How easy is paper trading, really?

[LP2]

I know this may be hard for some of you to believe but I can execute any plan I set (as long as it's mechanical & doesn't involve too much discretion). I don't think emotions play that big of a role to the point where someone who makes 100%+ P/A on a paper account can go to averaging 5% P/A (if they're lucky) when trading with real money.

If it's true that you can make money trading common chart patterns (breakouts, complex pullbacks, etc...) & the only thing stopping the average punter from making 50%+ per year is their inability to follow their plan properly then surely people would be able to generate 300%+ returns on paper accounts where there is ZERO emotion involved?

There's only 2 conclusions I can draw from this: either you can't make money in the stock market using T.A. patterns (the ones which do are outliers) or the people who claim that paper trading is easy are just lying to fit in & not feel like sore losers (also highly unlikely... or is it?).

 

[piphoe]

once REAL $ is on the line, it's hard. don't care who you are..or how much on the line

everyone want the win.

$100 dolla accout or a million dolla.

 

[piphoe]

and, everyone is thinking about scaling

well, how much could I make if I had a 5 million dolla account

i know its always on my mind

 

[piphoe]

i'm always doing that calculation

 

[LP2]

once REAL $ is on the line, it's hard. don't care who you are..or how much on the line

everyone want the win.

$100 dolla accout or a million dolla.

It's just as easy trading with real money as it is with paper, the reason people don't make money is because the patterns don't work not because they're not following their plan properly.

If you can make 100%+ P/A paper trading you should be able to easily at least make a quarter of that with real money (25%+ P/A).

If you're losing money when trading live yet you can make 50%+ with a paper account then there's only 2 possible scenarios: you're lying about your paper profits or you're doing everything right & the reason you're not making money live is because the patterns don't work.

 

[piphoe]

if you aren't in the inside, your on the outside

"i got 20 other brokers analyzing charts, don't need another.."

 

[LP2]

if you aren't in the inside, your on the outside

"i got 20 other brokers analyzing charts, don't need another.."

How has this got to do with anything I said?

 

[piphoe]

How has this got to do with anything I said?

don't know but its damn good ain't it :cheesy:

 

[Quantt]

I know this may be hard for some of you to believe but I can execute any plan I set (as long as it's mechanical & doesn't involve too much discretion). I don't think emotions play that big of a role to the point where someone who makes 100%+ P/A on a paper account can go to averaging 5% P/A (if they're lucky) when trading with real money.

If it's true that you can make money trading common chart patterns (breakouts, complex pullbacks, etc...) & the only thing stopping the average punter from making 50%+ per year is their inability to follow their plan properly then surely people would be able to generate 300%+ returns on paper accounts where there is ZERO emotion involved?

There's only 2 conclusions I can draw from this: either you can't make money in the stock market using T.A. patterns (the ones which do are outliers) or the people who claim that paper trading is easy are just lying to fit in & not feel like sore losers (also highly unlikely... or is it?).

It's not about easy/hard, it is about accuracy... Paper trading is simply not accurate... fills would be different... Chart patterns do not work for me, so I wont comment on that part, but 300% is impossible in the long run in real life...

 

[LP2]

It's not about easy/hard, it is about accuracy... Paper trading is simply not accurate... fills would be different... Chart patterns do not work for me, so I wont comment on that part, but 300% is impossible in the long run in real life...

I'm exaggerating about the 300% returns lol. But even if you account for inaccurate fills, my point still stands.

 

[mpups]

I don't think emotions play that big of a role...

Well you are mistaken then

 

[Brumby]

It's just as easy trading with real money as it is with paper, the reason people don't make money is because the patterns don't work not because they're not following their plan properly.

If you can make 100%+ P/A paper trading you should be able to easily at least make a quarter of that with real money (25%+ P/A).

If you're losing money when trading live yet you can make 50%+ with a paper account then there's only 2 possible scenarios: you're lying about your paper profits or you're doing everything right & the reason you're not making money live is because the patterns don't work.

Have you ever traded, I mean with real money? How do you know your conditional statements are even true to begin with? They are only assertions grounded in your own mind. If you want to be taken seriously I suggest you defend your binary outcome assertion between live trading and pattern based trading.

 

[LP2]

Have you ever traded, I mean with real money? How do you know your conditional statements are even true to begin with? They are only assertions grounded in your own mind. If you want to be taken seriously I suggest you defend your binary outcome assertion between live trading and pattern based trading.

I switched between trading with real money & using paper every month for 8 months to see if "emotion" had any impact on my results. It turns out I actually made more money when I used real money than when I was trading with a paper account. Of course this could have just been a total fluke, but I bet if you get more beginners to try this method they'll get similar results.

 

[Quantt]

I switched between trading with real money & using paper every month for 8 months to see if "emotion" had any impact on my results. It turns out I actually made more money when I used real money than when I was trading with a paper account. Of course this could have just been a total fluke, but I bet if you get more beginners to try this method they'll get similar results.

How long you have been trading and what kind of money were are talking about here, few hundred, few thousands, tens of thousands or more?

 

[LP2]

How long you have been trading and what kind of money were are talking about here, few hundred, few thousands, tens of thousands or more?

It was around twenty grand in total (10k real & 10k paper). I've been trying out different strategies for about a year with small accounts to see which one suits my personality the most & to get a feel of different markets @ different time frames.

 

[Dowser]

It was around twenty grand in total (10k real & 10k paper)

The question is: What is it now? :cheesy:

 

[Quantt]

It was around twenty grand in total (10k real & 10k paper). I've been trying out different strategies for about a year with small accounts to see which one suits my personality the most & to get a feel of different markets @ different time frames.

I guess all depends on the person and the amount of money... when I was starting long time ago, after reading some books (no YouTube back then ;-) and thought I had a strategy and started trading for sure I got excited when I was +$1000 and felt like $hit when I was -$1000, especially few days in a row (here goes the family vacation

But overtime you've seen it all and those become just numbers, some days, I don't even bother to check if I am up or down for the day and sometimes I even forget I have open trades until I get sms about a filling... I do check once a week all trades (if any) and keep a meticulous record: execution, size, buy, stop, sell, etc...

EDIT to clarify: In my case I am fully systematic/automated, so this helps me a lot with the psychological mambo jumbo...

 

[LP2]

The question is: What is it now? :cheesy:

I have around 12k in my real trading account.

 

[Brumby]

I switched between trading with real money & using paper every month for 8 months to see if "emotion" had any impact on my results. It turns out I actually made more money when I used real money than when I was trading with a paper account. Of course this could have just been a total fluke, but I bet if you get more beginners to try this method they'll get similar results.

Your primary assertion is that emotions do not impact a trader's performance. Your opinion is totally inconsistent with the body of evidence in the trader universe and would be an anomaly. Given that you are drawing such a conclusion based on 4 months of actual live trading (since you were alternating) I would explain it away as simply lack of sufficient engagement experience at your end. I am not discounting your personal testimony but when you are going against a predominant position, you would need much more substantial evidence than simply some limited engagement with the market on a live basis.

The other point I want to bring to the table is that random distribution of events (some may call luck) plays a much more significant role in short term results than is generally acknowledge. Below is the result of research study to demonstrate how randomness impacts the result of even a positive expectation system based on 100 traders trading 250 trades each.

 

[LP2]

Your primary assertion is that emotions do not impact a trader's performance. Your opinion is totally inconsistent with the body of evidence in the trader universe and would be an anomaly. Given that you are drawing such a conclusion based on 4 months of actual live trading (since you were alternating) I would explain it away as simply lack of sufficient engagement experience at your end. I am not discounting your personal testimony but when you are going against a predominant position, you would need much more substantial evidence than simply some limited engagement with the market on a live basis.

The other point I want to bring to the table is that random distribution of events (some may call luck) plays a much more significant role in short term results than is generally acknowledge. Below is the result of research study to demonstrate how randomness impacts the result of even a positive expectation system based on 100 traders trading 250 trades each.

I'll carry on trading to see if I get the same results. I already had a strong gut feeling that the results would turn out the way they would before I even started.

I'm thinking of pushing myself even further by trying to trade in a way that would cause as much psychological pain as possible...got any recommendations? (it must be a form of day-trading with strict risk management & a simple set-up)