which to target future price levels -- tho it doesn't tell you how to trade. Besides what info is available on this site:
http://www.moneytec.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6660&highlight=fibonacci
 

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tommog

Well-known member
402 56
BF1,

Sorry to hear about your big loss. But one thing you can do to ensure it never happens again is only ever risk a maximum of 2% of your account on a trade so if your trading account is 10k pull the plug after you are £200 down.
You wisely woke up to the fact you were gambling not trading and it can appear a fine line to a newbie but there are certain things traders have in common. Every trader knows exactly why, where and when they will get out of a trade before they open a trade otherwise you are just hoping on luck.
There are certain key levels on a chart that you know,if breached, prove your entry to be incorrect (so for example you are long, you know if a long held support gives way you are in trouble). Make sure you get out of a trade after this level has been breached and you have not lost more than 2% of your account. This wont gaurantee you to be a profitable trader, but it will guarantee your losses to be manageable.

Tom
 

YachtFund

Active member
150 4
Found this on T2W somewhere. I have put this in my trading plan to know where I am:-

Step One: Unconscious Incompetence.

This is the first step you take when starting to look into trading. you know that its a good way of making money cos you've heard so many things about it and heard of so many millionaires.Unfortunately, just like when you first desire to drive a car you think it will be easy - after all, how hard can it be?? - price either moves up or down - what's the big secret to that then - lets get cracking!

unfortunately, just as when you first take your place in front of a steering wheel you find very quickly that you haven't got the first clue about what you're trying to do. you take lots of trades and lots of risks. when you enter a trade it turns against you so you reverse and it turns again .. and again, and again.

you try to turn around your losses by doubling up every time you trade - sometimes you'll get away with it but more often than not you will come away scathed and bruised

Well this is stage one - you are totally oblivious to your incompetence at trading.Stage one can last for a week or two of trading but the market is usually swift and you move onto stage two.

Stage Two - Conscious Incompetence

Stage two is where you realise that there is more work involved in this and that you might actually have to work a few things out.

you consciously realise that you are an incompetent trader - you don't have the skills or the insight to turn a regular profit.

During this phase you will buy systems and e-books galore, read websites based everywhere from Russia to the Ukraine. and begin your search for the holy grail.

During this time you will be a system whore - you will flick from method to method day by day and week by week never sticking with one long enough to actually see if it does work. every time you came upon a new indicator you'll be ecstatic that this is the one that will make all the difference.

you will test out automated systems on Meta-trader, you'll play with moving averages, Fibonacci lines, support & resistance, Pivots, Fractals, Divergence, DMI, ADX, and a hundred other things all in the vein hope that your 'magic system' starts today.

you'll be a top and bottom picker, trying to find the exact point of reversal with your indicators and you'll find yourself chasing losing trades and even adding to them cos you are so sure you are right.

You'll go into the live chat room and see other traders making pips and you want to know why it's not you - you'll ask a million questions, some of which are so dumb that looking back you feel a bit silly. You'll then reach the point where you think all the ones who are calling pips after pips are liars - they cant be making that amount cos you've studied and you don't make that, you know as much as they do and they must be lying. but they're in there day after day and their account just grows whilst yours falls.

You will be like a teenager - the traders that make money will freely give you advice but you're stubborn and think that you know best - you take no notice and over leverage your account even though everyone says you are mad to - but you know better.

you'll consider following the calls that others make but even then it wont work so you try paying for signals from someone else - they don't work for you either.

This phase can last ages and ages - in fact in reality it can last well over a year - My own period lasted about 18 months.

Eventually you do begin to come out of this phase. You've probably committed more time and money than you ever thought you would, lost 2 or 3 loaded accounts and all but given up maybe 3 or 4 times.

Then comes stage 3

Stage 3 - The Eureka Moment

Towards the end of stage two you begin to realise that it's not the system that is making the difference.

you realise that its actually possible to make money with a simple moving average and nothing else IF you can get your head and money management right

You start to read books on the psychology of trading and identify with the characters portrayed in those books.

Finally comes the eureka moment.

The eureka moment causes a new connection to be made in your brain.

you suddenly realise that neither you, nor anyone else can accurately predict what the market will do in the next ten seconds, never mind the next 20 mins.

You start to work just one system that you mould to your own way of trading, you're starting to get happy and you define your risk threshold.

You start to take every trade that your 'edge' shows has a good probability of winning with.

when the trade turns bad you don't get angry or even because you know in your head that as you couldn't possibly predict it it isn't your fault - as soon as you realise that the trade is bad you close it . The next trade will have higher odds of success cos you know your simple system works.

You have realised in an instant that the trading game is about one thing - consistency of your 'edge' and your discipline to take all the trades no matter what.

You learn about proper money management and leverage - risk of account etc etc - and this time it actually soaks in and you think back to those who advised the same thing a year ago with a smile

you weren't ready then, but you are now.

The eureka moment came the moment that you truly accepted that you cannot predict the market.

Then comes stage four

Stage 4 - Conscious Competence

Ok, now you are making trades whenever your system tells you to.

you take losses just as easily as you take wins

you now let your winners run to their conclusion fully accepting the risk and knowing that your system makes more money than it loses and when you're on a loser you close it swiftly with little pain to your account

You are now at a point where you break even most of the time - day in day out, you will have weeks where you make 100 pips and weeks where you lose 100 pips - generally you are breaking even and not losing money.

you are now conscious of the fact that you are making calls that are generally good and you are getting respect from other traders as you chat the day away.

You still have to work at it and think about your trades but as this continues you begin to make more money than you lose consistently.

you'll start the day on a 20 pip win, take a 35 pip loss and have no feelings that you've given those pips back because you know that it will come back again.

you will now begin to make consistent pips week in and week out 25 pips one week, 50 the next and so on.

this lasts about 6 months

then comes Stage Five

Stage Five - Unconscious Competence

Now were cooking - just like driving a car, every day you get in your seat and trade - you do everything now on an unconscious level.

you are running on autopilot. You start to pick the really big trades and getting 100 pips in a day is becoming quite normal to you.

This is trading utopia - you have mastered your emotions and you are now a trader with a rapidly growing account.

you're a star in the trading chat room and people listen to what you say. you recognise yourself in their questions from about two years ago.

you pass on your advice but you know most of it is futile cos they're teenagers - some of them will get to where you are - some will do it fast and others will be slower - literally dozens and dozens will never get past stage two but a few will.

Trading is no longer exciting - in fact it's probably boring you to bits - like everything in life when you get good at it or do it for your job - it gets boring - you're doing your job and that's that.

You can now say with your head held high "I'm a currency trader"
 

superspurs

Established member
618 138
thats me sorted,going thru stage 2 at the moment :eek: ,post saved and will read once a day from now on
 

YachtFund

Active member
150 4
I would probably put myself in stage 4 but I dont think its just about the pips, its about the probability as well. My systems dont make thousands of pips but the pips I do make have high probability and so it becomes more about managing my money correctly. So it could do with being re-written a little, but it still gives you a good idea of where you should be.
 

YachtFund

Active member
150 4
Being a Dirty Leeds fan I'm naturally pessimistic. Although using probabilities, when we get promoted there is a 100% chance of taking six points from Spurs.
 
 
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